Supplement 5 & 6 - The Vehicle Handbook

[phavoc]

Does anyone recall the 101 Vehicles book for MegaTraveller? It was nicely done, though at times the detail was useless since characters (I keep wanting to call them toons!) usually needed transportation and didn't need to know or care about the continental-ranged communicator or densiometer. But some things, like NBC overpressure capabilities come in handy.

It's always going to be a fine line between too much, and too little. Too little and you get things like Car, 1ea, grav-powered, 4 passengers, 1dton cargo, TL12. It's generic, it gets the job done, but it has no flavor and holds no real interest for people who like the details to make things special.

On the other hand, you can go into too much detail, so our example becomes Car, TL14, Manufactured by Arrow Industries on Jewell. Two-door, with folding front seats to access the rear seats. Cargo area can support 1dton worth of cargo (in x by x by x space). Atmospheric support allows 4 passengers to reach low-orbit, with approximate 1hr extra lifesupport. Cruising speed is 400kph, Max speed is 900kph. Time to orbit from ground (in 1G) is 2.5hrs. Vehicle does not support internal a/g fields, so passengers must be belted in at all times in low-g environments.

No armor. Vehicle body is capable of resisting small arms fire or debris strike, but cannot take multiple hits in same area before failure of hull. etc, etc.

So having more info CAN be useful... but not to everyone. But the biggest things I'd like to see are consistency and some version of 'that makes sense' applied to both the design system and the vehicles.

I still wanna vote for having a spreadsheet or some other user-maintained type program that should be available to build vehicles. Pen and paper (or a spreadsheet) works, but its nice to not have to do that.

 

[Colin]

Yes, when a designed air raft can be fusion power or hamster powered, without design or performance differences, it isn't actually a vehicle design system at all.

Chassis types have assumptions built-in regarding power plants, etc. A TL14 grav vehicle has performance characteristics that assume fusion power. If it is, instead, powered by hamsters, then the designer would choose the reduced speed and reduced range modifications, and perhaps lowered agility as well.

 

[rust]

If it is, instead, powered by hamsters, then the designer would choose the reduced speed and reduced range modifications, and perhaps lowered agility as well.

And slightly different fuel requirements, I suspect.

 

[DFW]

Chassis types have assumptions built-in regarding power plants, etc. A TL14 grav vehicle has performance characteristics that assume fusion power. If it is, instead, powered by hamsters, then the designer would choose the reduced speed and reduced range modifications, and perhaps lowered agility as well.

Cool, I was under the impression (from earlier posts) that different types power plant types weren't spelled out and differences for those weren't in the rules .

 

[Colin]

Chassis types have assumptions built-in regarding power plants, etc. A TL14 grav vehicle has performance characteristics that assume fusion power. If it is, instead, powered by hamsters, then the designer would choose the reduced speed and reduced range modifications, and perhaps lowered agility as well.

Cool, I was under the impression (from earlier posts) that different types power plant types weren't spelled out and differences for those weren't in the rules .

It's not specifically stated. There are sidebars in the design system that talk about possible technologies at each tech level, but they aren't really part of the design system. As an example, a battery-powered vehicle may have a lowered range and speed.

Materials are assumed at specific tech levels as well, but aside from descriptions, they don't really affect anything. Base armor is dependent on TL, not material. That TL 15 Vehicle has a base armor of 6. It's likely bonded superdense, but it could be spun diamond. It doesn't really matter.

You design a vehicle by choosing a chassis type, and set the size, based on payload. Performance characteristics are TL based, so you read them off the chart. Then you modify the vehicle, by increasing or decreasing speed, agility, range, and adding other features, like weapons, environment controls, and wet bars. Most of the math is simple addition or easy percentages (10%, 25%, ETC)

 

[DFW]

It's not specifically stated.

Okay, so my analysis stands. Not necessarily bad, just not a real design system when dealing with multiple different technologies for a given vehicle.

 

[apoc527]

"Not a real design system" according to YOUR own tastes and desires. It's a perfectly valid design system that will find traction with a lot of people.

 

[apoc527]

If you really want to blow a gasket, go look up conflict resolution game systems. You think a simple effects-based design system is not detailed, you should try Dogs in the Vineyard!!

;-) (DITV drives me nuts too. If there are no skill rolls, how can it be an RPG?!)

 

[Mithras]

It sounds very much like the system I'm using at the moment, so I will be at home. Pitched just at my level I think ...

 

[Colin]

It's not specifically stated.

Okay, so my analysis stands. Not necessarily bad, just not a real design system when dealing with multiple different technologies for a given vehicle.

That's a subjective view, and wholly dependent on what you term a "design system." This is simply a different type of design system, one more concerned with the end result than the detailed road to get there.

 

[Treebore]

Yeah, I am sure I will be happy with it too. If not I still have all my old Traveller stuff to draw on. Which is one of the reasons I am a fan of THIS version of Traveller, still highly compatible with my other resources.

 

[DFW]

That's a subjective view, and wholly dependent on what you term a "design system." This is simply a different type of design system, one more concerned with the end result than the detailed road to get there.

Actually, it becomes VERY objective when two different GM's or designers or players can't reliably create the same vehicle with the same "stats".

Thus incompatibility would be the norm between different games, 3rd party supplements (indeed, even two different in-house projects), etc.

 

[apoc527]

It's not specifically stated.

Okay, so my analysis stands. Not necessarily bad, just not a real design system when dealing with multiple different technologies for a given vehicle.

That's a subjective view, and wholly dependent on what you term a "design system." This is simply a different type of design system, one more concerned with the end result than the detailed road to get there.

QFT. Have you seen the old SilCORE system by Dream Pod 9? They had a pretty good effects-based design system.

 

[apoc527]

That's a subjective view, and wholly dependent on what you term a "design system." This is simply a different type of design system, one more concerned with the end result than the detailed road to get there.

Actually, it becomes VERY objective when two different GM's or designers or players can't reliably create the same vehicle with the same "stats".

Thus incompatibility would be the norm between different games, 3rd party supplements (indeed, even two different in-house projects), etc.

Given my understanding of the design system, the risk of not being able to reliably create the same design is FAR FAR less with this system than any detailed, math-heavy, fiddly-bits-based design system. You simply give the vehicle the same stats as the one you are trying to copy. Doesn't get much simpler than that!

 

[Colin]

QFT. Have you seen the old SilCORE system by Dream Pod 9? They had a pretty good effects-based design system.

I wrote cis-Lunar Space for Jovian Chronicles. So I have some familiarity with it, yes.

 

[atpollard]

Reality tends to involve a lot of design assumptions

YOU are making assumptions for level of detail I haven't called for.

It sounded like you wanted a fairly high level of detail in this post ...

A good detailed design system would of course result in different values for different materials, technologies and technology levels.

Yes, that it would. A TL 4 internal combustion engine will have a power to weight & mass ratio that is quite different than a TL 7 one. The price would also be different. Simple definitions and formulas would handle that with minimal fuss.

The key is backward design. Take real world examples for the TLs and design the rules/formulas to basically fit. A little more work but a system where you can actually design stuff that isn't 90% black box/handwavium.

Let me be far more specific. Try creating a roughly accurate game formula for the engines on a Stanley Steamer, a Model T Ford and the Wright Flyer. All you need to do is create a simple formula to determine Volume, Weight and Power so we can install a double size version in a Truck to haul Standardized Containers to our TL 4/5 Starport.

It seems simple until you actually start to look at the values for these three real world engines. They are radically different from each other and from the Zeplin diesel engines that are also from the same time period. So which one do you use as the basis for your TL 4 gasoline/kerosene engine? Whichever you choose, the others will be far off from their historic performance values.

Recreating real world vehicles from a general design system is hard (bordering on impossible) with any degree of accuracy.

 

[rust]

All you need to do is create a simple formula to determine Volume, Weight and Power so we can install a double size version in a Truck to haul Standardized Containers to our TL 4/5 Starport.

I think this should come close enough, at least for roleplaying purposes:

Power: determined by the user
Weight: (20 x kW)+100 lbs
Volume: Weight: 50 cf
Fuel: 0.06 gallons per hour per kW

It will not retroengineer each and every historical engine of TL 5, but all
the results will be close enough to be comparable and make sense.

 

[apoc527]

QFT. Have you seen the old SilCORE system by Dream Pod 9? They had a pretty good effects-based design system.

I wrote cis-Lunar Space for Jovian Chronicles. So I have some familiarity with it, yes.

Sweet. Great setting, Jovian Chronicles. I preferred the ships to the mecha, though.

 

[Mithras]

Sweet. Great setting, Jovian Chronicles. I preferred the ships to the mecha, though.

Agreed! But then we're all Traveller players.

 

[rust]

A few more thoughts: If you use the data from a high number of engines
(or whatever) of the same type and technology level to draw a graph, the
result will almost certainly be a bell curve. The formula used by the de-
sign system for the engines (or whatever) should deliver data which fit
the medium value of the bell curve. If these data are compared to real
world engines (or whatever), there will be differences, but the huge majo-
rity of these real world engines (or whatever) will have data very close to
those created by the formula - and this is good enough for me, and pro-
bably the best one can get for a roleplaying game anyway.

If you want to model future improvements of the technology, reduce the
weight, volume and fuel consumption for each higher technology level,
up to the point where you think that further improvements will no longer
be possible because of physical limits (e.g. energy density of the fuel).