Starfury question

[Justicar]

Greg, thanks for taking the time to answer my question and set me straight.

Now I just have to decide two things: First, whether I'd rather have a Warlock or a Poseidon for my flagship. I already have the Poseidon + Fighter box set (in a trade for minis I was never going to use). Second, and more importantly, whether I actually want to get into this game. Sorry, but some of the rules (like boresight) really bother me, enough that I see it making the game Not Fun.

 

[eldiablito]

Here is some fuel to throw on the fire... I've read several arguments for and against trading one set of fighters for another. Here is a thematic puzzle I'm looking over; Say that someone wanted to build an era appropriate version of the Early Earth Alliance fleet. That fleet would be specifically based around the Earth-Minbari War and not the earlier, Dilgar wars. Wouldn't it be appropriate if all the fighters were the better, Aurora fighters and not the lesser Nova class fighters? Even if the fleet had some Nova capital ships, shouldn't they be entitled to get some Auroras too?

 

[Ripple]

I really hate the ISD argument as it doesn't address the power issues at all, doesn't address game balance in tourney or random pick ups. I suppose if you play this like a historical wargame you could argue that some races are supposed to have inherent advantages at specific dates, but we don't have that kind of time line to go on, and it generally just adds to the arguments.

Ripple

 

[Greg Smith]

Greg, thanks for taking the time to answer my question and set me straight.

No problem.

Now I just have to decide two things: First, whether I'd rather have a Warlock or a Poseidon for my flagship. Second, and more importantly, whether I actually want to get into this game.

Personally, I would decide them in the other order. It won't matter what your flagship is, if you aren't planning to play the game.

Sorry, but some of the rules (like boresight) really bother me, enough that I see it making the game Not Fun.

Once you've played a game or two, boresight won't bother you much at all. It sounds like you;ve dipped your toe in the ACTA water already, so jump on in - you'll love it.

 

[Justicar]

It depends. With the Rule As Written I really don't like it and the only fleet I'm actually interested in has several of the things. Indeed, I had to change the fleet composition just to add more ships without BS (no pun intended) just so I'd have a chance during maneuvering, and quite frankly I think that's a bad game mechanic (and is a similar reason to why I stopped playing Battletech -- they let bookkeeping become design constraints). There are a lot of threads in this forum about "fixing" the BS problem, so it is clearly an issue. Some of the more gentlemanly ones I think would work quite nicely, but in the absence of an official "yes, that's what we meant" then that can't be relied upon. One could make the argument about a player's sportsmanship for taking a hard-line stance, but in campaign and especially tournament play there's really no choice but to follow the rules as written. You simply cannot cherrypick what you like and don't like and maintain any semblance of fairness.

And that's just one issue. I personally despise the idea of "initiative" in a space combat game because it just doesn't make any sense. In an infantry game where guys are a couple hundred yards apart and turns are just a few seconds then yes, snap decisions are important. In a game where the action is taking place kilometers (or 100s or 1000s or...), then no, it has no place on the tabletop. There are other, better ways to resolve turn order than this 50-year old mechanic.

And that's really the problem: The game has potential (the first time I saw the Beam mechanic's additional to hit dice for each already rolled hit the first thing that went through my mind was "Cool, Wrath of Khan!"), but it also has the potential to seriously irritate me, and dropping $160 (fleet box, both rule books) is a bit of a gamble.

So while I appreciate the fighter upgrade clarification, you'll have to excuse me if I don't jump at the "jump on in - you'll love it" advice.

 

[Shadow Queen]

My Nova, Omega and warlock are loaded out with thunderbolts.

My Avenger 50% Starfurys 50% Thunderbolts

 

[eldiablito]

I really hate the ISD argument as it doesn't address the power issues at all, doesn't address game balance in tourney or random pick ups. I suppose if you play this like a historical wargame you could argue that some races are supposed to have inherent advantages at specific dates, but we don't have that kind of time line to go on, and it generally just adds to the arguments.

I totally buy into this discussion. As a pseudo-historical wargame, there are many fans who would prefer to play a game that follows the timeline of the show. At the same time, most people play a-historical scenarios (ie. EA crusade era versus Dilgar is very common for my LGS), and the game requires a decent level of game balance between the early, dawn of the 3rd age and crusade fleets.

Now, I do not have much experience with early age EA fleets, but it strikes me that this discussion often revolves around sub-quality ships that are even worse to more contemporary fleets.

The best example of the lack of consideration is the Nova class Dreadnought. This ship is identical to the 3rd age version except for some vital differences: AD on every arc and the quality (but not quantity) of fighters. In both cases, the dawn of the 3rd age has a significant advantage; Enough so where an early age versus 3rd age face-off with numerous Novas on either side will significantly favor the later era.

Now, if we want to discuss this as a pseudo-historical or technology issue then I'm in agreement, the later-age, Nova class SHOULD be better as it was upgraded since it's inception. Unfortunately, THAT type of argument is inherently an ISD topic. IOW, the game was never designed with these sort of match-ups; only like time frame, versus like time frame.

Likewise, if we want to discuss this as a game balance issue, then it would seem to make sense that the Nova should be balanced between ages. If the Dawn of the 3rd age Nova has a few more AD on each arc, then so should it's older version. Likewise, if one can field Aurora class fighters, then why shouldn't both?

...Just food for thought...

 

[Greg Smith]

With the Rule As Written I really don't like it and the only fleet I'm actually interested in has several of the things.

And that's just one issue. I personally despise the idea of "initiative" in a space combat game because it just doesn't make any sense.

It sounds like there are a couple of big things that you dislike. ACTA has very simple game mechanics, which is part of the appeal - you spend less time thinking about rules, plotting vector movement or writting simultaneous orders and so more on tactics and actually moving and shooting your ships. However, this simplicity can mean that certain rules are a little too abstract, which isn't to everyone's taste (weapon arcs and boresights are a prime example).

So while I appreciate the fighter upgrade clarification, you'll have to excuse me if I don't jump at the "jump on in - you'll love it" advice.

No problem.

 

[Court Jester]

The Early Years Nova may have less AD but they are AP/DD instead of just TL...

 

[Either/Or]

Though I have only used the 3rd age nova (and once at that), twin linked on its own is next to useless if you are shooting high armored ships. with ap/dd you can use your scout to give you rerolls and do massive damage even if the dice are less. seems kinda silly to me that the ap/dd is the early version.

 

[Goldritter]

Both Novas have the same range fpr the weapons and are neary identical.
But the later have more AD and the TL Perk, so it will have more hits.

With 14 ADs ca. 2 will hit against a Hull 6 Ship. Then you can reroll 12 ADs and so score another 2 hits. (All with quick and dirty probability math. OK ?)
So you aill have on average 4 Hits with the 3rd Age Nova.

The Early Age Nova has only 8 ADs with AD,DD so you will get on average 1 Hit (or in best case 2) against a Hull 6 Ship.

Now you have 4 against 1(2) hits.

Now the Early Age Nova has DD so it can make between 1-4 Damage. And the chance for a crit is realy low.
The 3rd Age Nove can make between 0-4 Damage but the chance for a crit is higher (because you have more as double hits as with the older Nova).

If you take lower Hulls the difference between the number of Hits will become grater.
So I think it is an upgrade for the Nova.

The TL Perk is good, and you don´t need to buy/dispache a scout to get your rerolls.
But, like aother things in a Game, depents of how lucky you are with you dicerolls nad what your style of playing is .

 

[Taran]

The Early Age Nova has only 8 ADs with AD,DD so you will get on average 1 Hit (or in best case 2) against a Hull 6 Ship.

See, I get a likely 3 hits and a reliable 2 from the Early Years. 33% chance on each die roll for a hit against Hull 6.
Then toss in the Scout reroll, and you are rolling those other 5 or 6 dice again for a likely 2 more hits. 4-5 hits DD beats the stuffing out of 4 hits TL.

 

[Goldritter]

The Early Age Nova has only 8 ADs with AD,DD so you will get on average 1 Hit (or in best case 2) against a Hull 6 Ship.

See, I get a likely 3 hits and a reliable 2 from the Early Years. 33% chance on each die roll for a hit against Hull 6.
Then toss in the Scout reroll, and you are rolling those other 5 or 6 dice again for a likely 2 more hits. 4-5 hits DD beats the stuffing out of 4 hits TL.

The disadvantage is, that you pay for the scout, and so have one Raid point less for another Ship. Or you use the Scout to get the Reroll and so it can´t be used to lower Stealth.

Then with 14 AD TL you can better split your fire, which gives the 3rd Age Nova more choices. And you can use the 3rd Age Nova to attack Fighters with a good chance of success which the Early Age Nova have Problems.

So the need of Fighters to Defend the 3rd Age Nova is less, and the Fighters can be used for more offensive purposes.

Then the 3rd Age EA Fleet has a better Initiative (+1 if I´m correct) which you must count in too.

But the biggest plus for the 3rd Age Nova is that you have more options as with the Early Age, and don´t need the Scout to enhance it´s performance.

And the reroll of the Scout is only for one Weaponssystem on a Ship and only for one target.
So the 3rd Age Nova can be put into the middle of an enemy fleet, and get the Reroll against any enemy target. And does on average more Damage to the enemy Fleet.

 

[victor romeo]

Then with 14 AD TL you can better split your fire, which gives the 3rd Age Nova more choices. And you can use the 3rd Age Nova to attack Fighters with a good chance of success which the Early Age Nova have Problems.

So the need of Fighters to Defend the 3rd Age Nova is less, and the Fighters can be used for more offensive purposes.

Then the 3rd Age EA Fleet has a better Initiative (+1 if I´m correct) which you must count in too.

But the biggest plus for the 3rd Age Nova is that you have more options as with the Early Age, and don´t need the Scout to enhance it´s performance.

And the reroll of the Scout is only for one Weaponssystem on a Ship and only for one target.
So the 3rd Age Nova can be put into the middle of an enemy fleet, and get the Reroll against any enemy target. And does on average more Damage to the enemy Fleet.

This all comes down to the 'are the fleets balanced acros power levels' question. The Early EA fleet has a lot more options at Skirmish and Patrol levels but tapers off when you get to the higher side of the tech. bracket.
A good example is the Hyperion; the basic Early EA Hyperion is totally outclassed by its 3rd age counterpart. Not only does the 3rd Age Hyperion get better fighters and weapon range it also has an extra weapon system in the front arc. However the Early fleet has access to Hyperion Missile Cruisers and Command Cruisers at Raid level and the Rail Cruiser at Skirmish level, all of which do a better job than anything 3rd age fleets can put out to do their role.

Of course don't ever try doing a comparisson of an Omega and an Orestes Battleship. :shock:

 

[Court Jester]

8 AD with AP/DD gets an average of more than 1 hit against hull 6. More like 2-3 hits which makes it better than the 14 AD with TL.

 

[Ripple]

It's not just Scout that can staple on the Twin-Linked you missing, CAF can do that as well. And while the chance of a crit is lower, the damage done by the crit is higher. As for the fighter thing... you have AF dice for that and no good bomber fighter at early years, so superiority shouldn't be an issue.

Using the initiative bonus or increased fighter selection as a balance point is tough, but at least valid.

Hull 4 - 14 AD TL = 11 hits 2 crits = 15 damage
8 AD DD = 4 hits 1ish crit = 8-12 damage
8 AD DD CAF/Redirected = 6 hits 1 crit = 16 damage

Hull 5 - 14 AD TL = 8 hits 2ish crit = 10-12 damage
8 AD DD = 3 hits 1ish crit = 6-10ish damage
8 AD DD CAF/Redirected = 4 hits 1ish crit = 8-12 damage

Hull 6 - 14 AD TL = 5 hits 1ish crit = 5-7 damage
8 AD DD = 1-2 hits 1ish crit = 2-8 damage
8 AD DD CAF/Redirected = 2-3 hits 1ish crit = 4-12 damage

For early EA its a Skirmish scout with long range turreted missiles and decent beam, so not a real loss in firepower.

Just saying, the early EA can get a benefit out of its scout where as the 3rd age one cannot.

On the big crits (assumed a 2 point crit above) you can pop smaller ships over the threshold much easier with a Early Nova. I fly Abbai a lot with the similar weapons and the issue is not the damage, but how fast you can get a ship to a threshold so it matters.

That said the 3rd age ship is better vs the ever present interceptors.

Ripple

 

[Court Jester]

Its not just DD... those Heavy Plasma Cannon are AP as well...

 

[Ripple]

Teach me to sleep before i post then won't it....=p

My intention was to point out that the ability to caf and or redirect really made a difference.... think i got it across in a bad way. The fact that the ship is close without the redirect and can be magnified is a big deal. Races like the Abbai and largely the Drazi which cannot maginify their firepower are often at a disadvantage realitive to the non-beamy/twin linked due to well thought out maneuvers don't add anything too them. If there was a special order for DD (or other power multiplier) then it would work out.

Ripple