Steward Skill in Mrechant Prince

[smiths121]

Hi All,

The Merchant Career in the Core Rulebook has Steward on the Service Skills table, which makes sense to me. In Merchant Prince, Steward is only available on the Advanced Education of Merchant Marine or as a service skill to the Royal Trader. It is not available to the Free Trader Career.

I would imagine catering for the high passage is quite important to the free trader - bread and butter toward the mortgage re-payments.

Any thoughts?

 

[DFW]

I would imagine catering for the high passage is quite important to the free trader - bread and butter toward the mortgage re-payments. Any thoughts?

I'm sure it is important. You just don't learn how to be a Chef & care for the local Marquis while serving on-board a tramp freighter. You learn how at the Merchant Marine Academy or at some school sponsored by a high end liner service. Then, after you've been busted for stealing from passengers, you end up on some backwater planet in the Marches looking for work on a tramp as they won't look into your background too closely... :twisted:

 

[rinku]

They basically screwed up. There are a few examples of unexpected skill drought even in the basic rules (no Medic skill in the Navy, for example); and while the connections rule and switching careers will allow some access to other skills, there is no real excuse for lack of bread & butter skills like this. At the end of the day, Steward is a *required* skill to carry passengers, so should be available to any ship merchant career.

The basic free trader has 10 staterooms. Basic economics says they should travel filled.

My advice is to tweak the skill tables to suit. I'd recommend replacing the Vacc Suit or Gun Combat entry on the Specialist: Crew table with Steward - both those skills are readily available from Personal Development and Service Skills. My preference would be to replace Gun Combat; sure life is rough for free traders, but they're not going to be actively looking for trouble, while they will be actively training pursers.

@DFW: No one's saying a steward on a Free Trader is likely to be a fancy chef - but they are the person with the job skills to manage the passengers for that week in jump space. That's actually the skills' main use; being a cookery or butlering skill is a secondary consideration.

I notice they don't have Medic there either, which is a bit of a worry.

 

[smiths121]

I would imagine catering for the high passage is quite important to the free trader - bread and butter toward the mortgage re-payments. Any thoughts?

I'm sure it is important. You just don't learn how to be a Chef & care for the local Marquis while serving on-board a tramp freighter. You learn how at the Merchant Marine Academy or at some school sponsored by a high end liner service. Then, after you've been busted for stealing from passengers, you end up on some backwater planet in the Marches looking for work on a tramp as they won't look into your background too closely... :twisted:

My original comment came from looking at the original Merchant Prince, Steward 1 was a rank skill for reaching Rank 2 as a Free Trader, ans steward was a skill on the Free Trader skill table. Whilst it makes the Steward skill quite hard to pick up, I really like your explanation.

 

[DFW]

My original comment came from looking at the original Merchant Prince, Steward 1 was a rank skill for reaching Rank 2 as a Free Trader, ans steward was a skill on the Free Trader skill table. Whilst it makes the Steward skill quite hard to pick up, I really like your explanation.

Thanks, I was just thinking about how it would happen in the real world.

As an aside; have you worked out the profit per ton of stateroom for High Passenger vs. avg. profit/ton of freight/spec cargo? Remember, net not gross.

 

[rust]

My advice is to tweak the skill tables to suit.

The same here. Some skill tables have obvious plausibility problems, and
some simply do not fit in with certain specific settings and campaigns. In
such cases I treat all kinds of rules as proposals which I can accept, mo-
dify or ignore, depending on the needs of my current setting or campaign.

 

[smiths121]

My advice is to tweak the skill tables to suit.

The same here. Some skill tables have obvious plausibility problems, and
some simply do not fit in with certain specific settings and campaigns. In
such cases I treat all kinds of rules as proposals which I can accept, mo-
dify or ignore, depending on the needs of my current setting or campaign.

Agreed - it depends on the sort of game you want. Steward being rare seems strange given they are the joint lowest paid on the ship. Working the cruise liners is popular for entertainers and cooks in the real world, and I imagine they need some training before they go on an outward voyage. It is clearly a popular vocation, at least for a short period of time today. The Citizen career has Steward, backing the "train to be a chef" theory of DFS, but not this is clearly not everyone's interpretation or taste.

I was looking to see if you could pay back a 20 year Free Trader without using speculative trade. Assuming 2 trips a month you need passengers to purchase a new Type A Free Trader, making them "bread and butter" for a Free Trader crew (economics are core rulebook not Merchant Prince).

Expenses
Monthly Running Cost (Life support/maint) @ 25,000Cr
Mortgage Repayment (brand new no ship shares) @ 152,363Cr
Crew @ 19,000Cr
2 x Class A Starport Berthing @ 7,000Cr
2 x 22 ton fuel @ 11,000Cr

Income
6 Passenger Staterooms 2 trips = 72,000Cr
20 Low Berths 2 trips = 40,000Cr
Freight (88-6) 82 tons = 164,000Cr

Profit @ 61,000Cr/month - so the passengers are your profit.
The freight alone does not pay the operating and mortgage costs of the ship. You need at least medium passengers to break even. Of course, even if you are conservative, you would do a few tons speculative to fill the cargo hold right up, and shipping mail helps a lot. If you take an old ship you can do without passengers (assuming a 10% discount for age), or if you have 10 Ship Shares as a party.

Having said all that, I like the rational of the Steward Skill being hard to get. With the tables as is, Broker skill is very common, Steward is not so common, so speculative trade becomes the norm, because a party of merchants will tend to be better at it.

 

[DFW]

You forgot about the original 20% down-payment on the ship.

Also, you don't need the Steward skill to carry High passengers. Skill level 0 is sufficient. That is why you see what you do in the rules...

 

[rust]

You forgot about the 20% down-payment on the ship.

I do not remember that the Mongoose Traveller core rules would include
a down payment ?

[On the other hand, we have 38° C, 77 % humidity and no air conditio-
ning, so my brain may well work part time only ... ]

 

[DFW]

You forgot about the 20% down-payment on the ship.

I do not remember that the Mongoose Traveller core rules would include
a down payment ?

Probably not as it talks about PCs taking over existing ship mortgage not the writing of the original loan. Luckily, most GMs know enough about finance that they can work out the simple stuff like this themselves.


Wait, no AC in those conditions! Holy CR#P! Drink a pint or two quick.

 

[DFW]

The wording is lifted from the prior edition as far as the formula and total amount paid. So whilst it isn't mentioned it comes out the same in the wash.

So, I don't think people would be having these small merchants built if freight & passengers only paid what the rules show. No bank would underwrite. On the other hand, just slash final ship construction costs in half and you have a workable system.

It's almost 5. Need to shower, go out to breakfast and then head over my Dutch friends house to watch the game. Got my yellow/gold shirt and red shorts ready... :lol:

 

[smiths121]

The wording is lifted from the prior edition as far as the formula and total amount paid. So whilst it isn't mentioned it comes out the same in the wash.

So, I don't think people would be having these small merchants built if freight & passengers only paid what the rules show. No bank would underwrite. On the other hand, just slash final ship construction costs in half and you have a workable system.

It's almost 5. Need to shower, go out to breakfast and then head over my Dutch friends house to watch the game. Got my yellow/gold shirt and red shorts ready... :lol:

Enjoy the football - had we worried, thought it was afternoon game or something. Another 2 1/2 hours before coverage starts on BBC1.

My thoughts on a couple of things you raised. You asked about the economics of carrying passengers, Clearly speculative trading should net you more money than Passengers assuming a sufficient pool of money for speculative trade. High Passengers which net you more money than freight, and so will Medium Passengers travelling 1 parsec.

Assuming 2 trips per month and high passengers:
a stateroom cost 1,000Cr per trip for life support.
a high passenger uses 1/2 level of Steward at 250Cr per trip (assuming 2,000Cr for skill 1).
a high passenger uses 1 ton of cargo space.
High Passenger income is 6,000Cr
Profit per ton of cargo is 4,750Cr

The reason Medium Passengers are also good is:
a stateroom cost 1,000Cr per trip for life support.
a medium passenger uses 1/5 level of Steward at 100Cr per trip.
a medium passenger uses 1/10 of a ton of cargo space.
Profit per passenger is 1,900Cr or 9,500Cr for 5 medium passengers.
Obvious split for a free trader is 5 Medium Passengers and 2 High Passengers for a profit of 19,000Cr for 3 tons of cargo (or 6,333 per ton of cargo space given up).

So assuming the swing in the core rulebook (35% from purchase to sell) is typical - this means you need a commodity with a base price of 12,858Cr per ton to obtain the same profit from the use of 1 ton of cargo space as a high passenger, more with the combo I suggested above. So I think squeezing the crew into double occupancy, hiring stewards, or taking entertainers as working passage is quite good bang for buck. Get the mix right and it is better income than running the mail.

The 20% down payment got discussed on another thread some time ago. Basically the concept of ship shares replaces this is my understanding.

Putting the numbers into my back of cigarette packet maths.
Taking over a mortgage (say 7% for ship shares for old ship) and having 8% Party Ship shares reduces the mortgage payment to 191,508Cr per month - no need to carry high or medium passengers to break even. So for the bread an butter approach of freight + low berth will break even, freight + low berth plus high passengers will give a profit.

I think financial houses will quite like the maths risk/reward of the Free Trader mortgage. They are effectively making 100% on their investment. In terms of risk, with a 15% contribution of ship shares, just doing freight, low passengers and high passengers (so low risk) give a gross margin (operational costs excluding service of debt) of 78% which is top notch for today's corporate market. Net profit (include the mortgage payments) is 31% which is still very good. Note these figures are from my back of cigarette packet spreadsheet, so should be taken as about. Its a win-win position, with low risk for the financial house. But they will need to see a business plan based around speculative trade (Broker skill) or passengers (Steward Skill), or ideally both.

I therefore do not see a need to tweak the construction costs.

 

[DFW]

I therefore do not see a need to tweak the construction costs.

Thanks for the breakdown. Did you factor in the tonnage for the staterooms (4tons) that could be used for cargo instead? I saw the 1 ton & 1/10 for baggage. Also, did you figure in the 20% down payment and the owner getting that back in a reasonable amount of time?

Ship shares DON'T replace down payment at time of construction. Only for purchasing a used ship. So the econ has to be figured from construction/financing forward. Otherwise there is no ship for the characters to have shares in...

 

[AndrewW]

At the end of the day, Steward is a *required* skill to carry passengers, so should be available to any ship merchant career.

Well, there is the option of adding luxuries without requiring the use of the Steward skill to carry passangers. Also isn't required for any low berth passengers.

 

[AndrewW]

Assuming 2 trips per month and high passengers:
a stateroom cost 1,000Cr per trip for life support.
a high passenger uses 1/2 level of Steward at 250Cr per trip (assuming 2,000Cr for skill 1).
a high passenger uses 1 ton of cargo space.
High Passenger income is 6,000Cr
Profit per ton of cargo is 4,750Cr

The reason Medium Passengers are also good is:
a stateroom cost 1,000Cr per trip for life support.
a medium passenger uses 1/5 level of Steward at 100Cr per trip.
a medium passenger uses 1/10 of a ton of cargo space.
Profit per passenger is 1,900Cr or 9,500Cr for 5 medium passengers.
Obvious split for a free trader is 5 Medium Passengers and 2 High Passengers for a profit of 19,000Cr for 3 tons of cargo (or 6,333 per ton of cargo space given up).

Life support costs are 2,000 for a single occupancy stateroom, or 3,000 for double occupancy. Also you might consider the stateroom space needed to carry stewards versus the tonnage used and salary savings for using luxuries instead.

 

[smiths121]

Life support costs are 2,000 for a single occupancy stateroom, or 3,000 for double occupancy. Also you might consider the stateroom space needed to carry stewards versus the tonnage used and salary savings for using luxuries instead.

Good point on the life support. That is another 750Cr off of the profit from high passage, and 150Cr from medium passage (watching football and drinking beer so could be wrong).

As you say Steward is a "required" skill for pretty much any Type A Free Trader, except where it is old and there is are plenty of ship shares around, or a good Broker skill, even then I suspect used while the party build up speculative trade money.

Luxuries are a very interesting choice, lose some Cargo space and carry the passengers pretty much free. Looking at the Floorplans, as an alternative, how about removing the crew quarter on the passenger deck (as under my maths it would be used for 2 stewards anyway), and extending the passenger common area with luxuries, this keeps your cargo bay at max.

Regardless of how you do it, Luxuries come down to a capital investment for a reduced operational cost. Assuming 2 stewards, you have an operational cost of 4000Cr (wages) + 3000Cr (life support) per month.

2 Stewards at that price happen to be equivalent to 4 tons of luxuries ( 2 x Steward 1). You only actually need three levels for my models in my previous post.

So if you do install 3 tons of luxuries it costs 300,000Cr. Divide this by the 7,000Cr gives a payback period of 43 months on the capital investment. If I had 300,000Cr I would be performing speculative trade if I could and not worrying about passengers at all.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Ship shares DON'T replace down payment at time of construction. Only for purchasing a used ship. So the econ has to be figured from construction/financing forward. Otherwise there is no ship for the characters to have shares in...

Nothing in core book about ship shares only allowed on an old vessel. Not logical either, a ship share is a ship share. The advantage of second hand is that they are cheap. Not sure where you got the 20% deposit from, is is an earlier version of trav, or a house rule?

For the banks/ship brokers the economics look good, remember the ship belongs to them until the mortgage is paid.

Having done some trading using the core MT rules, mainly using a fat trader, but also with some comparison to a free trader, it is possible to break even hauling freight and carrying passengers, pay your mortgage and make a modest profit providing you can manage 2 flights a month, with a pretty much full hold and with all your staterooms full. High passengers are obviously better, so you need a competent steward and/or luxuries. If you take many jumps with empty hold and few passengers you are quickly in trouble. Where passengers often really help is when there is virtually no cargo, quite likely in journeys between lower population worlds especially when there is a big differential in TL. The passengers won't cover the cost of the flight, but they do go someway to defraying expenses.

Someone brought up the old issue of well, "are small merchant vessel really likely", if you accept the trav assumption of fairly easy jump travel, then yes, the crew of independant free traders and the like are the white van men of space, shifting cargo and people on routes that the big operators just aren't bothered about, and picking up the slack on some more important routes

Of course, in true traveller style, it is just when the ship account is likely to fall short of meeting the mortgage that the most dodgy looking patron in the Spinward Marches turns up, with an interesting proposal ....

Egil

 

[smiths121]

Thanks for the breakdown. Did you factor in the tonnage for the staterooms (4tons) that could be used for cargo instead? I saw the 1 ton & 1/10 for baggage. Also, did you figure in the 20% down payment and the owner getting that back in a reasonable amount of time?

Ship shares DON'T replace down payment at time of construction. Only for purchasing a used ship. So the econ has to be figured from construction/financing forward. Otherwise there is no ship for the characters to have shares in...

Not factored in a payback period for 20% down payment.


MGT does not have the 20% down payment. Mortgage Made Easy p. 138, which made it into the pocket edition does not mention it at all, and starts off with the new price of the ship.

To be honest when we did the tramp trader campaign back in the old CT days, the 20% down payment never really entered into things, as someone at least mustered out with a free trader benefit which implied it had been paid (you get the finance from month 1 basically).

For new ships you require working capital to even consider purchasing. You would need to have 400,000Cr (architect fees) and 2 months mortgage (about another 400,000Cr) to pay the mortgage whilst the ship is built (40 days core rules, 48 days high guard) for a Free Trader equivalent.

 

[rust]

Someone brought up the old issue of well, "are small merchant vessel really likely", if you accept the trav assumption of fairly easy jump travel, then yes, the crew of independant free traders and the like are the white van men of space, shifting cargo and people on routes that the big operators just aren't bothered about, and picking up the slack on some more important routes

I have played this from the "customer side" of a frontier colony with a low
population, which would be unable to exist without those small merchant
vessels.

Such a colony usually does not have a sufficient amount of exports and
imports to keep a bigger ship on business and also not so many passen-
gers, although the need for passages is obvious - patients need medical
treatment the colony cannot provide, students need to go to universities
the colony does not have, and so on.

To encourage small merchant ships to visit such a colony at all, the "di-
rect" trade in cargo, mail and passages is usually not enough, so the co-
lony is likely to offer additional "indirect" benefits, which can be every-
thing from free fuel through fresh provisions to a free berth at the star-
port, free technical support and a cheap ship registry - in short, the kind
of "subsidies" the colony in question can afford.

This is difficult to figure into Traveller's trade system, but in my view it
would be an important part of the economy of a small merchant vessel
in one of those almost empty frontier regions.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Morning all.

Re shipping passengers and cargo, I have spent some time drawing up a series of tables as one of the articles I am doing. As part of that I broke down all three types of passengers and basic cargo to profit per ton based just on costs and income for jump one to jump 4. Crew wages were not included as they were on another table of ship profits.
The best profit on a jump 1 ship is low passengers. 2 passengers per ton, 100 credits cost per berth. Income Cr3800 per ton per month. Considerably more than anything else you can carry and also the most common form of passenger. One medic can handle all 20 of them on a Free Trader.
Medium Passengers are the worst possible thing to carry, unless you are getting Cr500 per ton from Merchant Prince with no broker do not carry mediums. Push the furniture aside and carry 3 tons of cargo in the empty staterooms. Yes I know staterooms are 4 tons but 3 tons is the stateroom and the other ton is coridors and the common area. No cargo in the corridors, Imperial Elf and Safety.