Starship Design - Non Streamlined craft

[phavoc]

I don't know how many people read Cherryh's Downbelow universe, but in it the starships all docked at stations, and they all docked head in, with the main lock being located forward to move cargo and personnel onto the station. It made for relatively efficient use of valuable hull space, though all ships pretty much docked along the main axis, which with anti-grav you can do some pretty interesting deck configurations. But they didn't have anti-grav, so spin-based gravity made sense.

So I was thinking that the Traveller universe ships and docking concepts really don't jive with that at all. Hangars take up 300% of ship displacement, which makes sense for some ships. And the lowly free trader can't unload except from the sides, so it would require a hangar, or at least a docking port that it can dock perpendicular (assuming there is no tube to extend). At this point the docking arm concept (but not as written) makes a lot more sense.

So what do you guys think of starship designs that are designed for pure space station to space station traffic that are essentially long tubes. The main cargo loading takes place from the front, with secondary loading areas where appropriate. It would be more like the old-school LST's with the bow doors. This would also mean that you could conceivable have dual-level docking ports, say passengers departing on the upper level while cargo gets transferred via the lower level.

I don't recall if the particular passage was from DownBelow Station, or perhaps Renegade's Honor by William Keith, but there is a scene where the ship has docked and needs to get away and rather than alert the station on what they are going to be doing and disconnecting the docking umbilical they just rip out of the dock, taking the umbilicals with them while creating a breach and dumping a few bad guys into space. It sounds like something Signy Mallory's character would do, but it's been a while since I've touched those books. Anyway, it would make for some very interesting adventures and acts for PC's to do (or have done to them!)

 

[Anonymous]

I'm fine with your idea of the shape of star ports/orbitals but as an aside, who says you have to dock a free trader (or any ship) with a seal against the hull around the cargo doors?

A starship could hold a position in orbit or dock just it's main lock to a space station. Containerized cargo, sealed to a vacuum would be moved to the cargo doors then taken by small tug ships.

The great thing about space is it has a lot of space! Why not use it? Why would a ship have to dock internally? OK, I get it's cool and all but is it necessary? If the ship needs repairs I can see the need to "dry dock" but to unload cargo, passengers and get it's crew to a bar to meet their next patron?

 

[GypsyComet]

Most adventure class merchant ships are built with planetary landing in mind, not station docking. The Marava/Jayhawk is sometimes depicted with huge docking rings around the side cargo locks, so it isn't a huge stretch to assume that some ships are better suited to each scenario.

The big ships are another matter. Most of those never touch ground, and are thus built for orbital operations both alone and with a station.

Cherryh's setting assumes an FTL scheme that requires a limited architectural range for ships that doesn't include streamlining, so every system that matters has a Station. Those that don't matter are forced to use shuttles. You can certainly emulate this in Traveller, but the Third Imperium setting doesn't need to.

 

[Rick]

Not 100% sure on the Human faction ships, but the Hani, Kif and Mahen ships don't have artificial gravity, dock alongside the outer deck of the station (at 90' to direction of rotation), with the access in the lower half of the ship (meaning that 1/2 - 3/4 of the ship is directly alongside the station) and, at least the Pride, had an L-shaped control deck, which meant an aircraft-like cockpit (at 90' to all the other decks) and a small ops section which was used in dock, oriented like all the other decks. Also the Hani ships tended to be more streamlined than other races ships, as the designs were established before they built their homeworld space station, and they are a conservative bunch, mostly. What this means for their design is that you have lots of decks stacked on top of each other, which makes little difference in zero g, but a lot of sense when in dock - it also means that, if you go from 0g-several g acceleration, there are no messy drops when your long corridor becomes a shaft with a long drop.

 

[locarno24]

Most adventure class merchant ships are built with planetary landing in mind, not station docking. The Marava/Jayhawk is sometimes depicted with huge docking rings around the side cargo locks, so it isn't a huge stretch to assume that some ships are better suited to each scenario.

The big ships are another matter. Most of those never touch ground, and are thus built for orbital operations both alone and with a station.

Cherryh's setting assumes an FTL scheme that requires a limited architectural range for ships that doesn't include streamlining, so every system that matters has a Station. Those that don't matter are forced to use shuttles. You can certainly emulate this in Traveller, but the Third Imperium setting doesn't need to.

Indeed. The capital-size freighter probably never docks either; just 'moor' at stationkeeping whilst the big containers under the hull are loaded or off-loaded. There's a big 'container park' of empty cargo containers in one of the early missions of Secrets of the Ancients, and that plus tug-type shuttles can probably handle the loading/off-loading quite efficiently.

 

[sideranautae]

I'm fine with your idea of the shape of star ports/orbitals but as an aside, who says you have to dock a free trader (or any ship) with a seal against the hull around the cargo doors?

A starship could hold a position in orbit or dock just it's main lock to a space station. Containerized cargo, sealed to a vacuum would be moved to the cargo doors then taken by small tug ships.

The great thing about space is it has a lot of space! Why not use it? Why would a ship have to dock internally? OK, I get it's cool and all but is it necessary? If the ship needs repairs I can see the need to "dry dock" but to unload cargo, passengers and get it's crew to a bar to meet their next patron?

This. People tend to use too many ground based and 20-21st century analogies when playing Traveller.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

IMTU the "standard" hull design is non-streamlined, so I make use of Highports a lot. Even with artificial gravity, it is easier (cheaper) to just go orbit to orbit with the big containers. Shuttles and smaller ships worry about taking the stuff into the Atmo.

Very few of the ship layouts from Traveller (any edition) really work for this concept. I use a lot more "Tail Sitters" like the Mercenary Cruiser and Azhanti.

Yes, my TU was strongly influenced by CJ Cherryh and even 2300.

 

[Reynard]

Since in OTU the trade operations are 'standard' to the Imperium, I notice there is little standardization. You would think ships and stations would have more compatibility as you see in worldwide naval shipping. Container vessels with modular containers easily swapped out at any station or cargo door access for a regular extension portal. Ships seem to normally have to land in sealable hangars to load and unload as if planetside.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Yep, the OTU missed another one.

IMTU that is exactly how it is done. External Containers in standard sizes with standard fittings and Internal Crates that require an atmosphere, also in standard sizes and shapes for easy loading/unloading.

If trade is the lifeblood of an Interstellar society, the Megacorporations are going to want to maximize profits and standardization helps with that. At worst, each Megacorporation would have its own standard and since they control almost all the trade, those would be used, even for the little packages used by Tramp Traders.

 

[sideranautae]

Since in OTU the trade operations are 'standard' to the Imperium, I notice there is little standardization. You would think ships and stations would have more compatibility as you see in worldwide naval shipping. Container vessels with modular containers easily swapped out at any station or cargo door access for a regular extension portal. Ships seem to normally have to land in sealable hangars to load and unload as if planetside.

That's how I do it. Of course the containers are all vacc rated as they will get transferred in that environment at times.

 

[phavoc]

Yep, the OTU missed another one.

IMTU that is exactly how it is done. External Containers in standard sizes with standard fittings and Internal Crates that require an atmosphere, also in standard sizes and shapes for easy loading/unloading.

If trade is the lifeblood of an Interstellar society, the Megacorporations are going to want to maximize profits and standardization helps with that. At worst, each Megacorporation would have its own standard and since they control almost all the trade, those would be used, even for the little packages used by Tramp Traders.

I think this is more a reflection of the time when Traveller was conceived. While containerization existed, it wasn't THE primary way that cargo was transported across the world. Now of course the industry model has proven how efficient containerization is that it's the defacto standard for transporting everything but bulk cargo's. The 'tramp' freighter has morphed into a small container ship.

I would suspect this would be taken forth into the 'verse as well. Loose, break-bulk cargo would certainly still exist, especially in the small tramp freighters such as a Free Trader, or even a Type R merchant. But even they would have some containers, perhaps in the 2 - 5 Dton capacity. The larger ships that transport the true cargo of the Imperium would be far larger and probably carry standard 10-12Dton sized ones. Why? For the same reasons we have semi's on the road today. Once the container got to the starport it still needs to get to it's final destination, meaning it will have to be transported by road, rail, or grav. And a 10-12Dton container is a reasonably sized way to do so.

Since in OTU the trade operations are 'standard' to the Imperium, I notice there is little standardization. You would think ships and stations would have more compatibility as you see in worldwide naval shipping. Container vessels with modular containers easily swapped out at any station or cargo door access for a regular extension portal. Ships seem to normally have to land in sealable hangars to load and unload as if planetside.

That's how I do it. Of course the containers are all vacc rated as they will get transferred in that environment at times.

I assume there are two-types of containers - space rated and non-space rated. The space-rated ones are capable of being left in vacuum or even being attached outside a ship and holding atmosphere. The non-vacuum ones aren't designed to hold atmosphere. Using today's comparisons, you have sea-going rated containers, and then you have every other container. Sea-going rated containers are much stronger and can specifically survive sea conditions. A regular container wouldn't survive the environment. There's also the idea that making all containers be vacuum-proof would drastically increase costs per unit. Space will always remain dangerous, so making sure a container can hold an atmosphere increases both it's initial build cost but also the cost of maintenance. They would need to be pressure-tested each time they were loaded to protect the cargo (assuming it would be damaged by a vacuum), much like putting on a spacesuit requires a check to ensure you don't lose atmosphere.

 

[sideranautae]

I assume there are two-types of containers - space rated and non-space rated.

Like containers today. Rain rated and non-rain rated. :lol:

Seriously though. When I say "containers" I'm talking the standard shipping containers that are used throughout the world for shipping from country to country.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I use the 30-ton Module as the smallest Space-Rated Container IMTU.

I then have a 100, 500 and 1,000 ton Container as well.

When I "convert" a standard design for my setting, if there is 30-tons of cargo space, then it gets an external Container instead, or multiples of them depending on the size.

Internal Crates come in 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1, 2, 5, 10, and 20 tons. (0.1 tons is about 1 cubic metre, or the size of a U-Haul Medium Box in the US).

 

[Anonymous]

When I "convert" a standard design for my setting, if there is 30-tons of cargo space, then it gets an external Container instead, or multiples of them depending on the size.

Have you drawn up deck plans for your conversions? Any plans to share or publish?

 

[AndrewW]

2300AD has some standard size cargo containers.

 

[pasuuli]

Since in OTU the trade operations are 'standard' to the Imperium, I notice there is little standardization. You would think ships and stations would have more compatibility as you see in worldwide naval shipping. Container vessels with modular containers easily swapped out at any station or cargo door access for a regular extension portal. Ships seem to normally have to land in sealable hangars to load and unload as if planetside.

Surely, standard cargo containers were figured out for Traveller, at least by the DGP period in the 80s. And you can bet that any 100,000 ton cargoliner is going to be a LASH setup...

As far as small starships go: the setting suggests a variety of starport docking schemes, for the sake of color. Players are just as likely to land in an orbital hangar, or attach via docking tube, or land in a surface bunker, or land on an elevated pad, or land in any conceivable manner.

 

[phavoc]

I assume there are two-types of containers - space rated and non-space rated.

Like containers today. Rain rated and non-rain rated. :lol:

Seriously though. When I say "containers" I'm talking the standard shipping containers that are used throughout the world for shipping from country to country.

I think you are glossing over the "other" standard container. I'm a big rail fan so I pay lots of attention to rail traffic, especially container trains. There are entire trains made up of nothing but JB Hunt or Schneider containers, and each of those containers is non-sea rated.

For Traveller I would see the cargo transport environment working the same way. Vacuum-rated containers have their place, but would be overly expensive if you were transporting cargo inside a hold and you used the container to simply contain the cargo and not protect it from the harshness of space. Plus once you got in atmosphere there would be no need for a vacuum-rated container (same as we have today with sea-rated containers).

Since in OTU the trade operations are 'standard' to the Imperium, I notice there is little standardization. You would think ships and stations would have more compatibility as you see in worldwide naval shipping. Container vessels with modular containers easily swapped out at any station or cargo door access for a regular extension portal. Ships seem to normally have to land in sealable hangars to load and unload as if planetside.

Surely, standard cargo containers were figured out for Traveller, at least by the DGP period in the 80s. And you can bet that any 100,000 ton cargoliner is going to be a LASH setup...

As far as small starships go: the setting suggests a variety of starport docking schemes, for the sake of color. Players are just as likely to land in an orbital hangar, or attach via docking tube, or land in a surface bunker, or land on an elevated pad, or land in any conceivable manner.

The LASH concept didn't work out so well here on Earth. The same issues faced the cargo community, and I would suspect that some of the same things would face space-going cargo ships as well. Would there be some market for it? Yes, probably, on large-enough routes it could make sense. Assembling your LASH pod on the ground, then taking it up to orbit via a lighter and out to the 100D limit for the next scheduled arrival of your transport would make for very short turn-arounds to the ship (potentially just a few hours), so you'd get better utilization rates out of your hulls.

But that would only work for specific world pairs, and perhaps a few stations. And if you don't have the infrastructure necessary, you still need to take the containers to their trans-load destination. In either case it's an interesting argument and one we'll not see answered anytime soon - that is unless Grandfather pops out and pulls us into the future. :lol:

 

[sideranautae]

The LASH concept didn't work out so well here on Earth.

Yes, given the specific and very limited situations reasons why LASH was developed in the first place on Earth, it isn't really workable for interstellar trade in the Traveller universe. The containers would probably be between 3-6 tons like we have here for intercontinental cargo. Much larger and you have to break them open and redistribute contents on receiving planet for final destination.

 

[Rick]

Hmm I was wondering why nobody had considered a jump tender with cargo racks operating between just a few systems. small craft load and unload at each end and it just jumps between the systems delivering the cargo.

 

[sideranautae]

Hmm I was wondering why nobody had considered a jump tender with cargo racks operating between just a few systems. small craft load and unload at each end and it just jumps between the systems delivering the cargo.

You would see that closer to the Core of the 3I. Out on the frontier there are far fewer places where it would be economically viable. In those few places where it would be viable, you probably would see something like.