David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Whatever it is, is must have a grace and beauty to go with the Random Nastyness. For, if you don't love the ship, it will surely fail you in battle... 
The Best and Worst Armageddon Level Ships
- Thread starter Triggy
- Start date
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
I've got my Vorlon CA (used it four times), my Centauri Adira (used it once), my ISA Victory (used it three times). They have all had strengths and weaknesses but served me well. I suppose they are like other ships, performing at their best in certain circumstances and with certain fleet compositions. I'm still waiting for my Neroon and am wondering just what size pie pan my Vree armageddon level ship will be made from
The Nemesis-class is definitely one of the runts of the litter but it's still not that bad. It suffers a lot from being an upgraded Warlock-class, which it can be directly compared to, and which is (in some minds) the best war priority ship.
It only goes up by about ten hit points and ten crew, has a very limited increase in firepower, and its extra interceptors deliver very diminished returns.
That said, it is a +1 CQ ship, has a HEL tracking array that can't be taken offline, and has a substantially better fighter wing (worth a raid point by itself).
Its main problem is that it has particular enemies that it excells at fighting. When facing minbari, for example, the HEL and shadowfury cover will definitely pull their weight. Against Narns, who lack stealth, have fighters that haven't a prayer of beating normal EA fighters and pulsar mines that can flatten any assault fighter, no matter how advanced, and it's basically a Warlock with no command bonus.
It only goes up by about ten hit points and ten crew, has a very limited increase in firepower, and its extra interceptors deliver very diminished returns.
That said, it is a +1 CQ ship, has a HEL tracking array that can't be taken offline, and has a substantially better fighter wing (worth a raid point by itself).
Its main problem is that it has particular enemies that it excells at fighting. When facing minbari, for example, the HEL and shadowfury cover will definitely pull their weight. Against Narns, who lack stealth, have fighters that haven't a prayer of beating normal EA fighters and pulsar mines that can flatten any assault fighter, no matter how advanced, and it's basically a Warlock with no command bonus.
Interestingly enough, my ratings are somewhat different, but Triggy and I are using very different calculation systems. I think it would be interesting to have a couple of experienced players who do not do ship calculations rate the War level ships in the order that they think they should go. Then we could post up their results along with Triggy’s and my own in one post. I would be interested to see the agreement between the lists and whether or not the “experience” ratings were in agreement with each other from independent sources. Any takers? Do you have a list for the War level ships yet Triggy.
These are my ratings of the Armageddon ships, these numbers are their totals divided by the average total for the Armageddon level:
Shadow Ship Ancient (2.40)
Victory/Excalibur (1.17)
Vorlon Heavy Cruiser (0.98)
Brivoki Advanced Warship (0.85)
Adira Royal Battleship (0.79)
Ka’Bin Tak Super Dreadnought (0.76)
Nerron Heavy War Carrier (0.71)
Amu Mothership (0.69)
Nemesis Advanced Destroyer (0.61)
I will just say now – my spreadsheets LOVE the Shadow ships. Judging by how they worked for me in the previous campaign, the spreadsheets may be right about that. (Though props to Laranos TZ for leaving me stymied many times with his Brakiri fleet).
These are my ratings of the Armageddon ships, these numbers are their totals divided by the average total for the Armageddon level:
Shadow Ship Ancient (2.40)
Victory/Excalibur (1.17)
Vorlon Heavy Cruiser (0.98)
Brivoki Advanced Warship (0.85)
Adira Royal Battleship (0.79)
Ka’Bin Tak Super Dreadnought (0.76)
Nerron Heavy War Carrier (0.71)
Amu Mothership (0.69)
Nemesis Advanced Destroyer (0.61)
I will just say now – my spreadsheets LOVE the Shadow ships. Judging by how they worked for me in the previous campaign, the spreadsheets may be right about that. (Though props to Laranos TZ for leaving me stymied many times with his Brakiri fleet).
…and now that I look back at Triggy’s post, I see that I am the victim of Thread Necromancy. Triggy’s list is for 1E (which I would have realized if I had not just woken up when I read it). Sorry for that….
Triggy – if you do have an Armageddon list calculated out, let me know.
-Humbaba
Triggy – if you do have an Armageddon list calculated out, let me know.
-Humbaba
Humbaba your clculating system looks a little off on some things, victory should be > than an Excaliur cause of crew...
The amu mothership's raiting i'm assuming doesn't cover every possible ship mix it's hangers can carry....
are u sure the neroon is that low with it's stealth and fighters?
The amu mothership's raiting i'm assuming doesn't cover every possible ship mix it's hangers can carry....
are u sure the neroon is that low with it's stealth and fighters?
EDFDarkAngel1
Mongoose
You only say that because mine wiped out your entire EA fleet without taking a single loss.
Dark Angel
Dark Angel
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Darken said:
Depending of course, on which direction the bow is pointing
Except for the Neroon. It is seriously fragile and undergunned by the standards of Armageddon ships.akenatum said:
They Shadow Omegas had no sign of shields in the show. Marcus stated that they had semi-organic hulls (self-repairing) but the White Star's opening volleys landed solidly on their hulls. I believe that the game stats should reflect what is seen on screen as best as possible.Tolwyn said:
I personally think that self-repair on large Hull 6 ships with Interceptors is actually pretty good. It takes a lot of work to claw these ships down. Plus the hidden bonus is that you never need to spend RR points repairing them in a campaign.
EDFDarkAngel1
Mongoose
If you want to talk about what the show appears to have, then we have to talk about the Boresighted White Star and why the Omega is boresight...
Dark Angel
Dark Angel
Court Jester
Mongoose
EDFDarkAngel1 said:
EDFDarkAngel1
Mongoose
I said if.
Dark Angel
Dark Angel
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
EDFDarkAngel1 said:
It never got fixed so yes, whoop on that dead pony....
Akenatum –
Naturally, I am aware of the limitations of any system of mere calculations as a single basis for making ship and fleet assessments, but it does produce some interesting results sometimes.
As for the Victory and the Excalibur, I will say that, although I did try to cram as many things into the system as I could, crew quality is not something that I included. For all calculations a crew quality of 4 is used, and it isn’t used all that often.
I did try to include different options for the Amu Mothership so as to hit its (calculation based) sweet-spot and I was a little surprised that it did not rate higher, given what it can carry aboard. The rating listed is about as high as I could come up with for it under the limitations of the system.
The Neroon, I feel, is placed correctly IMO, if not a little high. I have played the Minbari a bit, and I personally think the Neroon is one of those hybrid battle-carriers that fails in both roles. I am curious to hear if you have had any luck with it. Is anyone else willing to stand up out there with praise for the maligned Nerron? That is not to say that it can’t be effective, I just don’t think it is a very good design (and I am OK with that, BTW – I am not really looking for a change – especially as the mold collapsed).
Tschuma –
My calculations have reached about 80 MB of Excel spreadsheet space, so I am hard pressed to give it to you in all of its gory details, but the basic theory goes like this:
Calculate a defense factor based on the number of normal dice attacks (unmodified by traits) that it takes to destroy a ship (assuming that those dice come as two weapons per turn over five turns)(actually I use a weighted average of the dice to destroy, cripple, de-crew, skeleton, and inflict a crippling critical hit or multiple significant critical hits).
Calculate an attack factor based on the effective number of normal dice equivalent the ship attacks with (over a weighted average vs. hull 4, 5, and 6 targets) (and modified by factors for range and arcs, etc.).
Multiply the DF by the AF and by modifiers for movement and turn ratings and some other things (the devil is in the details here), add the total rating for the ships it carries, multiply by the number you get per class compared to Armageddon level (I assumed x2 per step as Raid is sort of a default level of play) and divide by 100 to make the number nice. That sums up the basics. The numbers above are all divided by the average of all the Armageddon level ships for ease of general comparison to each other.
Is the method sound? I have tried, but the calculation concept is limited. It does produce a lot of results that agree with conventional wisdom and some that are unexpected (for example it really likes the Ashinta Minbari escort – one of the best Raid level ships in the game according to these calculations). In short, it is what it is…
Thanks,
Humbaba
Naturally, I am aware of the limitations of any system of mere calculations as a single basis for making ship and fleet assessments, but it does produce some interesting results sometimes.
As for the Victory and the Excalibur, I will say that, although I did try to cram as many things into the system as I could, crew quality is not something that I included. For all calculations a crew quality of 4 is used, and it isn’t used all that often.
I did try to include different options for the Amu Mothership so as to hit its (calculation based) sweet-spot and I was a little surprised that it did not rate higher, given what it can carry aboard. The rating listed is about as high as I could come up with for it under the limitations of the system.
The Neroon, I feel, is placed correctly IMO, if not a little high. I have played the Minbari a bit, and I personally think the Neroon is one of those hybrid battle-carriers that fails in both roles. I am curious to hear if you have had any luck with it. Is anyone else willing to stand up out there with praise for the maligned Nerron? That is not to say that it can’t be effective, I just don’t think it is a very good design (and I am OK with that, BTW – I am not really looking for a change – especially as the mold collapsed).
Tschuma –
My calculations have reached about 80 MB of Excel spreadsheet space, so I am hard pressed to give it to you in all of its gory details, but the basic theory goes like this:
Calculate a defense factor based on the number of normal dice attacks (unmodified by traits) that it takes to destroy a ship (assuming that those dice come as two weapons per turn over five turns)(actually I use a weighted average of the dice to destroy, cripple, de-crew, skeleton, and inflict a crippling critical hit or multiple significant critical hits).
Calculate an attack factor based on the effective number of normal dice equivalent the ship attacks with (over a weighted average vs. hull 4, 5, and 6 targets) (and modified by factors for range and arcs, etc.).
Multiply the DF by the AF and by modifiers for movement and turn ratings and some other things (the devil is in the details here), add the total rating for the ships it carries, multiply by the number you get per class compared to Armageddon level (I assumed x2 per step as Raid is sort of a default level of play) and divide by 100 to make the number nice. That sums up the basics. The numbers above are all divided by the average of all the Armageddon level ships for ease of general comparison to each other.
Is the method sound? I have tried, but the calculation concept is limited. It does produce a lot of results that agree with conventional wisdom and some that are unexpected (for example it really likes the Ashinta Minbari escort – one of the best Raid level ships in the game according to these calculations). In short, it is what it is…
Thanks,
Humbaba
Humbaba - that is the basic method I use (with a few complications that I can either use or drop for speed)
The listings posted on post one are for Armageddon, I haven't done the ones for 2nd ed. yet but can post on the essentials to Tscuma and I will try and get round to it one day myself...
The listings posted on post one are for Armageddon, I haven't done the ones for 2nd ed. yet but can post on the essentials to Tscuma and I will try and get round to it one day myself...
I've never played with neroon nor seen one being used, was just curious i've seen a lot of trouble trying to break through stealth and although it is a hybraid ship battleship/carrier i thought that might help to raise it's potential... Guess it's one of those things that might apear good in theory but fails in practise.
Must say that the amu mother ships is a bit of a shock then even with it's "sweet spot".
In regards to crew quality, that tends to be used an inordinate amount arround here, which was why I was wondering about.
Must say that the amu mother ships is a bit of a shock then even with it's "sweet spot".
In regards to crew quality, that tends to be used an inordinate amount arround here, which was why I was wondering about.
