Stateroom sizes

[Jak Nazryth]

(here we go again)
Everyone knows a standard staterom is 4 tons, with a portion of that used elsewhere in the ship as common spaces etc..
My question and idea is about the "actual" size of the stateroom.
For years with CT they have always been drawn as 3 spaces (I use "1 space" to mean "floor space" equaling 1 ton.... 1.5 meters x 3 meters... 2 "squares" on a deck plan)
Anyway when I started playing T20 and GURPS, I designed most of my ships based on those rules... 2 spaces or 3mx3m floor space for the actual stateroom is indicated in GURPS and T20.
Now that I'm switching to Mongoose, all the staterooms are back to 3 spaces again, so it's taking time to redraw all my deckplans in autocad to up-size everything. You would be surprised how increasing a standard state room from 2 spaces to 3 spaces has an effect on the internal layout!

So here is my question and proposal.
Can a 3 space stateroom be seen as a high class room, and a 2 space stateroom be seen as a middle class room? It might explain the difference in price other than "better food and service"... plus more room for personal cargo etc...

Just a thought... AND it would really help me in converting my existing deckplans to the mongoose rules!
Any thoughts?

 

[rust]

Can a 3 space stateroom be seen as a high class room, and a 2 space stateroom be seen as a middle class room?

Of course it can, but it is not the conventional way to handle it, your deck-
plans could seem strange to other Traveller players. I am afraid if you in-
tend to publish any of them it would be prudent to use the conventional
way of drawing staterooms. Otherwise there will certainly be some idi ...,
ah, experienced Traveller fan, who tells you that your deckplan is "wrong".

 

[AndrewW]

If the plans work for you no reason to change them.

 

[Captain Jonah]

its your deck plans

Nothing wrong with a six square stateroom as high passage, a four square as mid passage. May be a better idea to do them all as six squares and double up the mid passengers. Otherwise you run out of high passage six square staterooms and get some annoyed high passage type being put in a "SMALL" room and he is paying good money and expects better than the broom closet :lol:

 

[zero]

Well, the one answer is - "its your deckplans, assign what you want", though this is how I assign my staterooms;

2 tons (4 squares) for the room, 1 ton for "common space" (corridor squares in my plans), then 0.5 ton (1 square) to a Life Support area (this could be food storage and/or galley or just where you keep the algae water tanks for food and oxygen - depending on amount of squares you'll end up with 8) ) and 0.5 tons to an entertainment area (rec room or dining area).

You get half a ton of common space from lowberths too, as 2 take up half a ton, thats a quarter ton left over for each one. You wont get many squares that way, but it all adds to the corridors :lol:

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Can a 3 space stateroom be seen as a high class room, and a 2 space stateroom be seen as a middle class room?

Of course it can, but it is not the conventional way to handle it, your deck-
plans could seem strange to other Traveller players. I am afraid if you in-
tend to publish any of them it would be prudent to use the conventional
way of drawing staterooms. Otherwise there will certainly be some idi ...,
ah, experienced Traveller fan, who tells you that your deckplan is "wrong".

OMG... here it is in black and white!
Page 67 of high guard!!! Very last paragraph lower right hand corner.
"...Staterooms actually average about 2 tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways aw well as galley and recreational areas...."
So the basic "average" state room IS a perfect square (2 tons) per the rules!
Some suites I've designed are 6 and 8 ton rooms for the uber rich and absolutely fabulous on a 1000 ton yatcht a number of years ago, but in most adventures, players deal in their own ships and normal sized stateroom.
True, I will design the way I want, but when these are published it would be nice for someone to say... "cool, I want to use that in my game" and have the design work 99% per published rules.

I'm going to make a blanket statement and say for my own personal designs that a high passage = a 3 ton room. If you look at the pricing on page 142 of the core book, high passengers are charged double that of middle passengers. I think that would buy a little extra leg room other than just better meals and attention!
So... when I publish my deck plans, the stateroom sizes will be designed "by the book". 8)

 

[zero]

I'm glad my answer pretty much is how the High Guard book does it too

What page was that from anyway? Cant seem to find it :?

 

[SSWarlock]

Page 67 of high guard. Very last paragraph lower right hand corner.

 

[phavoc]

Hrm... So this means that the Core Rulebook actually had the correctly sized stateroom, and pretty much everything else published is incorrect?

 

[DFW]

Hrm... So this means that the Core Rulebook actually had the correctly sized stateroom, and pretty much everything else published is incorrect?

The ships in MRB use 6, 1.5 meter deck squares for staterooms. As I do on my designs.

 

[phavoc]

Hrm... So this means that the Core Rulebook actually had the correctly sized stateroom, and pretty much everything else published is incorrect?

The ships in MRB use 6, 1.5 meter deck squares for staterooms. As I do on my designs.

That's right (at least about the core rule book). So what exactly is your point?

What I was referring to was the point raised earlier about stateroom size - on pg 67 of High Guard it states "Staterooms actually average about 2 tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors..."

The deckplans in the Core book are, with the publication of High Guard, now correct. Which makes the errata published for it incorrect, the deckplans in Traders and Gunboats incorrect, the deckplans in Merchant Prince incorrect, etc.

No one is disputing the size of the deck grids.

 

[AndrewW]

The deckplans in the Core book are, with the publication of High Guard, now correct. Which makes the errata published for it incorrect, the deckplans in Traders and Gunboats incorrect, the deckplans in Merchant Prince incorrect, etc.

Not really incorrect. Nothing says they have to be 2 tons of passenger space. Not every design is going to be the same. The usual size of staterooms on deckplans for Mongoose Traveller has been 6 squares so that's what has been used for consistency. Perhaps the statement in High Guard is what is incorrect, but I don't see it as an absolute and that either has to be incorrect.

 

[phavoc]

The deckplans in the Core book are, with the publication of High Guard, now correct. Which makes the errata published for it incorrect, the deckplans in Traders and Gunboats incorrect, the deckplans in Merchant Prince incorrect, etc.

Not really incorrect. Nothing says they have to be 2 tons of passenger space. Not every design is going to be the same. The usual size of staterooms on deckplans for Mongoose Traveller has been 6 squares so that's what has been used for consistency. Perhaps the statement in High Guard is what is incorrect, but I don't see it as an absolute and that either has to be incorrect.

Well, see here is the problem. The original core rulebook deckplans were "wrong" using 4 squares, and errata was released correcting them. Every book since then has used the standard 6 squares per stateroom. That's been a Travller (not just Mongoose) standard since day 1 (cept for GURPS, they used hexes).

If the statement in High Guard is incorrect, it needs to be listed on the errata. Before I posted I checked the latest version of the errata and there is no mention of this.

So the question I posed was concerning whether or not this rule invalidated all the existing deckplans.

So either the original deckplans in the core book were correct, and everything else is wrong, or the original deckplans were wrong, and this rule is wrong and needs to be added to errata #2.

 

[AndrewW]

So either the original deckplans in the core book were correct, and everything else is wrong, or the original deckplans were wrong, and this rule is wrong and needs to be added to errata #2.

Or neither, one is free to use the rule or not.

Actually, awhile back I did mention this discrepancy to Mongoose Publishing though didn't get a ruling on that one.

 

[DFW]

That's right (at least about the core rule book). So what exactly is your point?

Staterooms in MRB average 3 tons. (6 squares) NOT 2 tons (4 squares).

That's my point.

Why do you ask?

 

[DFW]

Every book since then has used the standard 6 squares per stateroom. That's been a Travller (not just Mongoose) standard since day 1 (cept for GURPS, they used hexes).

Incorrect. CT - MT used 4 squares in published designs.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I believe T20 also uses 2ton sized staterooms. GURPS in fact does use a 1 yard hex system for combat movement, but the rooms are still sized the same, a 2 ton room with the extra 2 tons in common space.
Which is why all my earlier deck plans are drawn as perfect 3m x 3m squares.
I honestly don't know enough about mongoose yet, original publications, errata etc... But I do find it curious that what some of you have pointed out, almost every single stateroom is represented as a 3 ton space even though high guard clearly indicates that state rooms "average about 2 tons".
In the end this is a very minor point but in my case, some of my deck plans don't work as well (but they still work mind you) when a bank of staterooms suddenly take up 1/3 extra floor space (taking out of total common space)
There are 1 ton staterooms in T20 and GURPS as well, basically like a sleeper car cabin. They provide just enough room for a desk, chair, and a fold-down bed(it folds down on top of the desk) but it has no fresher or anything else. Most of these types are working class cabins used for temp labor filling in a spot on board as they work their way across the verse.
Perhaps the rule in High guard alludes to some of the previous versions of Traveller. IN FACT... on page 95 of Darrians, all the staterooms for the 600 Ldil class Passenger Liner are drawn as 1 ton rooms (1.5m x 3m)! On page 94 of the same book, the short write-up on the ship describes the cabin layout maximizing communal space (educational and entertainment systems). This specific layout is the only example I've seen which gives some weight to the High Guard rule "...averages about 2 tons"
In any case here is my take on the apparent inconssitancy with the High Guard Rule and all the other mongoose...

A High Class passenger MUST be placed in a stateroom no smaller than 3 tons. A middle Class Passenger can be placed in a 2 ton sized room. If there are no high class passengers available, a middle class passenger can be placed in a high class room, but is still charged middle class pricing (just no special food or services) A middle class room can NEVER be charged as High Class pricing, no matter what kind of food or entertainment you include.
Therefore most common star ships provide a 3 ton sized room because it is the most flexible, having the ability to accept both High and Middle passengers. While a middle class room allows for more space in the common areas, a high class room provides for more private space, therefore the TOTAL amount space remains the same. The price of construction is the same, only the cost of operations change (more better food and personal attention to high class etc..)

Summing up here is the Jak rule.

1 ton room = working class (but communal freshers must be provide elsewhere) It also applies to large communal bunk rooms on military ships 1ton/bunk
2 ton room = middle class only (or working class)
3 ton room = High, middle class, and even working

Hope some of that made sense.

 

[rust]

It does of course make sense, but I doubt that any such rule is really ne-
cessary. Like airlines and cruise ship lines today, starship lines of the fu-
ture will certainly experiment with different approaches, some will offer
more space for more money to attract customers, others will reduce spa-
ce and price to attract customers, some will offer quality food and good
service, others will read up on what Ryan Air did in prehistoric times. In
my view different approaches and therefore different ship designs, instead
of a general rule followed by all, are what makes this part of a setting feel
plausible, and it gives one more choice to the characters when buying a
ticket to planet Kill'em'all.

 

[DFW]

But I do find it curious that what some of you have pointed out, almost every single stateroom is represented as a 3 ton space even though high guard clearly indicates that state rooms "average about 2 tons".
In the end this is a very minor point but in my case, some of my deck plans don't work as well

One important point to remember is: 2 deck square "tons" assume 3 meter height. My ceiling height on ship state rooms is only 2.1 meters (~7')...

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I use an architectural term "Floor to Floor" Height.
From one floor to another on an average deck is 3 meters, with approximately (sorry for mixing feet and meters) 2' of structure and mechanical space between floors, leaving 8' clear ceiling spaces.