Stealth and a prepared opponent.

[Delthos]

I've found that stealth is not as good a defense as it is made out to be, especially when playing against an opponent that is prepared for it, which if you are playing a competent player, they will be if they know they are playing against Minbari. In most situations, other than tournaments, you are paying more for the ability than it is worth. Even in tournaments I suspect you will find many people take scouts, just to cover their bases, I may be wrong on this as I haven't attended a tournament.

Obviously this is coming from a Minbari point of view as they are the only fleet that relies on it as a primary defense for the entire fleet. I find myself relying on Flyer CAS more for defense than stealth. I'm not saying that stealth can't be a pain for those who are unprepared or are just rolling poorly (I devastated my friend's 5 War point fleet when he didn't take any scouts and he rolled consistent 1 and 2 for the game). I just feel it is over rated. I'm sure a majority of people will disagree with me, but I think some changes are needed. I don't feel changes are necessarily needed for the stealth rules, more to the Minbari fleet.

I didn't really play until 2nd edition, so where did all the complaints about stealth being too powerful come from, because I really feel it is underpowered now? It is far too easy for my opponents to get my stealth down to 2+ and 3+. Which means they are busting it on most attempts.

 

[Da Boss]

Stealth - ah much disussed topic - it is either the most powerful defencse in the game - ie it totally protects the ship form anothers firing or is does not seem to be switched on.

The Minbari fleet is very powerful (when stealth works) and still can be deadily otherwise - precise double damage beams and mini beams - often twin linked - nasty.

Actually, not everyone takes scouts to tournaments - you may not face Minbari - I don't with my Centauri with mostly twin linked guns as well - can live without it...............Shadows I do - because have to as we have such a small choice of ships ............The Shadow Scout is such a good ship - and it has also has stealth.

Also when you are playing the Minbari - use range or move through the enemy fleet at speed - you are usually quicker and often better at turning. if a Scout gets a reduction roll - make it a first target - again you often fire first due to high iniaitive- if its dead the Scout reduction goes -same with any bonuses from ships firing on you - if they are dead they don't help.

Lastly what changes would you make - rembering that when Stealth works it can be extremely powerful - speaking as someone who had a Octurion following a Sharlin for 3 turns within 8" without seeing it once!!!

 

[CZuschlag]

Some thoughts:

There is a ton of stealth bonuses in terrain. If nothing else, bunker in dust clouds for a while.

Your Teshlan is amazingly quick. A 21" APtE is not small potatoes. Use that to deny as many close-range turns as possible. Never try to fight out the tarball, disengage and re-engage at range. Da Boss is spot-on here.

Killing out scouts is a dangerous business, as Scouts can live due to Stealth, too. It's usually one the critical decisions for the Minbari in the game. I tend to prefer removing firepower, myself, but I've only run the Minbari about 4 times, total.

Fighters as scout function reducers are a major problem, especially as all the CVs in the game have gotten much more competitive. You'll end up needing to buy the expensive Morshin in bigger battles just to be OK here. That's a very expensive solution to the problem, mind you.

As to reloadable E-mines and, in particular, pak'ma'ra Plasma Webs, remember that if it's not a squadron, it's not an Emine. In regards to the Narn, go for reloadable emines first (duh). In regards to the Gaim's emines, refuse to play a broken race.

 

[alpha_construct]

We've had the same problem. Its not that it is too powerful its just that it is too random. Sometimes the defender doesn't get their worth out of a ship while sometimes the attacker doesn't really feel like they are playing when they just can't get through the stealth.

What if stealth was changed to a pseudo hull number. For instance stealth 6 would give the ship a hull of 6 against everything, including beams, with normal modifications for range, scout, being hit, running silent, terrain, ap, and sap? Anything above 6 would still need 6s to hit (Beams never going under a 4+ regardless of modifiers, but could go up to 6s). The numbers would obviously have to be changed and tested. This would mean stealth would almost always be active, but the attacker would still get to fire their weapons.

Once you get in close and start hitting them the stealth score would probably drop to or below their hull value. If the modified stealth score is ever equal to the hull number or less the hull number becomes the normal target number again (beams needing 4s again). Just an idea, not really sure how practical it is.

 

[Da Boss]

There are quite a few similar ideas floating about on the forum but no reason not to try yours out and let us know how it works?

 

[eldiablito]

I've sorta come to the same opinion as the original post; The Minbari are not quite as competitive when compared to other fleets (Centauri and Narn are both great examples). That Stealth is just heaven when I play against an opponent who cannot make their rolls, but most of the time, it is fairly easy to drop a Minbari ship.

Taking out someone else's Scouting is great, but often times, they are the smallest threats because there are some bigger, nastier ships driving straight down the Minbaris' collective throats. Also, if you've ever tried to kill a scout within the first volley, it is not as easy as it looks. Often times, these scouts are hiding behind every other ship, trying to be as inconspicuous as possible. An Oracle (for example) will usually be more than 20" away so you are not shooting your mini-beams at it. Also, it would take a fairly lucky Tinashi beam to take it out before the enemy can react and use this stealth reduction. At Stealth 3+ and 16 hull damage, it would take some serious luck for a Battle level ship to take down a skirmish ship before the damage is done. Although I think it is a good thing that it takes more than a single volley for a Battle level ship to take out a Skirmish ship, I am stating that the strategy of aiming for enemy scouts isn't exactly the best option much of the time; you want to use the DD, P Beams to take out enemy capital ships, right? I guess a Sharlin could be expected to take out an enemy skirmish ship in one volley, but is that REALLY where we want to dedicate our 8AD, DD, P Beam weapon, even in the early stages of the game?

Another way that many opponents reduce the Minbari stealth is to use energy mines or fighter swarms. Most opponents I know ignore the Advanced Anti-Fighter because most targets don't have enough dice to take out tons of fighters. With even only 1 hit, that reduces the stealth by another point. With some bad placement, that same energy mine can reduce several ships' stealth (it took me a few games early on to learn that one).

Finally, there is range. I've tried the close up Minbari fleets (Torotha, Tigara and Troligan) and they do alright, but are seriously giving up quite a bit for advancing within range of their 4" SAP weapons. Also, because of their short range weapons, there is the tendency to cluster up and make yourself more vulnerable to energy mines.

All this comes to a previous post on a different thread. I sort think that the changed mechanics of stealth in this edition went to far to balance the Minbari. Sure, they would be REALLY scary if you could not reduce their stealth, but right now, it seems too easy. Also, the fairly thin hulls for their priority level and low-ish damage and crew scores make them easy to crush once you get past that single stealth roll. This fleet, probably could use a small (ever so small) boost. Be it 1-2 more AD on their weapons, a sliver of more hull and crew damage points or a general improvement in their hull scores, I don't know... What I do know is that the supposedly, less advanced races seem to be able to dish out quite a bit more hurt and take a significant more damage than this iconic race.

 

[Poi]

Its not that it is too powerful its just that it is too random.

And there is the main problem with Call to Arms. Stealth, Beams, critical hits. All very random.

Awesome when they work, hell on earth when they don't.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Its interesting that the debate about the random elements should arise, I agree with Poi, but I've been banging on just lately about how the random elements should be made a little more reliable again. Then, while watching a game in which a hunter heavy psi-corp fleet, and a vorlon fleet bashed heads, both had utterly crap beam rolls. Then I thought, how bloody boring would the game become, if those random elements were removed . . . by whatever means. Even though I rant and rave when my beam rolls desert me, or I can't roll stealth rolls for toffee, it still provides for an interesting game even though I may not realise it at the time.

Slowly I'm beginning to get quite fond of things just as they are.

 

[Da Boss]

Fighters a problem - take a Ashinta - just great ships AAF 6 and Escort - 12 dice on Intensfy Defensive plus excellent damage and crew 38 and 42 -on a raid level ship mind you.................and of course all round twin linked minibeams, good range ignore interceptors annd laugh at hull 6..........scary ships I have found - TGT has taken squadrons of them to tournaments and wiped the floor with opponents including me.

Also remember hyperspace/JPBombing/all ships having AJP - if it allows - its very useful for a Tigara to drop in next to an enemy ship and pulversise it. Like the Shadows its a joy to be able to use it and very scary to face............

Do you use the Leshath - if you do - they might as well not have stealth defences - one thing that does worry our Minbari player is the ISA with Leshath Scouts - they die as quickly as he can manage it.

Is Stealth too good or two bad - I don't think so - is it a fun mechanism hmm ...........maybe not...........

One more thing - both players saying stealth is not good enough also mention that - "with bad rolls from the opponent they wiped the floor with them" what proportion is it and if it was more would not the broken flag come up from the other side..............?

I don't play Minbari - but have fought them plenty of times and they are quire capable of holding their own against any enemy IMHO. Of course in a campaign they can also make you re-roll a successful stealth check :shock:

 

[Poi]

Of course in a campaign they can also make you re-roll a successful stealth check :shock:

This is what breaks stealth more than anything else. Not a damn thing I can do if my bonehead opponent has won a few games, except stick my head between my knees and kiss my arse goodbye.

 

[Delthos]

Also remember hyperspace/JPBombing/all ships having AJP - if it allows - its very useful for a Tigara to drop in next to an enemy ship and pulversise it. Like the Shadows its a joy to be able to use it and very scary to face............

Tried it, but you gotta roll a 6 in most games to pull it off, unless you get some good crew qualities. Therefore it's not that effective.

One more thing - both players saying stealth is not good enough also mention that - "with bad rolls from the opponent they wiped the floor with them" what proportion is it and if it was more would not the broken flag come up from the other side..............?

In case you don't want to read a long post, no he didn't feel they were broken in the other direction. He completely acknowledged his poor dice rolls.

The one game it happened in was a 6 War game, Carrier Clash.

As it was my friends first time playing against the Minbari I just took a bunch of stuff with no real rhyme or reason. So did he and he chose to ignore my advice to take a Scout.

He had approximately, maybe a little more or less, exact ships and numbers are hazy. It was over a month ago.

1 Adira
1 Octurian
3 or 4 Elutarians
2 Liati
8 Vorchans

I had approximately,

2 Sharlins (one standard and one varient)
1 Troligan
1 Morshin
1 Veshatan
2 Leshath
1 or 2 Tinashi
1 or 2 Teshlan
7 Torotha

In this case he rolled an ungodly number of 1's and 2's for the game, but he didn't know the Stealth rules so was going against Stealth 5 and 6 for most of the first two turns. By the middle of turn 3 and the end of the game as we ran out of time, I had destroyed 2 Liati's, 2 Elutarians, 1 Vorchan, most of his fighters, and had heavily damaged 3 other Vorchans, 1 Elurtarian, and brought the Adira down to half it's damage and had it crited to a point where it was in bad shape. I hadn't yet fired the 2 Sharlins, one Tinashi, and the Morshin that turn. I would have probably taken out the Vorchans and the damaged Elutarian and done a bunch more damage to the Adira. The two shots of his for the entire 3 turns that actually got through stealth were the Elutarians firing their Ballistic Torpedoes. Doing about 10 damage to each of the Sharlins. Other than that damage, I didn't have any other damage to any of my ships. I had lost only one stand of fighters do to my Morshin replenishing fighters very well.

I don't attribute that completely to poor rolls though, because the Liati's were dodging like crazy, but they were dodging through the middle of my fleet and I was pouring a lot of firepower into them. By all rights he dodged much more than he should have. As I said he was rolling against 5s and 6s for the first two turns. His biggest problem was not knowing how stealth worked. He rolled 3s on many of the 4+ stealth rolls he had when he was close, he just didn't have scouts to help out.

It was quite different in our last game though. He reviewed the stealth rules and came prepared to fight. This time it was a 5 Raid Space Superiority.

This time he had
1 Sulust
1 Balvarin
3 Vorchan
2 Corvan
2 Rutarian Wings

Not wanting to completely destroy him and demoralize him I went with a less effective fleet.

I went with
2 Tigara
1 Teshlan
1 Leshath
1 Torotha
1 Nial Wing
1 Flyer Wing

I didn't play to my full potential and made a couple dumb moves. Not thinking I kept the Tigaras and some fighers in hyperspace. I realized after the fact that if I used them the way I was planning the fighters would get stuck in hyperspace. So I kept one Tigara in hyperspace to save the fighters, when I would have been better off just having both leave hyperspace and attack and abandon the fighters. I panicked, when I should have said "See ya!" to the fighters. I tried JPB with the two Tigaras, but failed needing 6s.

The biggest change was him knowing the stealth rules and using the scouts to good effect. Then using that for a cascading effect. Picking the one high priority ship, using the 2 scouts to make sure he got the stealth reduction, then hitting it with something with in 8", to quickly drop it's stealth to 2+ and 3+. Once a ships stealth is down to 2+, it pops quickly. When we quit at the end of turn 5 I had my undamaged Leshath left. I had destroyed his Balvarin (with all fighters on board, for some reason he didn't scramble his fighters), crippled one Corvan, brought one Vorchan within 1 point of being crippled, and damaged his Sulust, and took out a couple more fighters.

His rolls weren't phenomenally good like they were bad in the other game I spoke of. He was rolling quite average in this second game, it just made a huge difference knowing the stealth rules. Poor rolls played a part in the first game's outstanding stealth performance, but not as much as not knowing the rules. If he had known the rules, I know he would have done better in the first game.

I should point out we have been playing on a slightly smaller table than most people. His table is 3' 8" by 5' 9" (his dining room table, my dining room table is smaller). I'll have to see how things change once I get a game table set up in my new house.

My biggest problem is that it is far too easy to reduce Stealth to 2+ and 3+, making it overrated. I know that there are ways to increase it, but they aren't guaranteed or a good option. Run silent isn't useful except in scenarios where you need to run. Even then it isn't all that useful as giving up shooting for a small stealth boost isn't as good as APTE and still being able to fire. Gas clouds aren't something to rely on, if you are generating terrain randomly as you should.

 

[Da Boss]

Hi

Couple of things - I meant if stealth was harder to break would he then consider it too good.......?

You said you went with a weaker fleet - play him with a normal fleet on a larger table.............

He has to work to get the stealth breaks - being within 8", +1 for shooting and scout rolls (which you have to make on a 4+) - it also sounds as if you took out the majority of his fleet? We all make errors and you said you made some as well - a few better and he may still have lost?

Try a few more games and see how it goes

 

[skavendan]

Being within 8" of a Minbari battle group could be classed as suicide.

Make good use of terrain + learn to keep your distance from enemies.

Divid and conquere as they say. Make sure you have a rough Idea what your facing and how to handle it.

Last time I faced Minbari was so frustraitting 16 attemps at firing and not a single shot got off....

 

[Taran]

Its interesting that the debate about the random elements should arise, I agree with Poi, but I've been banging on just lately about how the random elements should be made a little more reliable again. Then, while watching a game in which a hunter heavy psi-corp fleet, and a vorlon fleet bashed heads, both had utterly crap beam rolls. Then I thought, how bloody boring would the game become, if those random elements were removed . . . by whatever means. Even though I rant and rave when my beam rolls desert me, or I can't roll stealth rolls for toffee, it still provides for an interesting game even though I may not realise it at the time.

Slowly I'm beginning to get quite fond of things just as they are.

I have to agree, at the Maven tourney, my Psi-Corps opponent and I couldn't hit squat with our beams, but I killed his Marathon with my Molecular Pulsars...


As for Stealth, it's about as effective as Dodge. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but over time it evens out...