State of Traveller, 2011...

[IanBruntlett]

Ian, you have to understand, MANY people don't have an understanding of software. It's best to spell out tech explanations. That being said, I agree with your points regarding the material being in XML format. I still think doing it is OO Base is the best route.

Point taken

I think going for OpenOffice is a good idea because it is:-
1) Free software.
2) Because of that, its likely to exist in one form or another for a long time.
3) Cross platform - works on Windows, Mac and Linux.

 

[simonh]

1. I believe that the OpenOffice (OOo) file formats are a matter of common knowledge.

Your solution is for customers to manualy extract their data from an XML file in notepad.

Doh! Why didn't I think of that?

Simon Hibbs

To coin a word "No".

Quite right, that was foolish of me. Why use notepad when you can write your own custom XML parser.

Being serious for a moment, I concur that if you have to choose a file format, ODF or a variant of it is an excellent way to go for future proofing. I just don't think a spreadsheet is likely to have the kind of usability that a professional product requires.

HGS would be my reference point for a truly usable design tool. It's file format is CSV, dead easy to parse but I don't think it was documented so you wouldn't know what the values were supposed to mean. It does export designs to a very readable text report, or the old LBB Book 5 USP format.

Simon Hibbs

 

[chrisboote]

Lol! Um, no, I'm not. Had you taken your Lotus 1-2-3 worksheets, you could have converted them to Quatro Pro, or Excel, or any other format. Lotus was the defacto standard at the time. Everybody had converters to read it.

Sure, if you got uber fancy in your lookups and everything else you might have some broken links (not everyone does formula's quite the same. They are annoying, but NOT earth-shattering for what needs to be done here).

I'm pretty sure if I wanted to spend the time I could find a program to pull that data out.

What I don't get is if you were sophisticated enough to do all that, how come you can't seem to grasp the concept of moving your work forward to newer versions? It's a pretty basic idea that's been around, for, umm, since they made the first real competitor to Lotus?

I think, probably unwittingly, you have made my point for me
YES, I could have ported my DOS 123 files to Windows, ad YES I could have rewritten all of the macros, and possibly even YES I could then re-port to Excel w1.1, rewrite them again, and then re-re-port to Excel v3 and rewrite once again
And nowadays, I could do some more porting to get them into Open Office and, again, rewrte all the gui macros...
But why? There is a real world real time cost in doing stuff like this and why should I?
And if some games company had to do all that, where is their payback?
$5 per copy sold REALLY wouldn't cover the cost of doing all of that

And while your point is correct about books being usable when there are no computers or electricity around, there are actually probably very few people who that applies to that are Traveller players (the proof would be the sales figures around the world and how many copies of the books are sold to countries where computers and electricity are the norm). And if you will carefully re-read my original posting, you'll note that my request was that the program be added "as part of the book".

So please check your facts first.

I missed that in your original post, but I was referring to your post where you claimed that someone was wrong for saying "a software only solution isn't up to scratch"

Only 8-14% of the world's population has access to a computer, depending upon who defines access
Traveller is a game that transcends cultures, and I want it to be available to people without needing technology that most of them can't afford

I taught eight lads to play in 2004 (when it was raining too hard for them to play football)
By May last year, the Traveller group in Alicedale is now 35, and 5 more who have moved to Grahamstown, taking HAND COPIED versions of the rulebook with them!

Next year, I am taking the Grahamstown boys a complete set of all Mongoose Traveller products (ouch to baggage weight limits, hooray for LBB versions ...) and introducing it and them to the Rhodes university games club
The fact that we can play anywhere with a flat surface and enough light to see the dice is a HUGE selling point to get these guys interested

One of the lads who started in 2004, Bongani, was effectively illiterate, but he loved playing the game so much, that he & his parents got the cash together for him to go back to school to learn to read, just so that he could read the Traveller books*
Now, six years on, I now send him other books a few times a year, as well as taking the latest Traveller books with me every time I go back

His entire world has changed because of a game
A game he could never have experienced if it needed a computer

*OK, not JUST so he could read Traveller, learning to read is of course a great thing in and of itself, but playing a game with me and his friends was the first time he saw that reading could be for fun, not just a chore at school

 

[Dave Chase]

...One of the lads who started in 2004, Bongani, was effectively illiterate, but he loved playing the game so much, that he & his parents got the cash together for him to go back to school to learn to read, just so that he could read the Traveller books*
Now, six years on, I now send him other books a few times a year, as well as taking the latest Traveller books with me every time I go back

His entire world has changed because of a game
A game he could never have experienced if it needed a computer

*OK, not JUST so he could read Traveller, learning to read is of course a great thing in and of itself, but playing a game with me and his friends was the first time he saw that reading could be for fun, not just a chore at school

Slightly off subject.

I saw the same thing with kids who could hardly do math. Yet when playing a game that they loved, which required adding and subtracting random numbers to changing set values, they learned math. (MageKnight)

If an individual has a set reason to learn something because they want to, they will learn more and quicker than if they have to learn it because they are told to.

I think that Science Fiction is one of the great doorways to new technology because lovers of SciFi want to live like they read and some will actually attempt to create that which they need to live that way.

Dave Chase

 

[phavoc]

Yes, it's understandable that its a pain to have to convert your software every few years (though that's not always the case) in order to stay out of the planned obsolesence zone. But that is the byproduct of the computer age.

However, how is that any different than the multiple versions of Traveller that have been produced since Classic Traveller? Lessee, we've got Traveller(1), MegaTraveller(2), Traveller-New Era(3), Marc Miller's Traveller (4), Gurps Traveller (5), T20 Traveller (6), and now Mongoose Traveller (7). That seems to be a lot of change and conversion too.

While I do applaud people who use gaming to help youngsters get more into education and learning, lets be honest and say that this was not and is not the intent of the game. It was never meant to be a educational learning tool. It was meant to be a sci-fi version of D&D. It is, at its core, a game. While it can (and evidently has) been adapted for other uses, lets call a spade a spade, eh?

While books are indeed wonderful, there are things that are far more useful if they are automated. I personally prefer to purchase the books from my local hobby store so that I not only support my gaming community, but I support my local hobby store and encourage him to continue to carry RPG gaming materials. I also personally like having a book in my hands. However, I find it far easier to do "what-if's" using software where I can tinker with the numbers and see where the different trade-offs take me.

I can do the math using pencil, paper and multiplication skills learned in the 5th grade, its simply not a good use of my time (though perhaps for a 5th grader it is - but I'm not in 5th grade anymore). And that's why calculators, spreadsheets and other modeling tools were invented. They are tools that are useful, and while there is no substitute for learning your basic skills so that you are not dependent upon things, I personally happen to like using them so that my free time can be better spent on more useful and enjoyable endeavors, like gaming.

 

[FreeTrav]

Yes, it's understandable that its a pain to have to convert your software every few years (though that's not always the case) in order to stay out of the planned obsolesence zone. But that is the byproduct of the computer age.

And it's an argument against making things depend unnecessarily on software. Which is a good argument against making things so complicated that doing them in software is the only way to make them usable.

However, how is that any different than the multiple versions of Traveller that have been produced since Classic Traveller? Lessee, we've got Traveller(1), MegaTraveller(2), Traveller-New Era(3), Marc Miller's Traveller (4), Gurps Traveller (5), T20 Traveller (6), and now Mongoose Traveller (7). That seems to be a lot of change and conversion too.

Oh, it's very different - if I have the original GDW Little Black Books - or the FFE Big Floppy Black Book Reprints of same - I can play Traveller. I don't NEED anything later. No conversion necessary. If I WANT to mix version, then I will need to do conversions - but there's no mandate. Nobody to tell me "No, you may not play Classic Traveller; you must play T20.". Nobody to tell me "You MUST play in Twilight Sector; you may not play in the Third Imperium.". In short, the paper editions are ALL timeless, once published - as long as SOMEONE has copies, the version of the game lives, and is playable - whether or not I choose to convert to other versions. That's not entirely true of computer code; suppose I had a starship worksheet done in Visicalc for the Apple II? Or Multiplan on CTOS? How am I going to convert it to something usable today?

While I do applaud people who use gaming to help youngsters get more into education and learning, lets be honest and say that this was not and is not the intent of the game. It was never meant to be a educational learning tool. It was meant to be a sci-fi version of D&D. It is, at its core, a game. While it can (and evidently has) been adapted for other uses, lets call a spade a spade, eh?

"Intent" is irrelevant; what's important is that it CAN BE used as described, and HAS BEEN used as described. And both came about, in essence, because it was simple enough, and not dependent on expensive technology, to be useful in the low-tech/low-wealth environment that it was in fact used in.

But even THAT is irrelevant; what is ultimately important is the difference between "playing Traveller" and "playing WITH Traveller". You don't need automation to play Traveller. You do need it to play WITH Traveller. Playing Traveller isn't about punching numbers into a spreadsheet and getting a starship out; that's playing WITH Traveller. Playing Traveller is about what you do after you have the starship - or about what you do to get it. It's about what happens when you roll 2D for 8+. It's about trying to bribe that purple-haired customs agent - or maybe trying to get him <CENSORED-Trying to keep it PG-rated>. Or maybe even discovering that his secret is that SHE is wanted on six worlds ...

While books are indeed wonderful, there are things that are far more useful if they are automated. I personally prefer to purchase the books from my local hobby store so that I not only support my gaming community, but I support my local hobby store and encourage him to continue to carry RPG gaming materials. I also personally like having a book in my hands. However, I find it far easier to do "what-if's" using software where I can tinker with the numbers and see where the different trade-offs take me.

Which is fine; there's nothing wrong with playing WITH Traveller. I do it, too. You could even make the case that Freelance Traveller is simply a massive effort at playing WITH Traveller. But now I can turn your own words above against you - "lets be honest and say that this was not and is not the intent of the game.". It is a game with strong simulationist elements in the "preparation" module, but "It was meant to be a sci-fi version of D&D. It is, at its core, a game. While it can (and evidently has) been adapted for other uses, lets call a spade a spade, eh?".

I can do the math using pencil, paper and multiplication skills learned in the 5th grade, its simply not a good use of my time (though perhaps for a 5th grader it is - but I'm not in 5th grade anymore). And that's why calculators, spreadsheets and other modeling tools were invented. They are tools that are useful, and while there is no substitute for learning your basic skills so that you are not dependent upon things, I personally happen to like using them so that my free time can be better spent on more useful and enjoyable endeavors, like gaming.

If playing WITH Traveller is that important to you, but the drudgework "is simply not a good use of [your] time", then by all means, use calculators, spreadsheets, and other modeling tools. And if they don't exist, do what many other members of the Traveller Community have done in the past - write them yourself. And share them. Or not. Even suggest that someone else write them. But don't get all whiny - which you are very close to doing - when you're told that there are Good Reasons To Not Do So. And they can't be handwaved away; Not Everyone Is Cursed To Live In The Wealthiest Parts Of Western Society. Or Blessed, if you prefer. But I can play Traveller - without benefit of calculator, spreadsheet, or other modeling tools - anywhere from a mansion in San Francisco to a mudhut with a reasonably level floor in Somalia. And it's not noticeably more difficult in the second than in the first.

And I'm glad. Because I like playing Traveller at least as much as I like playing WITH Traveller.

 

[DFW]

And it's an argument against making things depend unnecessarily on software. Which is a good argument against making things so complicated that doing them in software is the only way to make them usable.

For Traveller, THAT train left the station ~32 years ago...

 

[FreeTrav]

And it's an argument against making things depend unnecessarily on software. Which is a good argument against making things so complicated that doing them in software is the only way to make them usable.

For Traveller, THAT train left the station ~32 years ago...

Has it really? Do I really need to know any details about my ship other than "I can get to THERE, THERE, and THERE from HERE in it, and it will take a week to do so."? Remember what I'd said in my rantish post above - Traveller is about what happens when you roll 2D for 8+. That's from the mechanistic view. From the roleplaying view, it's about what you choose to do when you find out that the sexy female customs agent who helped you clear inbound is also the male heir-presumptive to the Marquisate of Queensbury who disappeared three years ago under a cloud concerning the death of his older sister... Or something like that. In short, it's about the adventures, not about the Doing of Math. "Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future", not "Accurate Exercises in Accounting". How much in the way of automation and complexity do I need to have a good adventure?

 

[phavoc]

But don't get all whiny - which you are very close to doing - when you're told that there are Good Reasons To Not Do So.

Um, I'm waiting for the "Good Reasons To Not Do So". Like, WTF kind of logic is that? That's like saying "the abacus is good enough to do math with. There is no Good Reason to Invent a better computing device". That's just dumb logic.

How is automating a part of the game that, as I said, lets you have more time to game instead of doing all the mundane portions of ship design. What do I mean by this? Well, say you are creating a scenario for your players that involves them boarding a large liner, or maybe there is a military action and your PC's are actually playing naval characters and they first have to beat the target into submission... but not too much or else the target blows up. If you want to design the ship for these sorts of things, why yes indeed you can use the tables in the book, a scratch sheet of paper and no calculator and get to where you want to go. But it will take longer. So by using your argument, this is a bad thing? How? And why?

As GM I can draw up any damn ship plans that I want. I have no need to follow the rules as laid out. Therefore why have High Guard? There's no need, right?

And you are missing the other half of the argument. There is a sizable group of people out there who LIKE that sort of thing. To use formula's and design rules to build things. Without these people we never would have had Striker, Striker II, or any of the other myriad of more complicated rules published to allow players to add their own tech and ships to the game.

So to answer your question "Do I really need to know any details about my ship other than 'I can get to THERE, THERE and THERE from HERE in it, and it will take a week to do so." I say YES YOU DO. Or at least YES I DO. I'm pretty sure the same people like me who have purchased the additions to the game agree, or somewhat agree with my statement.

I'm still waiting for a cogent and reasonable explanation AGAINST automation. The fact that a) it's hard, and b) it eventually becomes obsolete is not a reason. It is an argument that has throughout history been shown to be one that has no valid viewpoint. Let's go to the moon? Oh, sorry, that's hard and eventually we'll bypass the moon, so why bother? Let's sail across the ocean to find a new route to India! Oh, sorry, that's hard and eventually we'll fly, so why bother? I could go on, but history has vindicated pretty much everyone who argued against it being hard and eventually becoming obsolete. Ok, not everyone. The French used that same logic and did not build new weapons that were superiod to the Germans prior to being invaded because they were expensive and new ones were already being designed. Why bother building obsolete weapons?

So maybe us "whiny" people need to go sit in the back of the forum so you "true" Traveller players can get to playing the game that we obviously have no idea in how to use to have fun and adventure.

 

[AndrewW]

How is automating a part of the game that, as I said, lets you have more time to game instead of doing all the mundane portions of ship design. What do I mean by this? Well, say you are creating a scenario for your players that involves them boarding a large liner, or maybe there is a military action and your PC's are actually playing naval characters and they first have to beat the target into submission... but not too much or else the target blows up. If you want to design the ship for these sorts of things, why yes indeed you can use the tables in the book, a scratch sheet of paper and no calculator and get to where you want to go. But it will take longer. So by using your argument, this is a bad thing? How? And why?

I don't think anyone is saying automation is a bad thing. Requiring automation on the other hand would be a bad thing and limited to those who where able to use that automation.

But I don't see it being cost effective to put it in as part of the book itself, if a third party would like to build a vehicle designer (for example) that's fine with me.

 

[FreeTrav]

I don't think anyone is saying automation is a bad thing. Requiring automation on the other hand would be a bad thing and limited to those who where able to use that automation.

But I don't see it being cost effective to put it in as part of the book itself, if a third party would like to build a vehicle designer (for example) that's fine with me.

I think I said this in my rant...

 

[chrisboote]

I don't think anyone is saying automation is a bad thing. Requiring automation on the other hand would be a bad thing and limited to those who where able to use that automation.

But I don't see it being cost effective to put it in as part of the book itself, if a third party would like to build a vehicle designer (for example) that's fine with me.

I think I said this in my rant...

Sums the whole topic up for me
'You CAN', not 'you MUST'