Swarms

[Locutus9956]

Heres an idea that occured to me earlier. As most people who play ACTA much know the game tends to massively favour swarm fleets over one big dreadnough.

If you play games like 1pt armageddon this tends to limit the effet somwhat but its still not ideal.

So how about this for an idea off the top of my head. In any given game you can have no more ships on the table than the number of FAP. There could be some racial modifiers possibly depending on fleets (Drazi and Drakh come to mind as probably deserving a small bonus here as thats how they work (likewise ISA maybe).

So say for example youre playing a 5 point raid, you cant take 10 skirmish ships as that would break the max 5 ship rule but you could take 2 skirmish ships 2 raid ships and a battle ship.

Its far from perfect but Im tired and just throwing it in for people to play about with (personally Ive found that the most amusing games Ive had are where people take a variety of ships from various PL and dont just spam swarm ships).

 

[Davesaint]

Heres an idea that occured to me earlier. As most people who play ACTA much know the game tends to massively favour swarm fleets over one big dreadnough.

If you play games like 1pt armageddon this tends to limit the effet somwhat but its still not ideal.

So how about this for an idea off the top of my head. In any given game you can have no more ships on the table than the number of FAP. There could be some racial modifiers possibly depending on fleets (Drazi and Drakh come to mind as probably deserving a small bonus here as thats how they work (likewise ISA maybe).

So say for example youre playing a 5 point raid, you cant take 10 skirmish ships as that would break the max 5 ship rule but you could take 2 skirmish ships 2 raid ships and a battle ship.

Its far from perfect but Im tired and just throwing it in for people to play about with (personally Ive found that the most amusing games Ive had are where people take a variety of ships from various PL and dont just spam swarm ships).

I don't like it. It puts the boresight races at an extreme disadvantage.


BTW, the 1 Armageddon does not keep you from building a swarm fleet. I actually considered taking 24 hermes in a fight, but when I realized that Vassal only went up to 19 for ship numbering, I decided against it.

What makes the swarm fleet viable is when they changed the fleet breakdown in armageddon. Pre-armageddon it was 2, 3, 4, 6....With armageddon it changed to 2,3,6,12....

This made buying down much more viable. Add to this some outstanding ships at lower PL's and the current criticals chart, and it became the death of the big ship fleet.


Dave

 

[Calistan]

The Armageddon breakdown puts any fleet with bad low PL ships at a disadvantage and because of crits and shear firepower, 24 patrol ships can easily take on an Armageddon ship.

 

[CZuschlag]

Davesaint's right -- it's the buydown cost structure that permits it. That's what needs to get fixed, honestly.

Call me dumb, but I thought the SFoS purchase structure worked really, really, REALLY well.

 

[katadder]

we are trialing a new buydown structure as we speak. with a few more ideas in the works.

 

[Ripple]

Have to disagree to an extent, as the 10 Skirmish fleet that bugs Mr Locutus was perfectly legal under SFoS. It's not that I think SFoS didn't do a better buy down structure, it did, but Arm. only changed the swarms to a limited degree at raid (effectively an extra patrol per two points broken down or a max of three extra patrol ships if you sacrifice a skirmish to get two patrol instead).

I'm not sure I object to the 10 skirmish fleet, particularly considering many races can have a variety of ships in that set. The question is whether you have an issue with fleets of all the same ship (or nearly so). Locutus himself says certain races should get exceptions based I assume on fluff ISA, Drahk, and Drazi...but we see fleets of all G'Quans, all Vorchans, even all Omegas in the show...so hard to buy that as an argument in this universe.

Game mechanic wise it may be more interesting to face a variety of ship types, but in no way encourages more balance. Scouts and big beam being the formerly big deal combo.

This issue with small ship vs big ship is best addressed primarily through the crit chart first, then through balancing ship firepower better (ie that two lower priority ships aren't almost always better than one higher) and lastly through the pl breakdowns that are only a big deal at the x6. x12, etc. levels.

Ripple

 

[Target]

The redundancy thing fixes the problem far more effectively.
We decicied the crew score was more hassle than actual use. We turned that score into redundancy. The first number in crew +1 becomes the new crew score eg 18 crew =2, 35= 4 & so on. We used this score to stop critical efffects or make CQ checks. When reduced to zero you become skeleton crewed. You have to becareful when using the score to make CQ checks because you can become skeleton crewed very quickly or suffer bad crits. Most of our crits require 1 crew to stop going up to 4 for 6-6 ship explode one ( modified crit chart).
Since we have played this way I can take 1 Octurion in 5pt raid fleet vs Drazi with oddles of patrol & skirmish craft & still be able have great game because of the Octurion can operate at full effiecently for longer. Also don't have crits that can't be repaired.
The other bonus to the system when are currently is far quicker +ships like the haven & chronos don't suffer as bad from effectively having 6 & 18 hits because of the crew score, it just means they can't take crits very well. We can play a lot more games. Sorry thats lot to read to get to the 1 War ship vs x amount ships point.

We also designed a awesome campaign system which doesn't require everyone to be there. I could try to explain it but my mate designed so he would far better to do that. If someone is interested PM & i'll see what i can organise.

 

[Triggy]

Yeah - the concerns are being noted and as katadder said, some ideas are being tested.

As has already been mentioned, in 2nd ed. the Crit table is already a lot more big ship-friendly

We're still trying to find the balance where swarms become a problem and where big ships are worth taking (although big ships, as mentioned already, are already good choices if only they are slightly more survivable to crits).

 

[Romu]

I hear you all. I've only been playing for a couple of months and have played a dozen games during that time and I think it's something that needs resolving.

I'm more of a big ship kind of guy and my opponent is more of the swarm type and well at least half of my games were lost to a 1st turn crit in weapons on my biggest ship

I still think the game is great but that needs to be adressed.

 

[Tankdriver]

I am a swarm monster. I admit it. And the initiative structure, as well as the priority system makes this easier for me, so were I to slip into the frame of mind that earned me the name Captain CF, in Star Fleet Battles, I would say, "Make changes to my swarms and pull back a bloody stump."

But I also like balanced games, and if I can kill a War ship with however many patrol ships, then I feel like I am cheating. I take away the other player's benefit for winning the initiative and I have thro away ships that he HAS to put fire onto. With a pack of Blue Stars, I could really ruin a Warlock's day.

 

[Ripple]

Yeah, be nice if the initiative system didn't encourage it so much, but as long as boresight remains they have to run it that way. Otherwise you could at least go to a Battletech like system and group things up a bit so you don't get the 'saving my best ships for after all your ships' type turns.

Ripple

 

[Burger]

(although big ships, as mentioned already, are already good choices if only they are slightly more survivable to crits).

Redundancy! \o/

 

[katadder]

see i dont agree they are any more suvivable to crits. some of the crits are less devastating for example but that applies to all size ships and having more ships is obviously even less devastating when you do get one of the newer crits as one ship is still untouched.

 

[Burger]

Also the trait loss crits will affect big ships more than members of a swarm.

Victory loses Adaptive Armour: it halves its effective hit points.
One Ka'Toc loses... errr... jump point? No, wait....

 

[katadder]

well some small ships have lots of traits. trait losses will effect big ships more and advanced ships.
so like i said big ships are not any more survivable, just most the crits are not as bad (unless you are a sharlin losing stealth, or a WS losing dodge or AA).

 

[Phoenix]

Another option would be to say that ships don't take criticals until they have suffered at least 1/2 damage, this would mean that big ships are more resiliant than small ships to criticals due to the number of damage points.
Or if that is too good, they ignore special effects from criticals just taking the damage and crew till they get to half damage.

It means that the ancient ships are able to have a fight against a fleet without being crippled by criticals on the first turn.

 

[Arcadia]

Would it be to crazy if War and Armageddon ship now that beams and mini-beams hit at 4, the big ship may go up to hull 7 or 8; needing to roll 6 with AP or SAP (exception to 6 always is a hit)? Would it help against swarms? Not much I think the problem is that swarm ship are beam heavy ships, maybe this need to lose the beam’s o making them less effective.

Arcadia.

 

[Triggy]

well some small ships have lots of traits. trait losses will effect big ships more and advanced ships.
so like i said big ships are not any more survivable, just most the crits are not as bad (unless you are a sharlin losing stealth, or a WS losing dodge or AA).

I agree that the effects are the same regardless of size (well not quite as larger ships have more arcs to lose so are less likely to lose their main guns) but the crits available (mainly weapons ones) are not nearly so devasatingly bad. More importantly though is that crits (and traits) are far, far easier to repair and this really has the big leg up for the larger ships as they can survive the turn to repair them.

 

[Ripple]

That's not a bad idea Phoenix.

Ripple

 

[operative 6678]

Or if that is too good, they ignore special effects from criticals just taking the damage and crew till they get to half damage.

The best suggestion so far IMHO

perhaps note the special effect of the critical but it only comes into effect if the crew fail to repair it before the ship is reduced to half damage