The Babylon 5 Companion

[Neo]

As I noted in another post (in the translators thread), I find the lack of a "Raider" class just as jarring as the inclusion of the "Lurker" class.

So... I would like to see a "Raider" class, either in the companion or as a download on the site.

Raider falls into just about every class though. There isn't a school for raiders somewhere LOL they're all those who become disenfranchised enough to seek money in a less than legit way with a modicum of piloting ability.

I think Raiders are more suited as a Prestige class as its something that happens to people "after" the career they were in.

Still they would make an handy NPC class I think.

 

[Darke]

I think the Raider is good as it is - as a Prestige Class (but I would prefer to call those classes Advanced Classes).

And the Lurker is good too - think of it as a "Lurker deluxe" as surely most of the "Lurkers" are more the like of NPC Classes.

das Darke

 

[Anonymous]

As was mentioned before, more equipment, but not just the weapons and a few others. All kinds of equipment from furniture for your accomodation to services, costs of drinks, food, and so on.
The random space-event table from Traveller D20 is a good idea for the kind of random lists that could be provided. Stats for thugs, diplomats and so on, of different levels and different specialities would be interesting.
Racial telepathic abilities if they are not going to be covered elsewhere.
Building/modifying your own spaceship (although that could be a whole book once the space-combat thing is worked out a little neater).
The SRD information, which shouldn't be more than 40 pages. A lot is mentioned and hinted on in the main book so there's not a huge amount to cover.
Plot hooks, not for episodes but for places, races, NPCs (core cast members and others), as well as advice on characterisation, actual roleplay, how to run games and storylines with little-to-no combat in them and so on. This is a game of intrigue, mystery, diplomacy and so on, there are not many fights and the RPG book iteslef mentions this, but does not give the d20-brainwashed public much more information. Perhaps a racial or organisation-based ability for diplomats working for certain people, so that they have more than abilities like 'call in a favour'. The Officer should also have certain 'group' or 'race'-based areas like "Black Omega" and such.
Finally perhaps alternate settings. As well as plot hooks for locations, ideas for an alternate B5 universe where a different race fell to the Shadows or different sides were warring or perhaps just replacing the ambassadors with PCs.

Charlie E/N

 

[psyclonejack]

It would seem that if the plan is to release this supplement after all the major races are detailed, then perhaps some form of consolidation would be in order.

I for one would not want to go hunting through various books and modules for new or modified feats that have appeared in this other material, so one of the possible inclusions could be to pool this 'new' material into this companion product.

If they list all the feats, resupply all the classes re-written, and place all the skills in The Babylon Companion. Why buy the Other books? Simply for the background info? Why not just wait and buy The Babylon companion? Cause it is sounding like (to me) You (alot that have posted) want an everthing in one book. That does not make sense to me, either logical or economical. But I can be dense as a pulsar some times.

So my suggestion would be make some reference charts or lists that show the book and page that the named feat could be found on. Perhaps group the feats by General, Racial, Whatever, etc. That way you could find them quicker in 'The other books'. Do the same for skills. But please DO NOT reprint any information that can be found in other books. REFERENCE it, yes. Why not reprint? Because, reprinting wastes pages, incurs more cost, and why do I want to buy something I already have. That's my biggest gripe with other companies. Look at TOC, skip what I already know, flip to middle of book start reading new stuff. YUCK! That is also one reason I like Mongoose products, they don't feed you baby food (stuff you know) before serving the steak.

Just my thoughts, take 'um or leave 'um.

 

[KDLadage]

...think of it as a "Lurker deluxe" as surely most of the "Lurkers" are more the like of NPC Classes.

das Darke

Exactly my point.

 

[KDLadage]

Raider falls into just about every class though. There isn't a school for raiders somewhere LOL they're all those who become disenfranchised enough to seek money in a less than legit way with a modicum of piloting ability.

I can see this. Then we need a basic "thug" class. In fact, the idea of the NPC "scaled down" classes is sounding more and more like what is truly needed.

I think Raiders are more suited as a Prestige class as its something that happens to people "after" the career they were in.

Again, when added to the point you make above, I agree. I think Raider as a prestige class is good, but we need a set of basic "lesser" or "typical person" NPC style classes.

Still they would make an handy NPC class I think.

True. But I think something akin to the basic THUG class (as presented in TRAPS AND TREACHERY perhaps) would work best.

 

[Greg Smith]

On the subjects of feats and skills, I don't own the Player's HB and was a little disapointed that after spending £23 on the B5 book, I would need to buy the PHB which has now been replaced by a newer version (I am assuming D&d 3rd is now OOP?).

So it would be nice to see those feats and skills listed somewhere.
The other thing I would like to see in the companion is loads of plot hooks.

 

[Traveller-61]

For example, this would be the perfect book to cover the smuggling of weapons on to the Babylon 5 station, the Drazi name generator elsewhere on this forum, planet/system generation rules, expanded equipment lists, spacecraft modification, etc. . .

All this will do very nicely thank you!!

I would like to see more background material (including plot hooks!) on the B5 universe - that way it can be useful no matter what sort of game you are running.

More Feats, skills etc ? No thanks - I think the main rule book does very well for those.

How about an expanded list of gereric NPCs like those 7 from the main rule book. Again useful for almost any sort of game.

Some information on the beasts of B5?

And of course if you are expanding starships then a proper discussion of the crews required (and what your PCs need to qualify for various posts); a simple system for customising vessels and some guidelines to drawing deck plans would all be much appreciated!

DW

PS. A Credit is worth about £1 (UK). JMS - Lurker's Guide.
Actually he said that it was about $2 US, £1 UK (as the exchange rate was at the time).

 

[Eryx]

I ask that you leave the classes alone - apart from Worker which needs something to make it attractive to players. Lurker is a fine class although I feel that it covers too big an area.

What I would like to see - not just in the Companion but in general - are:

* - A realspace map showing empire borders in a galaxy map (like Star Wars D20 has). I know that the jumpgate map is more useful but this is also a needed map I think.

* - League of Non-Aligned Worlds sourcebook.

* - Books like Fiery Trial that covers all five seasons, Crusade and other time periods.

* - Rules for trading/freight runs.

* - World Guides that focus on specific planets.

* - More feats that are not Psi based. This was a big complaint from one of my players. He felt that too many feats in the B5 core book were Telepath based.

* - Adventure modules. I know they don't make much money for a publisher but they are needed I think.

Thats what comes to mind right off the bat.

 

[KDLadage]

I ask that you leave the classes alone - apart from Worker which needs something to make it attractive to players. Lurker is a fine class although I feel that it covers too big an area.

I was going to post a bunch of thoughts here. Instead I will simply say that I disagree for reasons already expressed, and a few others as well.

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that what I had wanted and expected of a d20 treatment of Babylon-5 and what most people wanted and expected of a d20 treatment of Babylon-5 are two very distinct, and different things. Mongoose did well to build this game to the expectations of the majority. I am just not in it, that's all.



I suppose I can live with that.

 

[MongooseMatt]

It doesn't make your comments any less valid, KDLadage - I am making notes for them all!

 

[Bekenn]

I have an idea... how about a "Co-Edited by Bekenn" credit? :wink:

 

[Eryx]

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that what I had wanted and expected of a d20 treatment of Babylon-5 and what most people wanted and expected of a d20 treatment of Babylon-5 are two very distinct, and different things. Mongoose did well to build this game to the expectations of the majority. I am just not in it, that's all.



I suppose I can live with that.

Sure, everyone wants something different. I wouldn't have made the game a D20 product personally as I don't think the system fits a sci-fi setting.

 

[KDLadage]

Sure, everyone wants something different. I wouldn't have made the game a D20 product personally as I don't think the system fits a sci-fi setting.

Well... I think d20 is a fine system, and can certainly be used effectively in a sci-fi setting (although I would personally borrow more from d20 Modern than d20 Fantasy)... and I feel that the system, if used correctly, should simply melt into the background and be as unobtrusive as possible...

d20 is fine. I think it can work, work well, and not have to do back flips to get the job done. I just disagree with some of the choices that were made. For example (and some will find these repeat other threads, other posts etc):

• I would have included all of the rules that I could legally include. Given that the d20 system can change, evolve and shift without consulting the 3rd party companies... including what was intended to be the flavor of d20 you are going for seems an important step.
• I would never have included a LURKER class. Lurker is a condition (a social condition), not a class. Most should be stated up as out of work, down on their luck type people... nothing more.
• Using either a BACKGROUND skills mechanic, or something like the "starting occupation" mechanic from d20 Modern, and combining this with the "ability tree" mechanic from d20 Modern, I would have had the classes and characters be a lot more customizable than they are now. In any modern setting, the classes need to be painted with a broad brush, with finer brushes stacked on it for the details.
• Rather than Worker and Lurker classes, I would have included a basic Citizen class that, when combined with something like the "starting occupation" and "ability tree" mechanics would allow for virtually any number of variations. Thus, as you wrote racial-books, you can include racially specific "starting occupations" and "ability trees" to customize the classes without introducing new classes...
• Hit points... although I agree that they need to be kept low; I disagree with how this was accomplished. CON should have an impact, even if only once. I have toyed with several ideas for Hit Points in this game and setting and think I have how I would do it at this point. I would start all characters with 10 hit points (1) and then add the FORTITUDE SAVE. This mimics the Defense Value mechanic nicely, keeps them low, uses CON as a modifier once and keeps things simple.
• and so on...

But that is just me, I am sure.



(1) I say 10, because that is where the Defense Value begins before you add in the Reflex Save (an inspired mechanic, in my opinion). However, considering that Reflex Saves can start at +2, I would (if I were designing the game from scratch) begin at 8 + Reflex. This makes the max Defense Value 20 + DEX mod -- and feels rather clean, in my opinion. Thus, if you stick with 10+ for Defense, I would stick with 10+ for HP; otherwise, both would become 8+. The total HP would then be modified by a size multiplier.

 

[KDLadage]

As I noted in another post (in the translators thread), I find the lack of a "Raider" class just as jarring as the inclusion of the "Lurker" class.

Raider falls into just about every class though. There isn't a school for raiders somewhere LOL they're all those who become disenfranchised enough to seek money in a less than legit way with a modicum of piloting ability.

As I have indicated -- I have come to agree with this point. Raider should remain a Prestige (or Advanced) class, as it is not something you start off doing.

But by that token, should not Lurker be the same way? Who has ever set out to become a Lurker? Are they not just those that have 'become disenfranchised (read: down on their luck) enough to seek money in a less than legit way (read: begging and scrounging Down Below)'?

 

[CARTMAG]

I dont think they could use any D20 modern for the simple fact i dont belive D20 Modern is Open source. so i dont belive Mongoose had any option there.

personaly i have no problems with them not including the 40 od pages from the Players Handbook maby thats because I already own it so it never did bother me. I much prefer the way Mongoose did it. id rather have more backround content then more mechanics in the book. come on people you already new that one person in the group would have to own the Players guide to play any D20 game. because there is stuff that just CANT be re-printed anywhere but in the Main book IE the Level requirments. that is something you need the players handbook for. and thoes 40 od paiges are already in a book you need anyway so why reprint when 99% of the people buying your products already have the book that thoes pages are in.

 

[KDLadage]

I dont think they could use any D20 modern for the simple fact i dont belive D20 Modern is Open source. so i dont belive Mongoose had any option there.

Your belief that d20 Modern is not open source does not change the fact that d20 Modern is, in fact, open source. The d20 Modern SRD is available from the Wizards website and may be used just like the d20 (Fantasy) SRD can be used.

personaly i have no problems with them not including the 40 od pages from the Players Handbook maby thats because I already own it so it never did bother me.

Which version of the PHB do you own? Is it the 3.0 version? The 3.5 version?

Finding a copy of the 3.0 version of the PHB is going to get pretty tough soon. All those people with the v3.5 players handbook are screwed, because several things that are assumed in the B5RPG are simply not true in v3.5 (for example, check out the feat AMBIDEXTERITY; this is but one very simple example of what I am talking about).

Many people are glossing this over, but I think it is more significant than most believe; and it will only get more significant the more time passes and the 3.0 PHB becomes more and more rare. What will a new player to this game use in 12 months?

I much prefer the way Mongoose did it. id rather have more backround content then more mechanics in the book.

And I would rather have a complete set of rules, rather than one that asks me to either locate an out of print book, or print out 40+ pages of material in order to use my $45 game.

come on people you already new that one person in the group would have to own the Players guide to play any D20 game. because there is stuff that just CANT be re-printed anywhere but in the Main book IE the Level requirments. that is something you need the players handbook for.

The d20 System Trademark License only bars you from having rules in the game dealing with (a) stat generation and (b) xp application. For that, you need to either have the PHB, or remove the d20 logo and have the game released as OGL (ie: Everquest, Mutants and Masterminds, etc.) Anything (and everything) else, in a book that claims to be a Role Playing Game (as opposed to a Campaign Setting) needs to be there.

IMHO.

and thoes 40 od paiges are already in a book you need anyway so why reprint when 99% of the people buying your products already have the book that thoes pages are in.

(feeling like a broken record again...) Because the PHB can change -- as it just did. And it can change fundamental things like basic feats and skills. And if your game assumes the use of those basic feats and skills, and they are altered significantly, or removed or what-have-you, then you find yourself referencing material that no longer exists.

Again, in a Campaign Setting book (such as the Forgotten Realms Campgin Setting, the Scarred Lands, or even my own UMBRAGIA material) this is acceptable. In a Role Playing Game book (such as Everquest, Mutants and Masterminds, and THE BABYLON 5 ROLEPLAYING GAME AND FACTBOOK) this material simply needs to be there.

End of story. (imho, ymmv, yada yada yada)

 

[CARTMAG]

yes its gona be in about a year and a half when the 3.0 version is hard to find. they have printed so many its gona take a long time before you cant get your hands on it.and if you dont want to spend the money just download the PDF version of the Player Handbook. just use KAZAA and you should find it easily. and two actualy the changes arent as glaring as you think. yes some feats have changed. not many but a few. and thoes feats are easily modified. two the classes have changed. but that dosent effect B5 because they have there own classes. spells have changed but again that dosent effect B5 since no mages. but other then that the majority of stuff is the same. most of the skills are also the same.

iv looked over D20 modern also and it has some galaring holes in it. and if you dont like things change them yourself. you realise that thats one of the fun things about Roll Playing its called Home Brewed house rules. you dont like a rule change it. you dont like a class create your own one that you do like. modifie it untill your satisfied.

and also remember B5 was originaly created using the 3.0 rules. 3.5 wasnt around at that time.

 

[KDLadage]

yes its gona be in about a year and a half when the 3.0 version is hard to find.

Wrong. In the area I live in right now, you cannot get it. All of the stores I have been to have already stated they cannot order the old one, either.

they have printed so many its gona take a long time before you cant get your hands on it.and if you dont want to spend the money just download the PDF version of the Player Handbook. just use KAZAA and you should find it easily.

So your solution to the fact that the game is using an outdated version of the rules is to STEAL the book by downloading an ILLEGAL copy of it from KAZAA? OK... not the most ethical way of doing this, but I gues it works...

...if you think having to print 40+ pages of data to that you have all of the rules that should have been included in your $45 rulebook is acceptable...

and two actualy the changes arent as glaring as you think. yes some feats have changed. not many but a few. and thoes feats are easily modified.

...and some are missing. And some skills ahve changed... etc. It may not seem significant to you, but someone wanting to play this game who is not familiar with the Dungeons and Dragons rules is not going to like this. I know. I have two players like that in my game now...

two the classes have changed. but that dosent effect B5 because they have there own classes. spells have changed but again that dosent effect B5 since no mages. but other then that the majority of stuff is the same.

Agreed.

most of the skills are also the same.

Most is not all, my friend.

iv looked over D20 modern also and it has some galaring holes in it.

OK... I disagree. But let us assume that I understand what you are talking about... your point would be?

and if you dont like things change them yourself.

I do not mind changing things. Never said I did. Please point out where I am mistaken in this regard. But I do not think that having an incomplete set of rules, such as rules that refer to items that are no longer an option in the current incanation of the rules, forcing me to write them myself because someone felt that 40 pages of material was too much to include is fair.

you realise that thats one of the fun things about Roll Playing its called Home Brewed house rules.

Some like to make house rules. Others hate it. Do not assume that your own idea of fun is universal. Even in a nitch hobby.

you dont like a rule change it. you dont like a class create your own one that you do like. modifie it untill your satisfied.

This is no excuse for incomplete rules to begin with.

and also remember B5 was originaly created using the 3.0 rules. 3.5 wasnt around at that time.

I am fully aware of this. The fact that 3.5 was not out yet is MY POINT EXACTLY! 3.5 has been announced for a long, long time. Mongoose knew it was coming... and left out the rules anyway. A poor choice in my opinion.

Now, back to something you stated earlier -- advocating that someone should download illegal copies of the rules from KAZAA. Let me assure you, sir, that some people feel that copyright is a good and needed legal concept. Some of us respect those laws. Some of us respect Wizards of teh Coasts' right to maintain thier copyrights. Thus, we feel that KAZAA and its ilk are an abomination on the face of civilization.

Now, I understand that it si quite possible that you are not aware that PHB != SRD. You can doenload the SRD from Wizards' site. This is legal, ethical and perfectly acceptable. You cannot download the PHB. This is illegal, unethical and completely unacceptable. I certainly hope you can appreciate and understand the difference.

 

[Purkle-chan]

I've avoided posting this, untill now, as it always seems that the whole issue of what should have been in the main book, but wasn't, could easilly turn into a flame war.

Yes there is stuff missing that could have been printed in the B5 book, but Mongoose made the decision not to. One that they've made with the other settings they've put out. Which are all, as far as I'm aware, called RPG's, rather than 'settings books'. I, personally, have no problem with how the products are advertised.

That said, B5 was developed using 3.0 rules. It was just unfortunate that some of what it refrences was altered/whatever from 3.5. I don't see this as that much of a problem. Yes, they're no longer printing that version of the phb, but they're not printing the second ed stuff anymore either, and you can usually pick that up from ebay and the likes.

But I'm sure you'll make yet another statement about how Mongoose should just have gone ahead and printed the stuff anyway. Which would just lead to most D20 products doing the same, and ending up with both redundancy and eventually errors in some products because they've copied from a copy from a copy and gotten something wrong.

However, one possible solution to the issue created by the 3.0/3.5 changes would be for Mongoose to include the affected material, and only said material, in something such as this proposed supliment.

Oh, and Cartmag, Kazaa is the spawn of Satan, and there's no need to encourage piracy. Your point about changing rules makes the assumption that people know them to change them, for someone new to the hoby that's going to be difficult.