Tales of the Black Kingdoms

[Nickbergquist]

Everyone, please feel free to post comments or ask me questions (post me a message for fastest response) when Tales shows up. I had a lot of fun writing it and would love some feedback. I am also curious if it contains any additional material by other authors, or if it is exclusively my trilogy of scenarios (esp. since it seems to have gone from 64 to 80 pages).

 

[thulsa]

I am also curious if it contains any additional material by other authors, or if it is exclusively my trilogy of scenarios (esp. since it seems to have gone from 64 to 80 pages).

Pardon me if this is a silly question, but I take this to mean that you, as the author, have not actually seen/proofread/reviewed the final product before it went to the presses?

I know there are dedicated proofreaders at Mongoose, but I think the author should at least be given the chance to look over the final product before it ships, since you may be able to spot mistakes that the proofreaders couldn't possibly detect (since they didn't write the actual thing).

The Shadizar map fiasco, for example, would very likely be prevented if Vincent had looked over the final product (in electronic form) before it went to press. (As far as I know, he did not get to look at the map (or the books?), maybe I'm wrong...).

That said, I'm awaiting Tales of the Black Kingdom with great interest and hope I'll be able to use it very soon in my own campaign. May have to bump the levels of NPCs up a bit, however, since my players are at 7th-8th level. How easy is it to adjust to higher-level play?

- thulsa

 

[Jason Durall]

I know there are dedicated proofreaders at Mongoose, but I think the author should at least be given the chance to look over the final product before it ships, since you may be able to spot mistakes that the proofreaders couldn't possibly detect (since they didn't write the actual thing).

If Mongoose got authors to approve final layout, they would be among the first in the gaming industry to do so. In fact, they'd be in a tiny subset of publishers (of anything) if they did that.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not very common, by a long shot.

I've been freelancing in the pen and paper industry for something like 12 years, and have only seen that from one company, and only, I think, because my editor there knows I used to be a professional editor and proofreader.

 

[Raphael]

As a writer and editor I can sympathize with both sides.

"Every writer needs an editor and every editor needs a drink."
-unknown source

 

[The King]

Pen & paper industry will make a great step toward progress and respect/acknowledgement when they implement something like Quality Control which is now usual in the video game industry for example.
These books are comparatively quite expensive and graphics are pleasant enough to have them figure in any bookcase.
I think therefore it would be excellent if the contents were as pleasant as the form.

 

[Jason Durall]

Pen & paper industry will make a great step toward progress and respect/acknowledgement when they implement something like Quality Control which is now usual in the video game industry for example.
These books are comparatively quite expensive and graphics are pleasant enough to have them figure in any bookcase.
I think therefore it would be excellent if the contents were as pleasant as the form.

Please note that while I'm not defending the practice of an author not seeing galley proofs, it's just not a common practice, anywhere.

I've been a professional editor, proofer, author, worked with newspapers and magazines, and am currently a freelancer and proofreader for Mongoose in addition to my full-time job in the computer game industry, so believe me when I say not just the pen-and-paper industry but all publishing could benefit from such practices.

However, usually, the issue is just time.

 

[Samvail1]

Pen & paper industry will make a great step toward progress and respect/acknowledgement when they implement something like Quality Control which is now usual in the video game industry for example.
These books are comparatively quite expensive and graphics are pleasant enough to have them figure in any bookcase.
I think therefore it would be excellent if the contents were as pleasant as the form.

Dont forget that playtestes have a significant input into the content of the books. Our job is to make sure the content is balanced, works within established guidelines and is correct in it's details.

Sam

 

[The King]

Pen & paper industry will make a great step toward progress and respect/acknowledgement when they implement something like Quality Control which is now usual in the video game industry for example.
These books are comparatively quite expensive and graphics are pleasant enough to have them figure in any bookcase.
I think therefore it would be excellent if the contents were as pleasant as the form.

Please note that while I'm not defending the practice of an author not seeing galley proofs, it's just not a common practice, anywhere.

I've been a professional editor, proofer, author, worked with newspapers and magazines, and am currently a freelancer and proofreader for Mongoose in addition to my full-time job in the computer game industry, so believe me when I say not just the pen-and-paper industry but all publishing could benefit from such practices.

However, usually, the issue is just time.

Jason, I am working in the translation & interpreter fields and many things that go to print are presented to a proof-reader (who may or may not be the same person) before the final stage of the process.
The same is true for many printed works (be it ads, text or whatever else).
I do not criticize when it is not done because I know very well that such process involves time (printing delay) and money (to pay for the proofreader).
Quality Control is now establishing at every level to prevent complaints (just imagine a mistake in an ads located the 2nd page of the Washington Post!)
Nowadays Customers are much more demanding and I am pretty sure that quality control could lead to sales increase.
Frankly when you look at a book full of typos (I don't mention any example deliberatly because I don't target anything) would you read it till the end or would you even buy it knowing of this?

RPGs exist now for 31 years old. Publishers should take this into consideration because it has become a lasting hobby and the age levels of players is more spread now when it touched mostly teenagers some years ago.

So please don't take it as a critic to the developper/writer but as a wish directed towards the publishers (and IMO a logical expectation).

 

[The King]

Pen & paper industry will make a great step toward progress and respect/acknowledgement when they implement something like Quality Control which is now usual in the video game industry for example.
These books are comparatively quite expensive and graphics are pleasant enough to have them figure in any bookcase.
I think therefore it would be excellent if the contents were as pleasant as the form.

Dont forget that playtestes have a significant input into the content of the books. Our job is to make sure the content is balanced, works within established guidelines and is correct in it's details.

Sam

Yes but playtest could (and should) have prevented the Shadizar map incident for instance.
Even if this will be rectified in the end, this was a true waste of time and money for Mongoose (not counting people who didn't buy the box because they knew about this).
Quality control is just that: to ensure that costs stay at their level. With time the cost for the implementation is reduced with the higher rating of cost efficency (because - in theory - if error = 0, then loss = 0). I don't invent anything this is just a concept stemming from the US marketing.
It is already applied everywhere in the industry as well as in the services and its name is : ISO (international organization for standardization).

 

[Samvail1]

Pen & paper industry will make a great step toward progress and respect/acknowledgement when they implement something like Quality Control which is now usual in the video game industry for example.
These books are comparatively quite expensive and graphics are pleasant enough to have them figure in any bookcase.
I think therefore it would be excellent if the contents were as pleasant as the form.

Dont forget that playtestes have a significant input into the content of the books. Our job is to make sure the content is balanced, works within established guidelines and is correct in it's details.

Sam

Yes but playtest could (and should) have prevented the Shadizar map incident for instance.
Even if this will be rectified in the end, this was a true waste of time and money for Mongoose (not counting people who didn't buy the box because they knew about this).
Quality control is just that: to ensure that costs stay at their level. With time the cost for the implementation is reduced with the higher rating of cost efficency (because - in theory - if error = 0, then loss = 0). I don't invent anything this is just a concept stemming from the US marketing.
It is already applied everywhere in the industry as well as in the services and its name is : ISO (international organization for standardization).

Shadizar
Although I wasn't involved with that particular playtest, I can tell you without a shadow of doubt, that a playtester will have never seen the map. As with all artworks, they are never shown to us. At best, we will receive pencil sketches of maps with adventures. We only ever see author manuscript.

Your right about the waste of money for Mongoose. I was put off from purchasing Shadizar because of the map problem. However, please bear in mind the extreme amount of material which Mongoose deliver (I am personally working on 4 different playtests at the moment), and the stress which goes with working in such an environment. The quality of Mongoose product has improved beyond recognition in the past year.

Sam

 

[thulsa]

If Mongoose got authors to approve final layout, they would be among the first in the gaming industry to do so. In fact, they'd be in a tiny subset of publishers (of anything) if they did that.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not very common, by a long shot.

Well, maybe, considering Mongoose's history of sloppy editing and/or lack of quality control, they should consider it anyway, regardless of what other companies do...?

However, please bear in mind the extreme amount of material which Mongoose deliver (I am personally working on 4 different playtests at the moment), and the stress which goes with working in such an environment.

The fact that Mongoose prints a lot of books is not a valid excuse for bad quality in a lot of those books. If they cannot keep up quality with their current tempo, they need to slow down their printing schedule or hire more people.

I would much rather wait an additional month or two to get a book where typos, unclear rules, missing paragraphs, wrong statblocks, and unusable maps had been removed through review and proofreading. By rushing (and not properly reviewing) books, both Mongoose and we as customers end up wasting more time and money on second printings and re-issued maps.

- thulsa

 

[Arkobla Conn]

The fact that Mongoose prints a lot of books is not a valid excuse for bad quality in a lot of those books. If they cannot keep up quality with their current tempo, they need to slow down their printing schedule or hire more people.

I would much rather wait an additional month or two to get a book where typos, unclear rules, missing paragraphs, wrong statblocks, and unusable maps had been removed through review and proofreading. By rushing (and not properly reviewing) books, both Mongoose and we as customers end up wasting more time and money on second printings and re-issued maps.

- thulsa

it's hard to argue with this logic. I feel the same...especially now that so much has been released. Take the time, do it right! And for gosh sakes, let someone see a draft final copy before you go into full production!

 

[Samvail1]

The fact that Mongoose prints a lot of books is not a valid excuse for bad quality in a lot of those books. If they cannot keep up quality with their current tempo, they need to slow down their printing schedule or hire more people.

I would much rather wait an additional month or two to get a book where typos, unclear rules, missing paragraphs, wrong statblocks, and unusable maps had been removed through review and proofreading. By rushing (and not properly reviewing) books, both Mongoose and we as customers end up wasting more time and money on second printings and re-issued maps.

- thulsa

I refer you back to my previous comment about the vast improvement of quality in Mongoose product. Shadizar being the exception. How many other products have been released this year without problems? A lot.

Still, when all is said and done, quality should be expected in any product. Mistakes are, sadly, inevitable. The test comes when a mistake occurs, how does the company react to correct the mistake? In Mongooses case, when the Shadizar error was first flagged they moved pretty quickly to comission a new map and apologise for the error. Even promising to replace the defective map. Surely that deserves a little respect.

Sam[/i]

 

[The King]

When I refered to the Shadizar incident I wasn't meaning the plagiarism (or is it a fraud?) of course because nobody can prevent such things.
But anyone with some knowledge of the Hyborian world would have noticed this map couldn't be possibly Shadizar.
A canal is very expensive to build and I can't imagine the city of sin having such a broad canal crossing the whole city. Just imagine what was done in the ancient times: only the noble quarters (and some of the richest merchants) would have such luxuuous architectural enhancement. Moreover Shadizar is located in a somewhat arid region.
I am sure that Vincent (Darlage) who wrote the books would agree and as an "Howard scholar" would never have approved such a map that would better suit a port city.
It would be good if the author of sourcebooks could also provide some sketch maps (and if you look at his site you'll see that Vincent is pretty good at drawing) on which a professional cartographer would then work.

 

[Oly]

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone know when this is due to be on the shelves of shops in the UK?

Oly

 

[Jason Durall]

Changing the subject slightly, does anyone know when this is due to be on the shelves of shops in the UK?

Oly

By all means, let's get back to discussing the product in the header.

I saw it in the FLGS yesterday, but am currently on a spending freeze on new game materials until a few things happen, so I couldn't pick it up. It did look quite nice, and will certainly be at the forefront of things I will pick up once the spending floodgate is opened.

 

[Nickbergquist]

I am also curious if it contains any additional material by other authors, or if it is exclusively my trilogy of scenarios (esp. since it seems to have gone from 64 to 80 pages).

Pardon me if this is a silly question, but I take this to mean that you, as the author, have not actually seen/proofread/reviewed the final product before it went to the presses?

I know there are dedicated proofreaders at Mongoose, but I think the author should at least be given the chance to look over the final product before it ships, since you may be able to spot mistakes that the proofreaders couldn't possibly detect (since they didn't write the actual thing).

The Shadizar map fiasco, for example, would very likely be prevented if Vincent had looked over the final product (in electronic form) before it went to press. (As far as I know, he did not get to look at the map (or the books?), maybe I'm wrong...).

That said, I'm awaiting Tales of the Black Kingdom with great interest and hope I'll be able to use it very soon in my own campaign. May have to bump the levels of NPCs up a bit, however, since my players are at 7th-8th level. How easy is it to adjust to higher-level play?

- thulsa

Hmmm! Unexpected turn on my post, here.

As a quick response to you, I can say that yes, I agree that if the author gets a final crack at editing/proofing the manuscript then that would certainly help to catch errors only he might notice; but likewise, the author is also likely to miss errors which are readily overlooked when one is a bit too familiar with the source material. However....

The author/publisher relationship is such that usually, once the manuscript has been purchased (on a contract basis, usually, paid by word or sometimes with royalties and other amenities) then the manuscript is effectively out of the author's hands, and it is almost unheard of for the author to gain access to his manuscript later on in the editing/proofing process, unless that author is also doubling for one of those positions and is on staff with the publisher. Since I am free lance, I am not actually an employee at Mongoose. But I assure you, if Mongoose wanted to hire me full time, I'd be happy to do it.

Anyway, I definitely agree with you that the more hands-on an author can be with his product, the likelier it will be that goofs and errata can be caught (in some cases, at least) but unfortunately, the nature of the business just makes such a relationship too difficult for most to entertain. Adding in art/design issues to the matter (such as with the map) makes that even more unlikely, unless the author is also doubling up on his duties on staff. And I might suggest, too, that sometimes the proofing errors happen precisely because one person is in too much control of a project; if you have three or four people on a project, that's three or four chances to catch a glitch, whereas one man doing all the work is much likelier to miss out on something he has a blind eye to.

That said....since I know the size of the manuscript I submitted, I am therefore eager to see how much of the end content is added material/art/maps, etc. Actually, from what I provided for the book, it very likely is comprised only of my manuscript (which I think would come out to about 80 pages after adding art/maps). Anyway, I should have a copy pretty soon, so all shall be revealed...

 

[thulsa]

And I might suggest, too, that sometimes the proofing errors happen precisely because one person is in too much control of a project; if you have three or four people on a project, that's three or four chances to catch a glitch, whereas one man doing all the work is much likelier to miss out on something he has a blind eye to.

I didn't say that the author should be doing all the proofreading himself -- but that letting the author have a final read-through/review would improve the quality of the final product.

For example, when I wrote Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia for Necromancer Games, they sent me a draft PDF file before the book went to print. My review helped identify several typos, layout issues, statblock errors, missing details on maps, and so on. All of which were fixed before the book was printed. A definite improvement on quality.

That said....since I know the size of the manuscript I submitted, I am therefore eager to see how much of the end content is added material/art/maps, etc. Actually, from what I provided for the book, it very likely is comprised only of my manuscript (which I think would come out to about 80 pages after adding art/maps). Anyway, I should have a copy pretty soon, so all shall be revealed...

I got my copy from Mongoose today. The book is indeed 80 pages. From what I've read so far, it looks like a very solid book with 3 interesting adventures with definite swords & sorcery flavor. Nice work!

On the negative side, I noticed that the maps (which are otherwise good) are missing a scale indicator, which is unfortunate.

Also, as mentioned in my original post, I'll have to boost the levels of most NPCs to use this book in my own campaign, where the players are 7th-8th level. Of course, that's not a fault of the book itself, but it introduces some extra work on my part. Apart from that, I think I can use the adventures as written.

Now, back to reading...

- thulsa

 

[René]

What is the additional material? S&P reprints (e.g. Spirit eaters of Darfar) or new stuff?

Is the book full colour or black & white?

 

[Oly]

Well answering my own question I managed to pick up a copy last night from the game store near my office.

Answering René the book is all black and white, well apart from the cover.

From having a quick flip through there doesn't appear to be any real additional information on the Black Kingdoms other than what's in each adventure. The only generic information seems to be a small bestiary at the back of the book.

Regards,

Oly