System Traffic/Ship Volumes and Numbers

sideranautae said:
GypsyComet said:
The solution is to increase the number of Tenders and have a working reserve of X-Boats. Tenders can carry as many as four X-Boats, and with a little working reserve can still easily launch one a day while retrieving the incoming. With an extra tender (assuming 1.5 per leg with a minimum of +1)

In a fairly busy system you would need more than 2 Tenders. Easier to build an X-boat with M-drive. Also, in a fairly short time period (given a large empire) X-Boats will be crashing into GG's before a tender can reach them. NOT a viable situation.

If a system has two legs of the X-Boat route coming in, it gets three tenders. Hubs with four or five legs of the network coming in get six or seven Tenders.

A gas giant's jump horizon is way, waaay out there. If the gas giant is in the habit of catching incoming X-Boats it probably will have a Tender all its own. Also, even X-Boats have attitude motors and can probably muster a tenth G in a pinch. X-Boats without M-Drive are an artifact of the original edition, which couldn't squeeze a J-4 design together with any M-Drive. Mongoose has options to allow enough space, but lacks the M-1 option for a 100-ton hull. Handwaving is required, but hardly a stretch.
 
GypsyComet said:
sideranautae said:
GypsyComet said:
The solution is to increase the number of Tenders and have a working reserve of X-Boats. Tenders can carry as many as four X-Boats, and with a little working reserve can still easily launch one a day while retrieving the incoming. With an extra tender (assuming 1.5 per leg with a minimum of +1)

In a fairly busy system you would need more than 2 Tenders. Easier to build an X-boat with M-drive. Also, in a fairly short time period (given a large empire) X-Boats will be crashing into GG's before a tender can reach them. NOT a viable situation.

Also, even X-Boats have attitude motors and can probably muster a tenth G in a pinch. X-Boats without M-Drive are an artifact of the original edition, which couldn't squeeze a J-4 design together with any M-Drive.

I couldn't find a MGT X-Boat spec'ed with "attitude motors" or that comes with an M-Drive. Which book is this in or, is this a house rule of yours. (If a house rule forget about it, I'm talking about RAW)
 
sideranautae said:
GypsyComet said:
Also, even X-Boats have attitude motors and can probably muster a tenth G in a pinch. X-Boats without M-Drive are an artifact of the original edition, which couldn't squeeze a J-4 design together with any M-Drive.

I couldn't find a MGT X-Boat spec'ed with "attitude motors" or that comes with an M-Drive. Which book is this in or, is this a house rule of yours. (If a house rule forget about it, I'm talking about RAW)

Do Tenders come with Tractor Beams or robot arms? Your attitude suggests that ships don't have airlocks, artificial gravity, or lights, either. They obviously can't have doors, or separate engineering from the rest of the ship with heavier bulkheads. None of that is in the RAW, after all. Mongoose stops at the whole ton of volume and 1G of thrust; nothing smaller. The level of detail below that is too fiddly to spend a lot of page count on unless you plan on putting a lot of work in. If you are not willing to stretch your own vision at least a little, the world strictly described in the books is going to be a very strange one for you compared to what the rest of us see.

Gotta get the X-Boat into the bay somehow, and that means being able to control its orientation and push itself around a little. Small fractions of a G of thrust are all that is needed, and the whole system on an X-Boat would probably be under 0.1 ton. It's part of the "Bridge" tonnage.
 
For those looking, the Xboat and Tender are in Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats pages 40 and 54 respectively. They must expect trouble to give an Xboat six weeks operation (solar sails)considering jump launch is relatively immediate and a normal retrieval at jump exit for an accurate predetermined reentry. Hmm, one pilot - two escape pods...

The tender has capacity for docking twelve Xboats/Courier and holding two more internally in a service bay. That's a lot of ships! Just how frequent do Xboats run, once a week each way? Once a day? The Xboats don't need to maneuver because the tender has a grappling arm. It seems they covered enough bases.

Considering the dedicated nature of the tender and Xboats and the routine knowledge for regular jumps, I wonder if the astrogation is very accurate possibly updated and uploaded from the tender's computer while the boat pilots have higher skill for Engineer(jump) and maybe Education as it's their main function. I'd say the scout service might prefer candidates exceptional so the system runs very efficiently. Also, I see pilots taking two time frame shifts as part of the schedule to guarantee an accurate jump. In addition the tender crew may also Aid Another. This would cut the 20-25% error significantly and normal for an organized unit.
 
Reynard said:
The tender has capacity for docking twelve Xboats/Courier and holding two more internally in a service bay. That's a lot of ships! Just how frequent do Xboats run, once a week each way? Once a day?

Once every day or two on the fringe to once an hour near Capital and between important systems.
 
I would say that there would be at least one jump per day along the Xboat route. With a ship in reserve for Emergency/Priority messages (War, Change in Imperial Mistresses etc.).
 
Reynard said:
I wonder if the astrogation is very accurate possibly updated and uploaded from the tender's computer while the boat pilots have higher skill for Engineer(jump) and maybe Education as it's their main function.

Per the rules of the game ALL they could do would be to hire Legendary Astrogators (skill 3-4) for ALL the X-Boats. Or, PhD types. Since that is impossible, they chase X-boats around the system using many Tenders in each system.

This kind of thing is a problem when the writers don't REALLY understand the game for which they dash off rules... :?
 
Reynard said:
For those looking, the Xboat and Tender are in Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats pages 40 and 54 respectively. They must expect trouble to give an Xboat six weeks operation (solar sails)considering jump launch is relatively immediate and a normal retrieval at jump exit for an accurate predetermined reentry. Hmm, one pilot - two escape pods...

Also Supplement 14: Space Stations has an X-Boat Hub Station with 18 grappling arms.
 
Looking over the MGT X-boat, (God knows why it was hidden in Traders & Gunboat and NOT in Scouts :roll: ) there is plenty of room to put in an A M-drive. Take 3 out of the 5.25 tons of cargo. Problem solved.
 
Cargo over drive is the reason for Express boat existence. They're purpose is to haul data and priority material from one system to another, period. Small craft do all the intersystem hauling so the Boat can get back to the other side ASAP at lower cost.

I'll be waiting for the physical copy of Supplement 14: Space Stations if only for the Xboat hub! Since the majority of X routes are to Class A ports it would make sense they would be the destination point with a dedicated area. I suspect tugs will bring the Boats into the dock for transfer and service then move them beyond the 100d for jump.
 
Some Previous versions of Traveller have used the rule that ships retain their Intertia through Jump. SO, without a M-Drive, X-Boats are not only popping up all over the system, they are headed in weird directions as some pretty hefty speeds...
 
You mean because of the vector of the starting system compared to the destination system? I see part of that complex astrogation computation takes this into account. The Boat could be pushed in a comparable vector so it arrives at a null state or at least not wildly hurling. One advantage the Express service should enjoy is knowing exact astrogation data for its routes.
 
Yes, it could be pushed. But that isn't mentioned in the rules and there are no ship designs for the X-Boat Pusher in any version that I am aware of.

Didn't think it through, that is what I am believing. Also, the X-Boat routes make NO SENSE in the OTU. Obviously designed by Politicians.
 
There's lots of things not specifically mentioned, that's why the GMs and players have imaginations to speculate and extrapolate. The tenders have docking arms that hold vessels while the tender is in transit. There is no reason a tender couldn't get underway for the purpose of putting a Boat on vector at launch then return to their location. Space stations with tender duties would have a tug that moves the Boat away from the station then releases it at the proper vector.

I like creating sector maps so I can see it's properties one being Xboat routes and how a sector's communication and economics look. I usually link A starports to every A starport in range while B starports with naval bases are normally linked to which ever A class would be priority or as a bridge between A classes. This also shows how many Xboat groups are assigned to a system, about one to each jump destination.
 
Xboat routes makes perfect sense for businesses, using them the most, demanding the government build and maintain them with the costs passed on to Imperial citizens. Why are they listed as civilian ships?

Why does that sound so much like 21st century postal systems? Explains all the flyers and shopping circulars cluttering my TAS mailbox and they're months old.

Why are they listed as civilian vessels?
 
Reynard said:
Why are they listed as civilian vessels?

The X-Boats in Imperial space are run by the Scout service, which isn't a branch of the military. Though they do support military operations.
 
Attached to the government (Imperial Scout Service), paid for by civilian fees, used mostly by business at reduced costs and everyone complains they're too inefficient ( this forum :D ). Sounds VERY familiar!
 
Reynard said:
Xboat routes makes perfect sense for businesses, using them the most, demanding the government build and maintain them with the costs passed on to Imperial citizens. Why are they listed as civilian ships?

Businesses don't have free use of X-boat. Anymore than businesses have free use of the Post Office. They are not civilian ships. That's an error. They are government ships that are often armed. (Much like Coast Guard ships today). They aren't active military. But, they are civilian much like police are civilian and not military...
 
Going back to the original topic, I tend to look at the system and make some generalizations based on what I know about it.

For example if a world has a hi population over 10 billion it likely cannot produce enough food to support its population, so its a good candidate for importing both food from other worlds as well as fertilizer (rock phosphate) to supplement its agriculture. That same world is also likely to have a strong industrial base and will need to import raw materials (i.e. metals) from elsewhere if its depleted its own system (including those found in asteroids, small moons, etc. possible in a long established world). It will in turn need to export finished products to offset these imports and maintain its economy. That's a lot of bulk in and bulk out.

Nearby medium pop worlds might be distribution points. Ore haulers from outer systems bring raw materials there where they are warehoused until there's enough to fill a large bulk freighter (the big 200,000dT ships). Likewise finished goods are dropped off there and sent out on smaller 2000 dT or smaller ships to the smaller worlds.

Small pop worlds likely import most things they need because they lack the industrial base to produce enough on their own. In exchange they need to produce something for export, again to maintain their economy, unless they're a subsidized colony (meaning someone else is paying the tab). Small worlds might focus on high value, small cargoes like precious metals and minerals, radioactives, high value biologicals (luxury food items, rare herbs or other plants, rare animals or animal products). Such smaller high value cargoes are easier to produce with limited manpower and have high enough value to cover the cost of everything they have to import.

How the trade lanes are arranged will also affect things. A world at the hub of several trade lanes is a natural distribution point regardless of its population or industrial base. If it is a medium or high pop world, then its likely going to be a very busy place with a lot of ships coming and going, large freighters, smaller freighters, passenger liners, private ships, etc. Perfect place for organized crime and smugglers to set up as all the traffic gives them cover for their moment (get lost in the crowd, hide in plain sight) and all that cargo coming and going... who's going to miss a bit lost do to "transit damage" or just a misdirected warehouse manifest.

Just some thoughts.
 
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