Suggestion for boresight/inisink problem solution

[GhostRecon]

The suggestion I made was a combination or exclusive use of A) Halved AD for the beam weapon and B) Raising the 4+ for a beam hit to 5+

The only "iffy" application of the rule is to 1 AD beam weapons, in which case I suppose the best fit is using the 5+ to hit rule, or even raising it to 6+, alternatively, in all cases, the beam hit can "ramp up." For example, the first hit rolls 4+, then 5+, then 6+ like interceptors, reflecting the fact the beam shot is "raking" across the target instead of burning through it, and thus is less effective.

One could even just use the "ramp up" to reflect raking fire; you keep your normal amount of AD, but the "to hit" needed ramps up to 6+ until you're out of AD Dice.

 

[daishi]

One could even just use the "ramp up" to reflect raking fire; you keep your normal amount of AD, but the "to hit" needed ramps up to 6+ until you're out of AD Dice.

So beams would act like they did in 1ED - I think that sounds very reasonable - you are likely to be hitting less & less of the target so have a harder time to hit. Only question I have is would I be able to fire if my ship boresights on my move & is there a limit to when I couldnt fire eg if target moves out of front arc can I still use the raking fire rule ?

 

[GhostRecon]

One could even just use the "ramp up" to reflect raking fire; you keep your normal amount of AD, but the "to hit" needed ramps up to 6+ until you're out of AD Dice.

So beams would act like they did in 1ED - I think that sounds very reasonable - you are likely to be hitting less & less of the target so have a harder time to hit. Only question I have is would I be able to fire if my ship boresights on my move & is there a limit to when I couldnt fire eg if target moves out of front arc can I still use the raking fire rule ?

I was really just throwing out ideas, but...:

My idea focused on the situation where you 1) Had boresight and 2) the Target moved out of boresight, thus = You were in a situation that warranted "Raking Fire" and you would have the dice rolls for your beam weapons "ramp up" as previously mentioned (4+, then 5+, then 6+ like interceptors).

Possibly, with the addition that if the target moved out of the front arc you either 1) Halve the AD used, or 2) Begin the dice "ramp up" at 5+ or 6+, or even both at once. (To represent the fact if the target is close enough/moving fast enough to get out of -BOTH- your boresight and frontal arc, your beam shot isn't going to hit much of it).

So I guess the rule, if written as I proposed it, would be like:

If a target moves out of boresight for a ship's beam weapon, there is still a chance the target is hit by the beam shot. This is called "Raking Fire" and occurs when a target is boresighted by one of your ships, but that target then moves out of boresight.

If the target ship remains in the front arc of the attacking vessel, the beam weapon rolls a 4+ initially as normal; however, the dice rolls then rise incrementally, to 5+ then 6+ like interceptors, until there are no more dice to be rolled.

Additionally, if the target ship moves out of the front arc of the attacking vessel, the die rolls for beam weapons begin at 5+, and the number of AD on the weapon is halved, rounding down.

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

The changes to beam to-hit numbers are interesting, but what about non-beam boresight weapons?

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

I personally don't agree with it being more difficult to track the target. It's all done by sophisticated computer systems anyways.

All the tracking computer needs to do is calculate engine mass and thrust, and add trajectory with enough variable to account for sharp maneuvers. Oh well, it's not like we're going to change the boresight rule anyway.

Dark Angel

 

[wpngjstr]

Fortunately I've not had the problem described, though I do understand the concern.
The initiative system does favor Piranha over Sharks, even without the boresight issue, which is actually counter intuitive in terms of maneuverability- a smaller fleet is easier to coordinate so would be more likely to maintain a maneuver advantage. Large numbers do not give an advantage to maneuvering.
I rather like the SA option- it adds negligable complexity while allowing boresight ships a chance to fire. The option of moving 1 FAP per initiative point, rather than 1 ship, would help reduce the initiative swarm advantage, but would run into problems if buying up- do you only move half your Ka'Bin'Tak?

While I agree that you can reorganise your fleet as a work around (NOT a solution) it is inelegant, and should not be required due to a simple game mechanic. It also is likely to make fleets look more alike as everyone devolves into swarms.
Using a large number of swarm ships to negate the initiative check is awfully lazy, barely worthy of the term "tactic" at all. In many ways it makes fleet initiative modifiers pointless, since even if the enemy wins every roll, you still move your heavy hitters last by dint of superior numbers- that IS a problem with fleet composition

 

[Ripple]

Another good summation of the issues and why the current situation could be improved. Not absolutely needs to change NOW like the sag problem, but not as trivial to long term game enjoyment as discussing does fleet carrier regen expensive fighters either. (Statements after the gap in particular.)

Ripple

 

[GhostRecon]

The changes to beam to-hit numbers are interesting, but what about non-beam boresight weapons?

I wasn't even aware there were non-beam boresight weapons... >.>

Oh, now I see them. Our infamous Drazi friends <.<

Well, in their case, I suppose halving the AD dice instead of ramping up the dice for non-beam boresight weapons would work. Not sure, I've never played with non-beam boresight weapons (Nobody plays Drazi) so I don't know how effective they are as-is, and so can't comment on their specific balance.

However, I think halving AD dice to still hit a target that moves out of non-beam boresight would be fairly balanced. It means you still needed to have boresighted the enemy -before- he moved out of it, so the dynamic is still there, but him having more ships to move than you means that you don't miss your boresighted shots entirely (And, I suppose, if they moved out of boresight and the front arc the addition that you lose an additional half of the remaining AD, so effectively 1/4th of your shots can be fired at a target that moves out of boresight and front arc).

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

It would make more sense to find out why the boresight mechanic was introduced. Was it balancing to curb the increased effectiveness of EA and other races? Was it assumed that they had it on the show? Was it adapted from an old game system?

This would help figure out why it's there and, from there, find out if it needs fixing.

Dark Angel

 

[ShopKeepJon]

It would make more sense to find out why the boresight mechanic was introduced. Was it balancing to curb the increased effectiveness of EA and other races? Was it assumed that they had it on the show? Was it adapted from an old game system?

This would help figure out why it's there and, from there, find out if it needs fixing.

Dark Angel

It is there primarily because we see a lot of ships firing only directly ahead in the shows. (I.e. they seem to be what we call boresight weapons.)

Because of the constraints imposed by television production schedules, cgi teams didn't always get the effects right, so we can't be certain that those weapons were "supposed to be" boresight, but they usually fired straight ahead and that's what the game designers chose to go with.

I personally like the feel that this gives to some fleets and would like to keep it in some recognizable form.

ShopKeepJon

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

The only ship that I see firing straight ahead is the White Star and the Omega. In Season 4, we see the Omega firing in all directions with its forward guns... yet the White Star only always fires directly ahead.

From the show, it appears that if the Omega is boresight, then the White Star should too.

Dark Angel

 

[GhostRecon]

The problem I see and the solution I tried to focus on is that while the shows may have boresighted weapons, in the game we have no mechanic in place to represent ships being raked by beam fire because they maneuvered out of the shot. Instead, boresight weapons are entirely hit and miss, and are in large part effected by the presence of other ships that serve as initiative sinks. The series doesn't show either of those deficiencies.

 

[Triggy]

From the show, it appears that if the Omega is boresight, then the White Star should too.

Dark Angel

Ooh, don't get started on this debate...

Suffice to say, there are significant supporters of "the White Star should be boresighted" argument and there are significant supporters of "the White Star shouldn't be boresighted" camp. I err towards the former but a large part of that is ship balance as well as the on screen canon (the extra AD makes the White Star very powerful now).

Boresighting was introduced as a mechanic to represent what was seen on screen, not as a balancing mechanism - the AD and stats were decided after the general weapons layouts.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

From the show, it appears that if the Omega is boresight, then the White Star should too.

Dark Angel

Ooh, don't get started on this debate...

No, really! Don't go there!

If you want some "amusement" do a forum search for arguments for and against this. In a couple of days (when you've read all of the posts) you'll see what we mean...

ShopKeepJon

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

The only ship that I see firing straight ahead is the White Star and the Omega. In Season 4, we see the Omega firing in all directions with its forward guns... yet the White Star only always fires directly ahead.

From the show, it appears that if the Omega is boresight, then the White Star should too.

Dark Angel

the official (as in from Mongoose) reasoning is that the White Star is manouvrable to tilt the nose to bear on target, fire the neutron laser and return to its' original course without effort, which the bulk of ships with boresight are incapable of.

(Also, we see Drazi and Narn ships firing lasers along boresight arcs in season 5)

 

[Ripple]

Well we also see an omega slashing it's laser sideways through a pair of side by side Liners... do that with your bore sight...=p

Ripple

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Well that was an Omega with the refit that gives forward mounted weapons. Same with the G'Quan that fired lasers at an angle in series 2.

 

[wpngjstr]

Nooooo! It has risen once more from the grave, the argument who's name cannot be spoken!
Quick, get steaks and garlic! (and maybe some frankfurters , BBQ sauce,...)

 

[Sock]

ya know I like the idea of boresighting the white stars, I mean it would help balance them now that they are not only effective, fast, maneuverable weapons platforms, but also scouts, making them boresighted like in the show seems like it would not only be fluffy, but a balancing effect

 

[dag'karlove]

OHHH Crap!!!!!! :roll: