Standardization??

Astrocreep

Mongoose
So with the release of the new rules and all the buzz about everyone putting things together in their favorite scales, has anyone give any thought to how much trouble this is going to be?

I for one work in 28mm and I'm sure not to be alone. How is everyone going to play together if Joe-Bob has 20mm while I field my 28's? That will throw measurements off as well as looking really crappy on the game table.. No standardization means no consistency of scale.

What about tournaments? The person playing 28mm will be thrown into LOS alot easier than the smaller figure. If that's the case I'm breaking out my 10mm...

Now before I get blasted, realize that I love the game, otherwise I would have sold everything by now. I am just seeing some big issues in community play down the road without any standards..
 
The tournament announcements I've seen so far have said what scale to bring. But as far as measurements, it's all the same since it's measured from the center point. (Yes you are right mixing scales will make some awkward situations. Also the center-point rule breaks if you go too large. A 1:1 scale tiger can't shoot past it's own hull if you measure from the center point. :))

The reason it's not standardized is so people can play with the huge variety of minis out there. If you're bringing different people together and you're not sure, just pick one. I'm guessing 1/72 and 28mm are the most popular.
 
While I see your point, I hate to be excluded because I didn't invest in a scale that is not being used for a tournament..
 
Yup. For our stuff we've said "Helmet to helmet, cupola to cupola" and it's worked fairly well for us. But most folks bring 1/72 (cheap), 28mm (traditional these days), or 1/35 (because they have Tamiya stuff).
 
im a fan of the old mongoose scale, but for waw and slowly for modern im using 1/72... its a darn sight cheaper that way.
 
PIcking a standard scale means plenty of people that already have sizable armies wont buy or play the game, since they dont want to buy a new army, just because some dimwits out there dont play in 15mm or 1/71 ;)
 
The problem with 28mm moderns is that there are hardly any vehicle models that fit the scale. I would only go back to 28mm moderns if and when (but mostly IF probably) Mongoose ever does Evo miniatures again complete with appropiratly scaled vehicles to support them. The only way to "standardize" Evo is if Mongoose comes out with it's own standard models.
 
Armchair_Marine said:
The problem with 28mm moderns is that there are hardly any vehicle models that fit the scale. I would only go back to 28mm moderns if and when (but mostly IF probably) Mongoose ever does Evo miniatures again complete with appropiratly scaled vehicles to support them. The only way to "standardize" Evo is if Mongoose comes out with it's own standard models.

QFT!! Well Said AM, well said.

This is definitely a problem as a demo person. If I hold a tournament, I'll have some avid FoW players want to use their 15mm, I'll have some old-school Evo players with 28mm, and I'll have most of the newer folks to wargaming bringing 1/72 right in the middle.

The LOS issues for the differing scales would be a major source of contention, and any passersby would just laugh and make fun of the whole thing.

My community is large enough to have several players, but far too small to have enough in the same scale to rotate tourneys and get a good turn-out. And it would definitely cause hurt feelings to exclude scale "x" because of it.

I know the "We're not going with a standard scale" issue is a meant to get more players interested who already have armies, but in actual practice it is actually hindering my ability to grow this game in my city, rather than helping it. This has been the single biggest, "Nah, I'm not interested because..." reason I've been given when asking if folks wanted to give it a try.

The second biggest reason is a lack of minis from the publisher themselves. This is especially a big issue to the FoW camp, as excellent minis from the publisher is what they are accustomed to.

Here's to hoping mini production in 2009 will allow MGP to remove both of these obstacles in the future, as this game really has the teeth to do well here when these issues are cleared up.

My two-cents and experience in trying to sell this game locally, FWIW. ;)
 
There is nothing in this debate that isn't a potential issue for the publishers of any set of rules. DBA - do I use 15mm, 20mm plastics or 28mm? General Quarters - doI use 1/2400, 1/3000 or 1/6000 minis? Fire and Fury - do I use 6mm, 15mm or 20mm figures? Fox Two - do I use 1/300 or 1/600 minis? The concern shown by the authors / publishers of these and many, many other rule sets over the scales used by their customers should be a pointer to the solution here.
 
as this game really has the teeth to do well here

actually, (and here I interject my $0.02) what might serve the cause of WaW much better than local demos and tourneys (which, although they are sterling efforts, by definition only reach out to a limited number of people) would be the writing of high quality articles covering scnearios, OOBs, alternative backgrounds, etc. for the "glossy" wargaming press, which would reach thousands (as well as earning their authors some dosh for new models :) ) many of the more sucessful sets in recent years have benefitted greatly from having articles published for them in Wargames Illustrated, Miniature Wargames, Battlegames and the like. The Society of Twentieth Century Wargamers journal would also be a good target, given the membership ought to be "target" for these rules. from my own experience I know that even one article covering a niche subject prompts purchases. And from MGP's view its effectively free advertising in an international forum.
 
There would be little point to standardizing the scale of the game. People collect and play with all sorts of scales and the rules work just fine whichever scale you choose. Standardizing the scale of the game wouldn't make a difference, anyway, you play with what you want.

Trying to force players to a particular scale will just chase them away.
 
Shadow4ce said:
This is definitely a problem as a demo person. If I hold a tournament, I'll have some avid FoW players want to use their 15mm, I'll have some old-school Evo players with 28mm, and I'll have most of the newer folks to wargaming bringing 1/72 right in the middle.

You're mixing eras with this example. FoW is strictly WWII. The manufacturer (a minis producer who publishes rules) doesn't manufacture any other era yet.

While I appreciate the difficulty you are having I don't think MGP producing models is going to get it done. I've got the bulk of my American force in 1/72 scale, why would I buy MGP's minis at a different scale? I'd much rather have a second army (in the same scale) that is a suitable opponent to the Americans.

Further, saying "not without our miniatures" to tournament players is not going to go over very well. Much of the GW criticism / fatigue and much of the transition from GW to FoW that I see can be attributed to this general "you hafta play with my toys" attitude.

If MGP produces miniatures, that scale will become the default for sponsored tournaments. I now have two choices, I can either buy MGP minis (or something in the same scale), or I can forego the tournament. Guess which one I'm going to do? I'm not the only one who would forego the tournament, either.

As always, it becomes the responsibility of the tourney judge to make clear what should happen if someone uses a non-standard scale.
 
wkehrman said:
You're mixing eras with this example. FoW is strictly WWII.

I totally realize I was mixing eras. I was using an example of what types of players in my area have what scales.

As far as other companies' issues go, I fail to see how players would be chased away by scale standardization. I sure don't see GW or Privateer Press' doors closing in the foreseeable future, do you? Don't get me wrong, I've heard complaints ad nauseum about a certain mini company from folks who have left their game system for others, but have yet to hear one single complaint reference the scale used. It has always been due to new items making your older models and books obsolete every few years or so.

(Unfortunately, just like my original Battlefield: Evolution models which match up to no other scale, and are no longer being produced with no new models to use. Food for thought, and I understand not an intended outcome, but still they sit collecting dust on my shelf).

As far as the "Come one, come all, scale doesn't matter" approach, it just smacks too much like a, "My name is whatever you want it to be big boy" sales pitch.

Having a "recommended" scale will never stop folks from using their own if they still want to play the rules, but do not have nor wish to purchase another line of models in the "official" scale.

To summarize, my biggest concern, and point of contention is this....

Anyone viewing an officially sanctioned event where the scales are hodge-podge, would laugh and say "Wow, those models are so disorganized, probably has rules to match."

There is a reason the successful miniature companies, GW (love em or hate em, they move product), Privateer Press, and Battlefront push having painted, "official cast" minis at sponsored events...

It looks good and represents the company well.

Sad fact is this my friends: People are attracted by eye-candy. If the eye-candy is not there, they will not stick around long enough to find out the rules are really a choice-cut steak.

Standardized scale would keep passersby from walking off chuckling at the unorganized confusing mess the game must be. If the models on the table look disorganized, then how can the rules be organized? If the rules are not organized, then how can the Rep be organized? If the Rep is not organized, then the store must not be either. I think I'll take my money elsewhere. Now we have an actual economic and industrial impact. All because a potential new player was turned off before they even gave it a try.

Just a hypothesis based upon several years of working in a field where my ability to read peoples' body-language means the difference between life and death. I've watched too many people stop to look at the cool models and terrain and move on, (usually before I have a chance to explain why), when they see the models do not match each other. 8)

I'm not saying we have to standardize on a single manufacturer, just a scale for cripes sake. We could still allow for variations by putting scale conversion PDFs on here for folks who wish to run events in alternate scales, just make a decision on a standard for "officially sanctioned" events so as not to cause people to avoid even trying the game.
 
"Anyone viewing an officially sanctioned event where the scales are hodge-podge, would laugh and say "Wow, those models are so disorganized, probably has rules to match.""

I don't think I've ever seen an event at a show or in a wargames shop where models of different scales have been used (barring cases where it is absolutely necessary or enhances the game for scale efefcts, e.g. 1/700 aircraft with 1/3000 ships). I've seen many, many competition games at shows and other places where it would theoretically be possible for someone to turn up with, say, 15mm figures when everyone else is using 25mm, but in those cases the organisers have the nouse to announce what scale is in use.

Now, if MGP were in the business of manufactiring their own miniatures line to accompany the rules it would be entirely right and proper to write the rules in such a way as to strongly encourage (or even force) their chosen scale to be used. But in the case of WaW, where they don't and almost certainly never will given the multitudes of excellent figures and vehicles already avalaible, driving at one scale will (and I say this from personal experience) drive potential users away and over to other sets. How many 20mm or 25mm wargamers use Flames of War? Look at the postings on TMP - when a new set of rules is discussed one of the "FAQs" is "I have figures in XX scale - can I use them with the rules?" I have extensive collections of 15mm figures in a range of periods. I'm a bit of a wargames tart when it comes to rules, often picking up and tryinga new set to see if it has merit over what I use already (although I'm often disappointed, I still do it). But if the rules are written in such a way as to mean I can't use my figures with them, or if the impression is the same, then I'l pass them by. My interest in WaW comes from being able to use it with 15mm with no mods necessary (for a start, IMHO, the proportions between the figures, movement and ranges looks much better than 25/28mm). f it was 28mmor nothing I'd pass.

Nor will events at the average FLGS really make any difference to the popularity and success of the rules. Whilst extremely good, IMHO, at fostering local support, in the grand scheme of things they only touch a very, very small proportion of the customer base (ugh! management speak!). If you want to sell rules then (a) get them well placed on the internet and in glossy wargames mags with articles and scenarios that double as adverts, have people stage visually impressive demo and parti games at shows and conventions, and keep doing it. And then do it some more!

Apologies if the above is a rambling and poorly structured "blurtkak" but I'm rushing to catch a ferry!
 
i agree with every one lol.

see i had to choose a scale for WAW, these where how i made the desision:

1. cost ? for my desired type of army.
2. do i whant small units of awsome looking infantry for a skirmish (28mm)
3. do i whant lost of tanks vehicles and infantry storming the table (20mm) (1/72)

now i love tanks and i love the russian swarm of infantry and i love armoured cars so 1:72 was the perfect scale for me.

if i wished to play small 500 point games max i would of probably gone 28mm so i could personalise my army and lavish some time on some charactifal minatures...

for a tourny at say 2k points i would of though the majority would take 1/72 for a tourny of 1000 point id recon on forces at around 28mm scale to grab them points for painting and stuff.....

as for unfairness in scales in combat, im not so sure ok so you cant see guy (1/72) behind wall due to his size but then he also cant see or shoot you back as he is a bit on the short side...

i like my (1/72) scale yes the infantry dont look as flash but by god i can field alot of them and armour and that looks amazing on the table in a differnt way to say a 28mm force........

but yes they do look awkward and anoying when fighting each other. i suggest tourneys give a standard guide scale of 1/72 for forces over 2k and a guid scale of 28mm for tournies at 1500 points and bellow... but as a guide scale..

just an idea,
 
Shadow4ce said:
wkehrman said:
You're mixing eras with this example. FoW is strictly WWII.

I totally realize I was mixing eras. I was using an example of what types of players in my area have what scales.

As far as other companies' issues go, I fail to see how players would be chased away by scale standardization.

If standardization happens, it's after the fact. Enough time has passed (just look at the threads here) that many have chosen a scale and begun working, I've built and painted an Abrams, a Bradley and a HMMWV. I've built a second Bradley and have numbers 3 and 4 in my posession. I have an Apache and I've found a decent pair of A-10s. I've based and primered all of my soldiers. All of this is in 20mm/1:72 scale. Should Mongoose decide to standardize the scale at, say 28mm/1:50 scale, AND say this is the scale for tournaments, I'm given two choices: change scales or don't play in the tournament. Am I missing a third option? If I change scales I have to shell out at least another $100 or so, probably more, for the bigger stuff. Why am I going to do that? Since I lack the liquidity to buy a duplicate army in a larger scale, I'm left with the don't play in the tournament option--as are any others who chose 20mm over 28mm.

Having a "recommended" scale will never stop folks from using their own if they still want to play the rules, but do not have nor wish to purchase another line of models in the "official" scale.

To summarize, my biggest concern, and point of contention is this....

Anyone viewing an officially sanctioned event where the scales are hodge-podge, would laugh and say "Wow, those models are so disorganized, probably has rules to match."

Ok, so people won't be prevented from using whatever scale they want, but they will be prevented from playing in officially sanctioned events. I'm not really sure I get it, but, whatever.

WizKids made this mistake about five years ago. They let folks get heavily invested in something, then you change it up on them and expect growth. They were more extreme as they changed the entire game, but the end result is the same, people were unwilling to pay to convert.

There is a reason the successful miniature companies, GW (love em or hate em, they move product), Privateer Press, and Battlefront push having painted, "official cast" minis at sponsored events...

It looks good and represents the company well.

Battlefront does not have a policy of "official cast" minis for sponsored events. They certainly prefer it, but few FOW players could field the ISU-series assault guns or the Jagdpanther right now (though that should change by the end of the year). There are barely half a dozen aircraft types in their inventory and over a dozen in the stats. Battlefront also realizes that they are one of about half a dozen manufacturers of 15mm WWII minis; getting pushy with their products is going to backfire.

Another flaw in your argument is that Mongoose does not make minis. It did in the past, and it might in the future (I'm not holding my breath), but it does not now. Because of this, we cannot be guaranteed of a steady supply of the standardized scale. We have to get them where we can find them and a price we can afford. Scale popularity is geographically diverse; what's a popular scale in the UK may not be popular in the US. If I must go with a UK scale, which would include massive currency exchange rate and shipping costs, then I will go, i.e., walk away. There are other games with more reliable sources of models, thank you.

A final flaw is comparing a "near historical" game system with a fantasy/sci fi game that is also proprietary. While neither GW nor PP own the concept of an elf or orc, they do hold ownership of an expression of these concepts. As such, they are a little freer to enforce an "our models only" policy. They need to look a particular way to be eligible to be part of the official story line.

Near future and historical game systems have no such luxuries. No one can claim exclusive ownership of the concept of the M1A2 Abrams...well, at least not in the gaming context. There are dozens of producers of accurate models of the M1A2, and they come in three or for scales. Any one of these can legitimately represent an M1A2 in BE:MC.

At least until Mongoose gets back to actually producing official models for the game.
 
@DM Well said, as usual. I see your point.

@ skehrman...

Your first paragraph is awesome, and I agree: At this point, the horse is out of the barn and closing the doors is probably not the thing to do.

As far as the WizKids example, I have no idea what you are talking about, so that one is lost on me. Sorry.

As far as MGP not making minis being a flaw in my argument, it is actually the CRUX of my argument. MGP did make minis, which are now nearly useless. This is, imho, the birth of the issue.

As far as comparing historical to fantasy, my intent was not to draw comparisons to the actual miniatures, but to the business models of the companies involved. So I see no flaw there in my argument other than it was apparently miscommunicated to at least one person here, which means probably others as well, hehe.

So, to sum up what I mean, let me try to clear this up (again)...

Until MGP makes minis again, there will be these types of "standardization" issues which is a "Damned if we do, damned if we don't" dilemma. In some areas, the lack of a specified standard scale will cause folks to pass on the rules (areas such as where I live). In others, the act of standardization would cause folks to not buy it (areas such as yours I take it). My argument is not so much a demand for a forced scale, but a recommended scale so that events can attract more than just the "local" area. We have a bi-annual gaming convention coming up in two weeks where we regularly get players from several surrounding states (NorthWestern USA), and I have been tasked by the CON organizor to come up with a few events/demos. Unfortunately, he and the local game stores who support this event are not exactly hip on BF:Evo being one of the games this time. The two reasons being scale and lack of "official" miniatures. One store claiming one reason, the other store claiming the other.

Basically, I'm actually in the Mr Evil camp, and see merits on both sides, I was just illustrating my local experience tends to support the "standardization" side as it were. Especially as how it effects those of us who are officially sponsored representatives of the system trying to put forth our most professional (volunteer) efforts. We want the game to succeed, or we wouldn't be promoting it.

I can't fault MGP for the decision made, nor can I fault a potential customer being put off by standardization or lack thereof. I personally don't think there is a clean answer. I truly wish there were.
 
Surely, given the lack of a 'standard' from MGP (which, IMHO, could only really be truly standardised if MGP went back to producing a range of minis) It's up to tourney organisers to make the decision.

when the various 'DBX' ancients rulesets are played in this part of the world the tourneys are offered in both 15mm and 25mm at the same event - if both events have enough entries to satisfy minimum entry requirements then both go ahead, no problems. What's wrong with doing the same with WaW? At least that way the organiser can sound out which scale would predominate at a given event and would provide a good lead in for new players.

Given the relative cost of figs, the move from 28mm to 20mm would be significantly easier on the pocket than going the other way! :D

Slightly off topic but given other comments in this thread about 'eye candy' attracting new gamers, Something that would have made attracting new players to the rules a little easier would have been a full colour book with examples of play. Yes, i would have payed more for it (I play 40K and used to play FoW so am prepared for how expensive a 'pretty' book is! :shock: ) and would have made it easier for new players to get to grips with some of the concepts without having to troll through a forum for it.
just thought I'd throw my tuppence in on a topic that's probably been done to death elsewhere on the forums.... :?
 
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