State Room issue that's always bugged me

[Jak Nazryth]

Now that you have to pay for common space, even though you don't need it... still don't understand THAT particular rule, if I could wave a magic wand and instantly change one thing in the Mongoose rules (and every traveller rule) I would make the following changes. I think "common space" is supposed to take the place of "Luxuries" but do you still get the bonus to high passengers?

Small Cabin = 1 ton. Bascially a place of a bed that can fold up with a desk and basic storage under it. For low class passengers and working passengers. Just a place to sleep. Must use public toilets and showers etc..
Basic Cabin = 2 tons, can hold up 2 passengers normally or 4 (double bunk beds) for "steerage" class. No fresher, passengers must use public facilities.
State Room = 3 tons (As drawn in every plan)... same as a cabin but with a fresher and small kitchenette. The basic Traveller Stateroom
Larger Staterooms = Varies, simply add more tons, price of ticket is based on total area, say 1000 credits per "square" per jump. You can have suites with multiple bedrooms and living areas, etc.. for the ultra luxury suites.

Common space = must equal half the total tonnage of all crew and passenger accommodations. This includes corridors, lifts, vertical access shafts, airlocks, at least one public fresher, basic lounges and basic galleys.

Luxuries = Higher class accommodations like bars, galleys that serve real food instead of protein paste that is reconstituted into a "standard" meal by a standard galley equipment.

In that way you can swap out a stateroom for another internal component of equal size.
My biggest problem as an Architect pretending to be a space ship designer, is when my players want to "swap out 1 stateroom for a library". On a spreadsheet it's easy because they are both 4 tons. On a deck plan.... we all know the stateroom is really 3 tons, so a 4 ton box won't fit. The swap out is not so simple. It has never worked. That is what I would change. If you have to pay for common space now, simply remove it from the stateroom size and price completely.

 

[Condottiere]

It simplifies the concept of available facilities, like microwave, dishwasher and tumble dryer.

In a scout or freetrader, you do have the luxury of actually mapping them all out, as compared to the Tigress.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

Tigress?
Oh hell no! lol

I think for those of us who concentrate on creating deck plans, it's easier.
Long ago when I fist joined COTI back in the T20 days, I suggested adding a 2% or 3% rule for basic circulation.
It's getting into the weeds, I'm an Architect so I pay attention to that type of thing.
But now that "common space" is a line item under these new rules, it's seems like you could easily roll corridors into common space and reduce the size of the stateroom into what it actually is, a 3 ton box.

 

[AndrewW]

Long ago when I fist joined COTI back in the T20 days, I suggested adding a 2% or 3% rule for basic circulation.
It's getting into the weeds, I'm an Architect so I pay attention to that type of thing.
But now that "common space" is a line item under these new rules, it's seems like you could easily roll corridors into common space and reduce the size of the stateroom into what it actually is, a 3 ton box.

Check the overall tonnage of the ship. Each ton is usually represented by 2 squares on a deck plan (very large ships may use a different scale to produce deck plans that will fit on a page). You can vary this by up to +/- 10% as spacecraft will differ in the amount of space consumed by corridors, lifts, computer systems, life support, machinery and other items not included in the overall design system.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

... reduce the size of the stateroom into what it actually is, a 3 ton box.

Accommodation cabins can be as large or as small as you like. If you want single cabins for each person you can design it that way, or if you want barracks style dormitories with larger recreation areas you can do that way.

Remember:

Dual occupancy staterooms are computed at MCr0.25 and 2 tons per person. It is not necessary to purchase an entire stateroom just to accomodate an odd number of crewmembers; a half-stateroom or large triple-occupancy stateroom can be built.

Take a look at the Kinunir:

The crew numbers 45, plus 35 marines, and requires 4 single occupancy staterooms and 38 double occupancy staterooms (168 tons; MCr21).

Then take a look at the deck plan, we find:

1. First Squad Bay. Living quarters for ten marines occupy this room. Folding bunks occupy most of the space, but much is also devoted to personal goods storage.
2. Second Squad Bay. Similar to 1.
3. Third Squad Bay. Similar to 1.
4. First Squad Facilities. This area contains communal facilities such as washing
and fresher equipment for the squad.
5. Third Squad Facilities. Similar to 4.
6. Second Squad Facilities. Similar to 4.
7. NCO's Cabin. The marine senior NCO lives in this stateroom, although the
area also serves as the marine training office. The area has, in addition to bunk and personal goods storage, a small library of training manuals and tapes.
8. Force Commanders Cabin. The marine captain commanding the troops lives in this cabin. The shelving contains a shoulder holster and snub pistol for the captain's use.
9. Officer's Cabin. Although the lieutenants live in the squad bays, they maintain a separate cabin for the storage of personal gear, and for private reading, study and recreation. This cabin features lounge chairs, desks and reading materials, a computer terminal, and a large entertainment screen.

These are "staterooms".

10. Galley and Storage. This area contains food preparation facilities and food storage cabinets.
11. Dayroom. This large open area serves as dining area for the crew, and converts to recreation purposes at other times. A large viewscreen is set up on the forward wall, and storage cabinets along the port bulkhead contain a variety of recreational equipment.
12. Lift Shaft.
13. Exercise Room. This small room contains exercise equipment, a sauna, and a padded area for wrestling, and contact sports.
14. Recreation Room. This room is similar to 11, but is more informal.
15 through 32. Crews Quarters.
33 and 34. Corridors. ...

These are "staterooms".

4. Administrative Offices. Several desks dot this open area. File cabinets along the bulkhead walls contain paper and microfilm files of the routine operations of the ship.
5. Library. While the ship's computer contains operating data and general information, the library contains microfilm files and data not important enough for constant on-line access.
6. Officer's Mess and Ward Room. The ship's officers eat their meals in this area, and spend much of their free time here. The area contains several large tables, and a small bar. There is provision for conversion of the area to a film theater. The walls are dotted with relics and trophies of the exploits of the ship; specifically crossed cutlasses are mounted on the forward wall.
7. Access Shaft. Behind the bulkhead walls of this shaft are environment and power conduits, accessible by maintenance panels at three locations. They may be opened only my maintenance keys, and are effectively invisible to the uninformed.
8. Lift Shaft. The main elevator connection between decks is this elevator shaft.
9. Galley and Storage. Food storage and preparation for the officer's mess is performed here. The dumbwaiter at the forward end of this area provides access to galley and food storage on other decks. This galley is the best on the ship, and has the services of a cook who actually prepares food; the other galley facilities simply use a duty rating to quick-cook standard frozen meals.
10-23. Officer's Staterooms. These cabins are virtually identical, characterized only by the personal belongings brought by the individuals themselves. The following areas are of special interest-
13 and 19. Communal Areas. These open rooms have lounge chairs and entertainment facilities for off-duty recreation.
15. Flight Officer's Stateroom. A vertical shaft sealed with a hatch leads down to the boat deck. The hatch is concealed beneath a bunk, which is hinged to allow fast access to the hatch.
16. Captain's Cabin. This large, well-furnished cabin combines living quarters and office for the ship's captain. A detailed search of the room will reveal a wall safe concealed on the port wall ...

These are "staterooms".


If you want standardised 3 dT stateroom modules that is of course fine, but it also means that wardrooms and lounges will be very small unless you make the deck plans much larger than the ship, Tardis style.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PDT,

Technically any volume or space that is not clearly identified as something is considered "cargo volume or space." Passageways should be, in my opinion taken away from cargo volume/space of course the passageways could also be used to store extra material sort of like they did in WW I and WW II in submarines.

 

[Condottiere]

Take life support out of the equation, and you can furnish as you like.

I'm surprised that people don't commandeer one or two staterooms in a scout and turn it into a mancave.

 

[vladthemad]

"Life Support" isn't just the air you breathe, although that seems to be the main component everyone focuses on. It includes all the food, water, and waste facilities too. I'd argue that the costs of food probably take up the lion's share of the cost related to monthly life support, followed by water, then air. Granted you can live without food and water a might bit longer than you can without air.

If a married couple is on their honeymoon, or a couple of young lovers is on vacation, or a family of 4 with the parents in one room and kids in another.. Per the rules as written (in every version of Traveller) double occupancy is permitted but tends to "over tax" the life support system, making the stay uncomfortable.

MgT1 states "No stateroom can contain more than two persons however, as it would strain the ship’s life support equipment." So it's not double occupancy that strains it, but anything beyond doubling up.

However... in The Core rules, page 149, The cost for single occupancy is 1000 Cr and double occupancy is 3000 Cr.

That's odd, seems like it was a typo. On p.137 MgT1 shows life support costs as Cr2000 per stateroom with double occupancy being Cr3000. This way it's actually makes sense to make the crew double bunk. I haven't bothered to pick up v2, but in the beta materials I still have it shows the costs as Cr2000 for single and Cr3000 for double, was that changed?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

However... in The Core rules, page 149, The cost for single occupancy is 1000 Cr and double occupancy is 3000 Cr.

That's odd, seems like it was a typo. On p.137 MgT1 shows life support costs as Cr2000 per stateroom with double occupancy being Cr3000. This way it's actually makes sense to make the crew double bunk. I haven't bothered to pick up v2, but in the beta materials I still have it shows the costs as Cr2000 for single and Cr3000 for double, was that changed?

MgT1: Cr 2000 (or Cr 3000 for double occupancy)
MgT2: Cr 1000 (or Cr 3000 for double occupancy) + Cr 1000 per person

 

[vladthemad]

MgT1: Cr 2000 (or Cr 3000 for double occupancy)
MgT2: Cr 1000 (or Cr 3000 for double occupancy) + Cr 1000 per person

So they changed that from the beta to release? I wonder why?

 

[Condottiere]

When I was a college student, I would often buy mass quantities of ramen noodles, particularly when the local store had a sale.

Every once in a while, the store down the block from where I lived during my later college years would sell ramen noodle packets at a rate of 12 for $1. I would go in there and buy at least 60 of them, if not more.

I absolutely do not advocate eating ramen noodles on a consistent basis as a way to save money. They’re quite unhealthy. However, they are quite filling for the price and, in the eyes of a hungry college student, they seemed like a bargain. I could make two packets of ramen noodles for dinner, eat about 2/3 of them, and have the remaining 1/3 for lunch the next day. I did it regularly.

This would bring the cost per meal somewhere down into the $0.15 range, which is an incredible bargain.

Better yet, I found that if I “amped up” the ramen with things like chopped up carrots or some chopped chicken breast, I could still get a meal for a quarter or thirty cents or so, but the meal was quite a bit tastier, more fulfilling, and more nutritionally balanced. In fact, I would often eat this “super ramen” even when I had money in my pocket because I actually enjoyed it quite a bit.

I mention this because I know that, if I needed to, I could feed my family for a while on very little money. It wouldn’t be the most nutritionally balanced food, perhaps, but I could fill up stomachs for a pretty low price if I was ever in that situation.

....

One of the most valuable lessons that we learned along the way is that you can always live on ramen for a week or two – or more, if you need to – as long as you’re keeping yourself on a path so that you never have to do it again. (Unless you want to, of course.)

....

Much like my discovery that ramen can sometimes be made into a reasonably worthwhile meal just by adding a few ingredients, we also found that there were a lot of things in our money free weekends that were enjoyable enough to keep around even when we were free to spend money however we wanted.

Living on ramen or doing a money-free weekend (or anything else that involves an extreme short-term cutback on a budget item) is something you can sustain for a short burst, but it’s also very valuable in terms of figuring out what you actually enjoy in your day to day life because it forces you into new experiences – and sometimes new experiences, even under pressure, are just as good as the old ones.

 

[Infojunky]

I am amused at another one of the Classic discussions once again surfacing. Must say lots of good ideas and thoughts.

Here is how I handle life support.

General cost of 4 dTons, 500Kcr per person, this covers the volume and cost of core personnel spaces. Particularly cramped ships go down to the double occupancy rate.

On top of that I use the Life support supplies rule from Beltstrike as interpreted by the J. Andrew Keith in the Rogues in Space: Letters of Marque from Cargonuat Press. In which Sile Support is fractionated into Provisions and Life Support Supplies.

Provisions, i.e. food and other essentials 1 dTon costing Kcr 25 provides 286 Person/Weeks worth of support.

Life Support Supplies, Air, Water and related filters and essential maintenance supplies at 1 dTon costing Kcr 50 provides 100 Person/Weeks of support.

With this over loading the Life support system is a matter of expending Life Support Supplies at a increased rate. generally is twice the cost per person for the number of people over the ships rated maximum. (rated maximum is double occupancy of installed staterooms).

Note in my games I allow the players to haggle over prices of these supplies

 

[Condottiere]

You can't argue in terms of cost of dry goods and water, unless these are a scarcity, which shouldn't really be the case at a starport.

While you might get sick of ramen over a ten day sojourn, there's also Italian pasta, eggs, the potato, and presumably cheap artificially cultured meats.

Food prices are variable, so it's really the cost of recycling air.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The rules can't cover every starship ever built in charted space. It would be foolish to rule-play that every starship works the same way.

 

[phavoc]

The rules can't cover every starship ever built in charted space. It would be foolish to rule-play that every starship works the same way.

The discussion isn't about specific starships, it's about the rules/guidelines for ALL starships.