Suggested Skill Cap levels for NPCs ??

[MrUkpyr]

In Signs & Portents issue 63, Alex Greene in his Medic article talks about capping skill levels based on the tech level of the world.

"Referees are advised to cap levels in all the Sciences and Medic to the suggested skill cap level for NPCs at that tech level. Thus, if a TL 8 soldier were wounded on a TL 3 world, the presiding medic’s skill could be no more than Medic-2"

I don't disagree with the idea, but I haven't been able to locate where he gets this from in the core book.

Would some kind soul please give me a page reference.

My thanks in advance.

 

[BP]

Actually I would definitely disagree with this...

TL refers to technology (implements of science and industry). And Medic refers to skill...

Especially in medicine - where some modern drugs derive from medicine men/witch doctor type ancient remedies... and some forms of ancient surgical/physiological practices may have been exceedingly advanced.

Such a cap attempts to define a rule where a referee's judgment is needed instead. I.e. a Medic-5 from a primarily TL-5 world may be less effective at treating say low-berth revival issues, yet quite effective in a combat triage situation where high-tech equipment is unavailable.

Arbitrary caps sound good in theory, but would be limiting in practice. While common NPCs should not be extreme experts (especially on backwards low-TL worlds) - special NPCs are often created for exactly this purpose.

And I haven't seen mention of this in the MgT ruleset (and hope I never do).

 

[alex_greene]

Consider a TL 2 blacksmith faced with having to try and forge a hull plate patch with a simple carbon combustion forge, some tongs, a hammer and anvil. The hull plate he is attempting to panel beat is made of bonded superdense hull metal.

Try now to explain to said blacksmith the principles behind bonded superdense.

Similarly, try and explain to an apothecary what PET scans can do, or indeed try and explain to a TL 7 medic about TL 16 disintegrator therapy. She'd get the atomic theory stuff - knowledge of the principles behind PET requires some knowledge of subatomic particles and of radioactivity - but actually disintegrating objects? :shock: How's that done again?

If your Traveller Drifter player character came from a TL 1 backwoods, chances are she'll have seen such wonders over the years of wandering amongst the stars and hanging around mercs and rogues and other undesirables that nothing would bother her - and there'd be no capping her Sciences or Medic skills, should she be so inclined.

And nothing stops a Scientist from a low tech level world with no outside help from excelling and discovering a scientific principle that advances his world's TL a dot or two, and thereby gaining in Science.

But if the low TL world has truck with higher TL worlds, it's probable that the high tech equipment might have more scientific knowledge than the local could possibly absorb. Imagine Leonardo daVinci, the greatest mind of his day, attempting to work out the principles behind radiocarbon dating, or gravitics, or FTL travel, or gene therapy (or indeed DNA).

For all his brilliance, he only had access to the information present in his day - which really was not very much science at all. So even he would, in his day, have been stumped. He might have come up with some brilliant guesses, but those guesses, lacking the fundamental information we take for granted, would fall far short of the science we know.

 

[BP]

Blacksmith skill?

I could counter point each of these specific cases (high skill level blacksmith would likely understand annealing and doping for material strengths, and adjust fairly easily to practical high tech 'knowledge'; daVinci wouldn't get radiocarbon dating? - come on!). But again to my point - these are specific cases and handling them with arbitrary rules becomes an issue.

I think we can all agree that a WWI flying ace might not make the best helicopter pilot (or space ship pilot). :wink:

Yet the Red Baron would definitely be at least a Pilot-4...

Some things are obvious - Vacc Skill, for instance, is not likely one of our blacksmith's skills unless the referee comes up with a reason (as with your drifter example).

As a game mechanic - TL caps is way too arbitrary.

A more generic system might apply DMs for TL differences. So our blacksmith might have a chance with Titanium steel, be near worthless with Cyrstaliron, and even worse than worthless with Bonded Superdense (his existing knowledge putting him at a disadvantage even compared to one who was totally unskilled).

A Medic-5 from even a low TL would still have a great deal of knowledge about anatomy, pharmacological reactions, etc that could translate directly to much higher tech. Most tech is designed to provide diagnostic information and simplified treatment options - so negative DM's for using the tech - but skill should count as positive DM's for diagnosing problems, seeking and accessing solutions, etc.

To use the example of the WWI flying ace - his actual flying methods would not directly translate to helicopter controls - but his developed 3D spacial skills, practical knowledge of lift and weather patterns and perhaps some of his aerial combat tactics should still give him a certain edge. Of course, some of this skill would put him at a disadvantage piloting a helicopter or spacecraft. Still he would be ahead of the unskilled - and a master in his own TL.

Caps would limit that and yet allow high TL Pilots to be better at aerial staffing than the Red Baron!

So I am envisioning a good TL mod system must account for negative DMs which balance skills from low TL backgrounds working in high TL scenarios as well as high TL backgrounds working with lower TLs (i.e. the knowledge/experience at a given tech level can put one at a disadvantage versus an unskilled individual when the TL gap (+/-) becomes too great).

 

[rust]

To use the example of the WWI flying ace - his actual flying methods would not directly translate to helicopter controls - but his developed 3D spacial skills, practical knowledge of lift and weather patterns and perhaps some of his aerial combat tactics should still give him a certain edge.

Just think of Erich Hartmann. He learned flying on gliders and on biplanes
with WWI technology, became a (probably the) fighter ace in WWII and
taught the first jet pilots of Germany's post war air force.
He obviously had no major problems to adapt his skills to new technolo-
gies, and I have no doubt that he would also have been able to fly a
spaceship after some familiarization and training.

 

[alex_greene]

Your examples come from around TL 4 -5 and on upwards.

Think of Paracelsus, or the father of Terran medicine, Hippocrates.

Exceptional minds, such as those of Leibniz and Newton, Kepler and Priestley, were the exception, fueling the rise in TL from 2 - 3 and from 3 - 4, whereupon without certain inhibitory sociopolitical influences progress more or less seemed to become self-sustaining.

However Newton would have struggled around the time of Pythagoras.

AND PLEASE NOTE. This is only Science and Medicine I considered capping for unaided medics with only the local TL's resources to hand.

Nothing inhibits or caps the other skills in any way, shape or form. Engineering, for example, or Mechanic (does blacksmithing come under this skill?) and certainly not the usual hacking, slashing, stabbing and shooting skills so indispensable to player characters ...

 

[kristof65]

Try now to explain to said blacksmith the principles behind bonded superdense.

This assumes that the TL2 blacksmith has no prior knowledge of high technology and/or no education. This may well be the case for isolated planets, newly discovered civilizations, etc.

However, for an interstellar society like the TI, where starships are stopping by a planet on a semi-regular basis, it really shouldn't be a common assumption.

FREX, isolated villagers in Africa or South America may not be able to make a celphone, repair one, or even re-charge it's battery, but it doesn't mean they don't know what it is, and some of them may even understand the radio principles behind it.

IMO, TL is an indicator of what a society can build/repair, not at all what they know. So if that TL2 blacksmith just happens to be highly educated, his problem in repairing your ship might not be that he doesn't understand the principles behind bonded superdense, but merely that he doesn't have the tools needed to deal with it.

 

[rust]

Some science fiction RPGs use modifiers based upon the character's fa-
miliarity with equipment of a certain tech level, and this is also how we
handle it in our campaign.

In most cases there is no modifier for one or two tech levels below the
character's own tech level, but modifiers begin at two or three tech le-
vels below and one tech level above his one, and the modifiers increase
with each tech level further away from this.

In our campaign we treat all activities involving equipment (or requiring
specific knowledge) of two tech levels below or one tech level above a
character's standard tech level as difficult (- 2).
Such activities then become very difficult (- 4) for three tech levels be-
low the character's own, impressive (- 6) for four tech levels below the
character's own, and impossible for lower tech levels.
They usually are also impossible for more than one tech level above his
own.

A character can famliarize himself with lower and higher tech levels, but
this takes some time, and he can only do so for one tech level and one
skill / area of knowledge at a time.

For example, a medic from a TL 5 planet who wants to use TL 6 equipment
has a modifier of - 2. If he wanted to use TL 7 equipment, he would first
have to familiarize himself with TL 6 medical equipment, which would
again give him - 2 for the TL 7 equipment, and could then continue to
train himself up to TL 7.

This would still only allow him to understand and use common medical
equipment of the higher tech level, it would not eliminate the negative mo-
difiers for other fields of knowledge and equipment - he would still not be
able to handle a TL 7 computer.

The time required for familiarization depends very much on the situation.
With an experienced instructor of the other tech level, it can take only an
hour, with only some media (books, database, etc.) it usually takes at
least a day (usually more), and if completely new concepts have to be
learned and understood, it takes usually more than a week.

 

[BP]

Your examples come from around TL 4 -5 and on upwards. ...

Your blacksmith could be TL-1/2 and my medicine man/witch doctor could be as well. The Red Baron would be TL-3/4.

...However Newton would have struggled around the time of Pythagoras.

My point about TL mods applying both ways...

AND PLEASE NOTE. This is only Science and Medicine I considered capping for unaided medics with only the local TL's resources to hand.

Nothing inhibits or caps the other skills ...

Indeed, please note - I enjoyed your article! It is well written, useful and I applaud you for sharing it!

In truth, the only thing I really didn't care for was the lumping together of sciences and medicine and the use of the cap on skills based on TL. (I do realize you made it just 'advised' in the original paragraph, but the phrasing in the TL sections implied otherwise - and, I felt it didn't take into account the points I'm trying to make here...)

The TL could have little to do with say the level of Social Sciences. Many ancient civilizations and not so ancient ones appeared to have highly developed societies (which were wiped out by nature or by less civilized, but more technologically 'advanced' cultures).

I could list plenty of specific examples in the physical and even space sciences - excepting the TL0 levels (and even then - our historical records preclude being specific).

When it comes to the Medic skill one runs up against the problem of specialties, such as pharmacy versus surgery and the tech levels required. The local TL2 medical practitioner may be highly advanced and know how to use scientific methods, metal surgical tools and local fauna - no reason a 40 year veteran of this era couldn't be a Medic-4 for these issues. Till treating higher TL problems - such as Low Berth trauma, radiation sickness, exposure to manmade toxins and bio agents, etc. Even in these areas his experience should count for something (positive and negative DMs). Again, these would need to be treated as special cases by the referee, or possibly TL mods, but limiting skill level is equivalent to my Red Baron example above.


As for the original post - I believe the 'Augments can interfere with medical treatment...' paragraph at the top of Core pg 89 may be what is being sought... (it provides for a negative DM to skill check based on TL differences of facilities). Note that this is not a cap or limit on skill level - only on the specific application of the skill (and in reference to available tech - not knowledge or experience).


I'd love to make a TL mod for skill checks - but considering myself not yet at GameDesign-0 :wink: - I'm hoping my posts will stimulate other input to allow for a well deliberated game mechanic on a par with most of the others in Traveller. And something which is not only imminently playable, but believable in the generic application.

 

[Ishmael]

I've always gone with the idea that higher tech makes things easier to *use*, but harder to *repair*

As long as a mind is brilliant, it can understand things if it has knowledge of the foundations needed to understand things. The tech shouldn't matter. Imagination and logic have no tech level.

 

[BP]

I've always gone with the idea that higher tech makes things easier to *use*, but harder to *repair*

As long as a mind is brilliant, it can understand things if it has knowledge of the foundations needed to understand things. The tech shouldn't matter. Imagination and logic have no tech level.

Well, I wouldn't go so far on this... I know plenty of people with the fundamental knowledge to understand computer applications (math, logic, languages), but who would be useless trying to fix or update, much less create those programs in any reasonable amount of time.

When it comes to a skill check TL differences should have some impact - what that is may be a bit hard to define (left to the referee may be the only practical option).

Higher tech may not make things easier to use - just more readily available and powerful - and more importantly, just practically possible (i.e. - higher tech means jump capability in Traveller versus interstellar reaction drives). Whether higher TL equipment is harder or easier to repair is also going to be dependent on its nature. Solid state electronics are easier to repair than earlier TL vacuum tube versions - yet more advanced TL surface mount versions are generally harder - in these cases it amounts to physical constraints of component size, complexity and thermal characteristics. New tech can have built in diagnostics or fewer parts and actually be easier to diagnose and physically repair.

 

[alex_greene]

Oh, another thing.

The factors that drove geniuses to be exceptional at lower tech levels was not their skills, but their Intellect and Education. A high enough Int DM and Edu DM can overcome any barriers.

But it took some pretty huge leaps of understanding to come up with the technological developments that shaped the world in which we live.

The particular developments I am thinking of include:-

- Electricity, magnetism and the understanding that they are one and the same force (electromagnetism);

- Radioactivity, leading to the modern understanding of the principles of particle physics, the strong and weak nuclear force, nuclear fission and fusion, and in Traveller nuclear dampers, bonded superdense and so on;

- Relativity, leading to the drive to develop FTL travel and gravitics;

- Powered vehicles;

- Powered flight, paving the way for rocketry and space travel;

- Inheritance, leading to the structure and functions of DNA, paving the way for modern biochemistry and pharmacy, along with whole new avenues of forensics and medicine;

- Radio, leading to modern television etc.;

- The printing press, leading to the flourishing of science;

- The electronic switch, leading to computing and the internet.

The factor that liberates any cap in development of science and medicine is the printing press. With it, knowledge becomes available to a whole lot of people who would have floundered without it.

I have been talking throughout about local characters, in a low tech culture untouched by anything resembling the modern world. If a high tech ship landed somewhere on a TL 2 world and traded TL 3 artefacts, that's the end for the culture's natural development. Anything goes for the practitioners of science and medicine of that culture, once they get their hands on all those wonderful toys.

They just won't have figured things out on their own, and if they had had a potential daVinci or Newton in their midst, their cleverness would never be recognised because there'd be that "oh, someone's already worked that out. Here's the Wiki entry."

Now you understand why Star Trek had that pesky Prime Directive of Non-Interference going at all times.

Edit: I'm going to cite a classic work of fiction exploring tech levels and the limitations of knowledge on science and medicine: A Canticle for Leibowitz.

 

[Corvus]

The factors that drove geniuses to be exceptional at lower tech levels was not their skills, but their Intellect and Education.

This I agree with. Skill levels are gained by training and experience, not innate talent. Also, the skill system has to handle everyday use of skills, not just exceptional geniuses. Innate talent is modeled by Stat bonuses in MgT, not by high skill levels.

One problem with Medic skill at different tech levels is that "Medicine" at TL 3 is a completely different skill than at TL 10. A TL 3 doctor would be an expert astrologer, herbalist, and performer, while I imagine a TL 10 doctor being more of an engineer.

GURPS handled this situation by making knowledge that changes with technology into different skills, so Medic/TL3 and Medic/TL10 have to be learned separately.

Now GURPS uses more finely-grained skill sets than MgT, but you can get the same effect by using the character's homeworld's tech level as the skill base. A person from a TL 3 planet could have Medic 4, but this could only be applied to medical conditions treatable at TL 3.

 

[MrUkpyr]

I freely admit that this is an interesting discussion (grin).

But Alex, you forgot to answer my original question.

"Referees are advised to cap levels in all the Sciences and Medic to the suggested skill cap level for NPCs at that tech level. Thus, if a TL 8 soldier were wounded on a TL 3 world, the presiding medic’s skill could be no more than Medic-2"

Would some kind soul please give me a page reference.

How did you come up with the TL-3 medic's skill being no more than medic-2?


Looking forward to the answer, and to the continued discussion.

 

[BP]

Oh, another thing.

The factors that drove geniuses to be exceptional at lower tech levels was not their skills, but their Intellect and Education. A high enough Int DM and Edu DM can overcome any barriers...

While intellect is a measure of or characteristic inherent in the quality of one's skills - the factors that allowed 'geniuses to be exceptional at lower tech levels' are their proficiency in skills such as Mathematics, Spacial Perception, and Reasoning (in MgT these would be Engineering, Sciences, Medicine...). Intuition is also typically referred to as a skill. While education factored into their experiences - another aspect of skill - they obviously exceeded the education of their day. What we call intellect was valuable in that it was applied in developing their skills in relation to their peers. Also, many 'geniuses' facilitated the advancement of TL by theory, but didn't actually implement that tech.

Take Einstein for example. If he hadn't worked for a patent office, he might be a complete unknown today. He did not conduct any experiments or build any high tech devices. Most of his 'technology' came from Newton/Leibniz (and possibly long before such as from Madhava in the 14th century (?), and consider that the majority of ancient text were deliberately destroyed as well as lost due to lack of tech, disasters, etc.). The experiments with light that greatly influenced him could have been done at much earlier times (they just weren't, or are undocumented, or weren't available to Einstein).

Skill as defined in MgT is related to competence, training and experience - per 'Skill Levels and What They Mean' Core pg 51. Regardless of TL - one can be highly competent and experienced.

In the RW I knew a man who was the first to have his vocal cords re-attached (50's - wife showed me older Encyclopedia Britanica article). The Tech didn't 'exist' to do this (microsurgery) and he had laid on a cot in a China military hospital till the right (i.e. highly skilled) doctor had happened past him and wondered why he was there for so long with a gaping wound in his lower jaw/throat (shell fragments were lodged in his spine).

Int DMs and Edu DMs apply to a broad range of actions - but that does not mean they 'can overcome any barriers...' - just more apt to. I.E. just because one has extreme Int and Edu doesn't mean one can preform a particular task that requires a given skill.

Skill levels in MgT paint a broad brush - that is independent of TL. Particular actions are TL dependent - and this requires referee determination or additional complexity (TL skill levels as mentioned for GURPS; sub skills, etc.) to the rules. Capping skill level by TL doesn't resolve this well...

 

[BP]

As for TL limiting the application of skills due to lack of implements of technology...

Consider that a skilled, i.e. highly knowledgeable and experienced, doctor doesn't need CAT scans or even ultrasounds, etc. to diagnose say kidney stones, enlarged/ruptured spleens, appendixes, etc. In fact, communication, symptoms and touch with the right doctor (i.e. skill) will outperform most of these tech - especially when improperly used/analyzed.

And while such things as microsurgery use modern tech - lens, super fine instruments, fiber optics - one could come up with low tech equivalents with a high enough skill level. I.e. - magnification with water is actually used for the smallest micro circuitry today and polished crystals could be available even in ancient times (to the right individual). Local fauna could also provide the equivalent of high tech instruments (micro tubes/cutters, even the equivalent of fiber optics). Radiation therapy could come from natural sources (even without understanding modern physics in any way). TL is about the tools. Knowledge often may precede - but in other cases it is not required. I.E. most people have no real understanding of how most technology actually works (nor could they reproduce it). And in my experience most people who think they do - actually don't (think Newtonian physics vs. Quantum Mechanics if you want to paint a broad brush).

Consider Low Berth recovery - sure not a common problem at TL-3, but then again the equivalent injuries might exits in the seasonal extremes of certain worlds or even in the local environment (liquid gases may develop naturally, or even by available using low tech solutions; some symptoms could be equivalent to cell damage/blood issues treatable by local fauna or environments - such as local equivalent of a hyperbaric chamber). The exceptionally skilled medical practitioner on such a world may be able to treat the problems without ever understanding (or being able to operate) a Low Berth...

Even limb regrowth and genetics may be known to primitive societies (local creature's blood may have the right micro-organisms to facilitate growth from bodies own stem cells, etc.). And we do exotic surgeries today, even though we don't fully understand say how the brain really works (brain surgery) or the liver (liver transplants)... and all these generally require an experienced surgeon with the dexterity (the tools of the TL are just what was made or available = one does not require an air gun to insert a nail - it can just be more efficient).

In the RW, I fix computers with nothing more than my skill (based on 27 years), the software that exists on them and generally a paper clip (as trace cutter, gunk remover, disk ejector, contact cleaner, ground wire, structural support) and a few screwdriver bits. I remove and repair the damage from viruses/worms/trojans/malware (and applications and OS's <grin>) without any third party software ('antivirus' programs, etc.). I fix hardware with no diagnostic tools other than my experiences and senses (and the occasional refrigerator, cheap multi-meter). From a TL standpoint everything I use comes from several TL's earlier (even my software knowledge).

In MgT this is the equivalent of Skill level.

 

[The Chef]

i can concur with the above post.

i wen to my gp with stomach pains, all he did was a physical exam and said "you have appedicitus get to the hospital, here is a note, take this to the on call surgeon and get it out quick"

the surgeon didn't believe such a cursuery exam, ran me through every test imaginable (which took nearly 2 days) and then the cheif surgeon just opened me up "to take a look"

after 2 days of pain, tests, uncomfortable beds, needles etc, what was it?

addendicitus.

goes to show, skill and knowledge will out perform technology.

Chef