Surprise rounds

[Voltumna]

How do you proceed to determine if there is a surprise round, and if there is one, how do you determine who is flat footed?

Say a couple of bandits is hiding to ambush an aproaching group of travelers. They have readied bows to fire when targets are in range. This is how I think things go:

1. Bandits have readied bows

2. Travelers make spot and/or listen checks. Travelers who make their skill checks are aware of the bandits, but since they will be attacked by readied bows, they are still flatfooted because they haven't acted yet, despite the fact that they are aware of the ambushing bandits? Unless they have Uncanny dodge. Travelers who don't make their skill checks are doomed unless they have UD

3. Bandits make their attacks on the surprise round. Things are resolved as usual, and let's supose there are surviving travelers.

4. Initiative is rolled for the first round of combat, so travellers will again be flat footed to bandits who go before them on initiative order. What if a traveler has a higher initiative order that a bandit? Does he get that bandit flat footed because now this is the first round of combat? Or bandit's can't be flat footed because they already acted on the surprise round?

 

[quigs]

I think you are supposed to roll initiative for all the players and NPC's that are taking actions in the surprise round. That will tell you when everybody goes. Then once the surprise round is over, the remaining players roll initiative.

 

[Trodax]

Don't know about having readied bows at the start... it makes sense in a way but I'm not sure how to handle it. When could they act; at initiative 0?

This is how I'd handle an ambush like this:

1.) Travellers make spot and/or listen checks. Those who make it are aware of the bandits and will get to act in the surprise round.

2.) Surprise round. All bandits and the travellers who made the skill check above roll for initiative and perform the one action allowed in a surprise round. Everyone is flat-footed until they have acted, meaning of course that all travellers who failed their skill check will be flat-footed since they can't act in the surprise round.
(Note: This means that it is quite possible for one of the travellers to catch one of the bandits flat-footed, if he makes the skill check and rolls a higher initiative.)

3.) First round. All travellers who failed the skill check roll for initiative and enter combat. These newcomers are flat-footed until they have acted. Those who acted in the surprise round continue to act on the initiative they rolled, and none of them are flat-footed since they have already acted.

What if a traveler has a higher initiative order that a bandit? Does he get that bandit flat footed because now this is the first round of combat? Or bandit's can't be flat footed because they already acted on the surprise round?

Acting, whether in a surprise round or not, takes you out of flat-footedness for the remainder of the combat. Therefore, no one who acted in the surprise round will be flat-footed at the start of the first regular round.

 

[kintire]

Note: This means that it is quite possible for one of the travellers to catch one of the bandits flat-footed, if he makes the skill check and rolls a higher initiative.)

Combat begins when one hostile group becomes aware of the other. Surprise rounds occur when only one group has seen the other. Under most circumstances, the bandits will have seen the travellers in advance and will have taken a number of Wait actions as they approach. Hence, they will no longer be flatfooted.

Of course, if the bandits attack as soon as they become aware of the travellers, they can be flatfooted as usual.

 

[Voltumna]

That helps guys, thanks. Now, a question regarding Striking Cobra, it says you make a bluff check, and this being prior to combat I assume this is not a feint, but an actual bluff check, so the targets do not get to add their BAB to their sense motive checks?

 

[kintire]

it says you make a bluff check, and this being prior to combat I assume this is not a feint, but an actual bluff check, so the targets do not get to add their BAB to their sense motive checks?

Correct. The point of striking cobra is that they don't realise you are starting combat. Feints take place in mid battle.

 

[Trodax]

Combat begins when one hostile group becomes aware of the other. Surprise rounds occur when only one group has seen the other. Under most circumstances, the bandits will have seen the travellers in advance and will have taken a number of Wait actions as they approach. Hence, they will no longer be flatfooted.

So when would you let the bandits act?
Would you still have them roll initiative as usual and not attack until their initiative came up (just say that they were not flat-footed from the start of the surprise round)?
Or would you let them act at any time (as per the normal rules for someone with a Readied action)? If the second is the case, then they would always catch the travellers flat-footed as they could just choose to attack at an infinitely high initiative. Travellers who did not get to act in the surprise round would also automatically be caught flat-footed in both the surprise round and in the subsequent first round.

 

[Sutek]

1. Bandits have readied bows

2. Travelers make spot and/or listen checks. Travelers who make their skill checks are aware of the bandits, but since they will be attacked by readied bows, they are still flatfooted because they haven't acted yet, despite the fact that they are aware of the ambushing bandits? Unless they have Uncanny dodge. Travelers who don't make their skill checks are doomed unless they have UD

3. Bandits make their attacks on the surprise round. Things are resolved as usual, and let's supose there are surviving travelers.

4. Initiative is rolled for the first round of combat, so travellers will again be flat footed to bandits who go before them on initiative order. What if a traveler has a higher initiative order that a bandit? Does he get that bandit flat footed because now this is the first round of combat? Or bandit's can't be flat footed because they already acted on the surprise round?

1: Readied and ambushing folks will get a surprise round if the folks they intend to ambush remain unaware of them.

2: Ranged attacks disregard all but Dodging, so there's that aspect to consider. But, first and foremost, the Surprise Round takes place before Initiative is rolled (look it up - forget the page, but it's true). Now, if some of the ambushees make thier Spot Checks, I usually roll a separate Initiative for everyone involved that round and then re-roll Initiative in the regular rounds that follow, but this could get confusing. Best bet is to just go in some other order. I reccomend DEX or, probably better, Spot order. In other words, whoever has the highest Spot gets to recat first in the Surprise Round, then everyone gets to roll Initiative.

All that aside, but the RAW, individuals that are aware are not surprised and may act in the surprise round. In your example though, it could be interpreted that, even though some of the group Spot the ambushers, not all of them do, so the ambush works and all of the PC party are surprised - all or nothing.

3: See above, but okay.

4: If a Traveller has a higer Initiative count in the first true round, yes - he catches any Bandits lower than him Flat Footed. The tables have turned. Quick people with cruddy Spot skills can still react after tha fact and be an asset this way.

Just keep in mind that the Surprise Round is a separate little event from the rest of combat. The rule book is vague on what to do about ties (both groups are aware) and particularly where partial groups are aware of parts of other groups. Just make it easy on yourself - do what flows best at the table. But, Surprise Round first, before Inititative is rolled, resolve everything for that, then roll Initiative for everyone.

 

[argo]

1. Bandits have readied bows

The Ready action is a Special Initative Action hence you cannot Ready an action before you roll initative. IOW you cannot ready an action outside of combat.

The reason for this is to avoid exactly this sort of situation where the bandits have an unavoidable surprise round.

2. Travelers make spot and/or listen checks. Travelers who make their skill checks are aware of the bandits, but since they will be attacked by readied bows, they are still flatfooted because they haven't acted yet, despite the fact that they are aware of the ambushing bandits? Unless they have Uncanny dodge. Travelers who don't make their skill checks are doomed unless they have UD

Travelers make spot/listen checks. Those who make their checks are aware of the opposition. If anybody on either side of the fight is unaware then a surprise round occurs. If everybody is aware of everybody else then no surprise round occurs and you go directly to the first regular round as normal. There are no readied attacks as discussed above.

3. Bandits make their attacks on the surprise round. Things are resolved as usual, and let's supose there are surviving travelers.

Anybody who was aware rolls initative to take an action in the surprise round as normal. Characters are flat-footed until their first initative in the surprise round. Anybody who is unaware does not roll initative and remains flat-footed for the entire surprise round.

4. Initiative is rolled for the first round of combat, so travellers will again be flat footed to bandits who go before them on initiative order. What if a traveler has a higher initiative order that a bandit? Does he get that bandit flat footed because now this is the first round of combat? Or bandit's can't be flat footed because they already acted on the surprise round?

Anybody who rolled initative in the surpise round does not re-roll initative for the first round of combat. Instead they keep their initative score and are not flat-footed because they already acted in this combat. Anybody who was unaware durring the surprise round rolls initative at the start of the first round and takes actions normally.

If you ambush someone who is unaware of you it is possible to attack them twice while they are flat-footed: once durring the surprise round (when they did not roll initative) and once in the first round (assuming their initative roll was less than what you rolled in the surprise round). Getting ambushed sucks!

Hope that helps.

 

[Foxworthy]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise

That should help.

 

[Sutek]

fw, I think his problem was a determination of order in the gap between the surprise and regular rounds. Notice tha the SRD doesn't pin-point directives for the surprise round initiative versus the regular round initiative.

In other words, do you roll initiatives for the surprise round and then again for the regular rounds? Do the combatants who had surprise actions always go first? What if combatants who didn't act in the surprise round roll higer inititatives than those combatants that did act in the surprise round? There's a lot of unanswered situations and scenarios the SRD doesn't cover, or doesn't cover well.

Stargate:SG1 RPG had a cool fluid initiative system that changed a character's initiative count each round depending on his actions. If he was injured, some init was shaved off. If he was aiming his rifle, some init was added to allow him to fire sooner in the subsequent round. In other words, you can also come up with house rules to state that combatants gaining actions in a Surprise round automatically get a +5 init once regular rounds start.

There's lots you can do to get things more specific, but the easiest is to just roll surprise initiatives, then, once regular rounds start, everyone rolls again.

 

[argo]

In other words, do you roll initiatives for the surprise round and then again for the regular rounds?

No, you roll initative once per combat.

Do the combatants who had surprise actions always go first? What if combatants who didn't act in the surprise round roll higer inititatives than those combatants that did act in the surprise round?

Then they get to go first in the first regular round, the ambushers still had the advantage of the surprise round when the surprised charachters were flat-footed. They don't get a guarantee of going first in later rounds.

There's a lot of unanswered situations and scenarios the SRD doesn't cover, or doesn't cover well.

Well, the SRD does answer these questions. However you are right that it doesn't answer all of them well. That's because the SRD is supposed to be a design document with the bare-bones rules. If you want a book that fleshes out the rules with discussion and examples then you have to pony up the dough for the DMG (or DMG II which I hear good things about).

Hope that helps.

 

[kintire]

So when would you let the bandits act?
Would you still have them roll initiative as usual and not attack until their initiative came up (just say that they were not flat-footed from the start of the surprise round)?

The former. I see no situation at all where a combatant who has seen his enemies approaching for a period of more than a round could possibly be flat footed.

 

[Sutek]

In other words, do you roll initiatives for the surprise round and then again for the regular rounds?

No, you roll initative once per combat.

So, what if you have this scenario: Bandits 1-5 versus Travellers 1-5.

bandits get a surprise round and 2 Travellers (say 1 and 2 to make it easy) made thier spot checks to notice it. According to the (I say "vague") rules for sorting this out, a surprise round takes place before regular combat starts, roll initiative to determine who acts first. Okay:

Bandit1: INIT 12
Bandit2: INIT 19
Bandit3: INIT 7
Bandit4: INIT 21
Bandit5: INIT 15

Traveller1: INIT 12*
Traveller2: INIT 15*
Traveller3: INIT 9
Traveller4: INIT 24
Traveller5: INIT 23

Now, because we're in a Surprise Round, and because the RAW says to roll INIT to determine who goes first if individuals on both sides have awareness in such cases, we have a 21, a 19, two 15's, two 12's and a 7 that all go before everyone else, in that order, in the Surprise Round. Apparently, in the next REAL round of combat, the fella with the 24 and the dude with the 23 suddenly get "extra speedy". The problem with this is that the Bandits with lower INIT values can take them out before they get to go because all of the INITs are generated in the surprise round even though not everyone can act. Not only that, but Travellers who were, just seconds before, caught Flat-footed now have a higher INIT count than the Bandits who surprised them and, therefore, have caught the bandits Flat-footed somehow. (?) That makes even less sense.

I think the intent is to use the INIT roll in the Surprise Round solely as a tie-breaker; a means of applying order to the actions. Then, for regular rounds, INIT counts are re-generated.

My suggestion of allowing Surprise Round combatants to act in Spot skill order makes that round more instinctual and foregoes excessive rolling of dice and differnet INIT counts altogther.

 

[kintire]

Apparently, in the next REAL round of combat, the fella with the 24 and the dude with the 23 suddenly get "extra speedy"

Extra speedy? They react before the ambushers can get two actions, but after their first one. How is that extra speedy?

The problem with this is that the Bandits with lower INIT values can take them out before they get to go because all of the INITs are generated in the surprise round even though not everyone can act

The ambushers can take out the ambushed before they get to act. Well, this is less a "problem" and more "the whole point of ambushes..."

Not only that, but Travellers who were, just seconds before, caught Flat-footed now have a higher INIT count than the Bandits who surprised them and, therefore, have caught the bandits Flat-footed somehow. (?) That makes even less sense.

Under no conceivable interpretation of the rules is anyone who has taken an action in the surprise round flatfooted in the first full round.

 

[Sutek]

Apparently, in the next REAL round of combat, the fella with the 24 and the dude with the 23 suddenly get "extra speedy"

Extra speedy? They react before the ambushers can get two actions, but after their first one. How is that extra speedy?

Nope. They roll 24 and 23, but they didn't become aware of he ambush and so do not participate in the surprise round. This means that they've rolled high INIT for nothing and the Bandits that act before the slower Travellers during the Surprise Round can kill off 24 and 23 Traveller before they even get to go. Now, I have no problem with that in and of itself, but the issue is that once the regular round begins, 24 and 23 are the quickest AND since thier count is higher, Bandit 21 should be counted as Flat-footed. They makes no sense if the Bandits surprised them.

Not only that, but Travellers who were, just seconds before, caught Flat-footed now have a higher INIT count than the Bandits who surprised them and, therefore, have caught the bandits Flat-footed somehow. (?) That makes even less sense.

Under no conceivable interpretation of the rules is anyone who has taken an action in the surprise round flatfooted in the first full round.

Erm, yes. They are. They rule that states that individuals acting in INIT counts before others in a combat catch the slower INIT count people Flat-footed. Even if the Bandits in the Surprise round roll lower INITs, they go first (in a Surprise round, granted) and then suffer low INIT couts when the regular rounds kick in.

By the RAW, combat has't really started until the first regular round of combat. Since Flat-footedness is determined at the "start of combat", it creates a strange timeing issue. That's the point of the original question.

 

[Trodax]

So when would you let the bandits act?
Would you still have them roll initiative as usual and not attack until their initiative came up (just say that they were not flat-footed from the start of the surprise round)?

The former. I see no situation at all where a combatant who has seen his enemies approaching for a period of more than a round could possibly be flat footed.

I actually don't have a problem with that situation. I would interpret it as the ambushers not anticipating that they will be discovered, and therefore not being ready for an attack.
For example, Conan is scouting through the pictish wilderness when suddenly he feels a tingle down his spine. With pantherish speed, he instantly flings his axe out into the foliage, and is greeted by a gurgling sound as a pictish warrior in full war paint is caught in the throat (he was flat-footed, you see ). The next instant, the forest erupts with war shouts as the picts attack.

Also, someone getting ambushed but discovering it (spot/listen check) and being really fast (high initiative) can get at most one standard action against a flat-footed ambusher, so it's not like he's going to run up and full-attack him. You would basically only manage to take advantage of your opponents flat-footedness if you had a drawn ranged weapon (as in the example above) or if you did a partial charge and managed to reach an ambusher (Conan flinging himself into the foliage an instant before the picts attack). I don't have a problem with heroes doing stuff like that.

 

[Trodax]

So, what if you have this scenario: Bandits 1-5 versus Travellers 1-5.

bandits get a surprise round and 2 Travellers (say 1 and 2 to make it easy) made thier spot checks to notice it. According to the (I say "vague") rules for sorting this out, a surprise round takes place before regular combat starts, roll initiative to determine who acts first. Okay:

Bandit1: INIT 12
Bandit2: INIT 19
Bandit3: INIT 7
Bandit4: INIT 21
Bandit5: INIT 15

Traveller1: INIT 12*
Traveller2: INIT 15*
Traveller3: INIT 9
Traveller4: INIT 24
Traveller5: INIT 23

OK, here is how this example would play out:

Surprise round (Everyone who is aware rolls for initiative. For this examples sake, I'm assuming that bandits go first on a tied initiative, because of a higher Dex or whatever.)

21 Bandit4 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
19 Bandit2 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
15 Bandit5 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
15 Traveller2 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
12 Bandit1 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
12 Traveller1 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
7 Bandit3 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.

Round 1 (Everyone who didn't act in the surprise round now roll for initiative. Those who acted in the surprise round keep using the same initiative.)

24 Traveller4 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
23 Traveller5 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
21 Bandit4 acts.
19 Bandit2 acts.
15 Bandit5 acts.
15 Traveller2 acts.
12 Bandit1 acts.
12 Traveller1 acts.
9 Traveller3 acts. He is no longer flat-footed for the remainder of the combat.
7 Bandit3 acts.

And so on.
How can you interpret this as Travellers 4 & 5 getting "extra speedy"? They are slower than Travellers 1 & 2!

By the RAW, combat has't really started until the first regular round of combat. Since Flat-footedness is determined at the "start of combat", it creates a strange timeing issue. That's the point of the original question.

Not only would this make absolutely no sense, I am quite certain that it is not part of the RAW.

 

[Sutek]

Combatants are Flat-footed until the first round of combat is over. The Surprise round is a pre-round. I'll look up the actual wording when I get home - dont' have the book here at work.

What is supposed to happen is that Surprise makes some combatants act at INIT + infinity. They go before INIT is even rolled, as a matter of fact. The rule book states it pretty clearly - Surprise is before INIT is rolled. When it's sugested that INIT be rolled when some of each group is aware (which the rule book also leaves a vague ascertainment totally up to the GM) then it sugggests to roll INITin the surpise round to see who goes first...in that round. I don't think it's mean to last through the rest of the combat.

As an addendum, the SRD says to roll INIT. I can't remember the Conan RPG saying that, but my memory may be off. It does say that INIT isn't supposed to be rolled until the first round of combat.

 

[argo]

So when would you let the bandits act?
Would you still have them roll initiative as usual and not attack until their initiative came up (just say that they were not flat-footed from the start of the surprise round)?

The former. I see no situation at all where a combatant who has seen his enemies approaching for a period of more than a round could possibly be flat footed.

"Ok boys, I want you to keep quiet and remember - don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes. Ok here they come. Steady .... wait for it ... wait for it .... oh crap one of them saw us! GO-GO-GO-GO!!!"

Roll initative.


Though I agree that there may be some cases where a GM may want to declare everyone to not be flat-footed I think that 99% of the time you should stick with having those who loose initative be flat-footed.