SST:Evo ... Can Arachnids be Shattered?

[tneva82]

I do kinda wonder why people are making out that V1 was a hulking unplayable car crash of a game just because a new editions out though, I really don't remember any of these problems 6 months ago...

Game was dying. Needed something to spice up. Why NOT take advantage of possibility and release improved version? It's not like SST V1 was perfect...

Dunno what's so bad about getting improved rules but maybe that's just my thinking that better rules=better game...

 

[Iain McGhee]

Remember that in the EVO rules (at least the basic ones) there's no turn limit so you could treat the Shatter rule for the Bugs to mean that the MI had killed enough of them that their mission was complete or somesuch. It stops players keeping units off-table or underground until the last turn and then surfacing/flying on to score a win in certain V.1 missions. I don't fully agree with this rule for the Bugs as it will limit the "Arachnid Wave" tactics they use. Perhaps certain advanced rules will affect this, possibly Brain Bug effects or something. I'd wait until the full rules come out before making any judgements on the system. I've more problem with the fact that many of my current Arachnid and MI units won't have stats until possibly after the rulebook appears. Unless they are in the rulebook of course, unlike in BF:EVO.

 

[Hiromoon]

Sorry Iain.

 

[Makaiju]

Ok, it is my two cent time. (Euro exchange rate fixed via corporate standards)

The original thread is answered and clear cut. “Does the shattered rule apply to the bugs?” Per Matt, yes. Yes it does.

All the rest of our comments are starting to get out of scope and I’m going to try and reel them back to a single flow of information. Here I go:

Why should shattered affect bugs?

The point here is that shattered is a rule. The rule says something like “lose 75% of your army and you lose the battle.” That’s all players, who want to play tournament legal rules, need to know. Any comments on “why” the rule causes your army to lose is just fluff and doesn’t matter other then personal fun. In other words it is like the old RPG adage, ‘the die role represents the flow of combat, not just a single swing of your weapon.’


Do we have to play with Shattered?

No. House Rules are just that… house rules and house rules can let you do anything you and your partner agree on. Complaining and trying to force your idea on others (who don’t play in your house) about why a rule should be followed/ignored doesn’t matter in a house environment. Do whatever you want. For the most part questions here are to get ‘official’ rules so that we can be on even ground at open play events at stores or at official tournaments.


Is Shattered a good rule?

We can just yell our feelings but that is kind of pointless. Either you like the rule or you do not. If you feel it breaks game play, then instead of debating “good vs. bad” you should skip to the next two questions.


What is the Shattered rule and is it being talked about in the correct context?

I do not have the rules memorized but I believe the rule is ‘lose 75% of your army and you lose the battle.’ However if that is all the rule said, like word for word, then there is more then one way to interpret that rule. Is my army the troops I paid for at the start of the game what we are counting against? Should I not count troops in reserve until they come ‘out’ of reserve status? If all my units are underground does that mean I have 100% of my army in play or 0% out of play? (One means we start playing from turn one the other means I lost before the first turn started.) Does the 75% mean number of models or points of army? Imagine if we had to pay for the MI ship in orbit. That might be 900 points of your 1000 point army. If the rules had a way to take some single MI Lt. in a exo suite that cost 100 points, imagine the complexities of that. The enemy could kill ½ the army in 1 kill but may or may not take out 75% of your army points/effectiveness in that 1 kill. In other words we can not really debate the effectiveness of the rule until we have the word for word printing of the rule in front of us. (and then get to verify our interpretations of the rules with Matt)

How will Shattered affect SST?

Here is the funny part that everyone is over looking… we don’t know. Shattered is part of the core rule system Mongoose came up with. It’s part of a general table top game rule set and may have zero effect on SST when the “SST:EVO” specific rules are published. Shattered may be ignored or Shattered may be modified to require 90% lose of troops or maybe Shattered will only affect certain types of battles or maybe certain types of battles (like End Less tide) will say ignore Shattered or maybe units with the ‘iron’ trait ignore shattered rules. (Then like all bugs and Cap Troopers have Iron traits but everyone else is a pansy) The funny thing is you we don’t know until the rules for SST:EVO are published. In fact from what I ready thought it was impossible to play with the current set of ‘generic evo rules’ and use endless tide. The generic rules are not game specific. They are rules for all systems. Endless Tide is a game specific idea and isn’t addressed in the core/basic rules. Therefore you use the old SST rules and play with Endless Tide or you use the new EVO rules and play without Endless Tide for now…. Or you wait for future rules and see if Endless Tide comes back or is removed for good.

Ok… ideas are spelled out, categorized, and in full effect. Talk amongst yourselves.

 

[Rob_A]

I'm sticking with my comment. I like monkeys.

But.
Has anyone noticed Matt is ignoring this post now?
Your fighting a lost cause, just come off it, ignore it. It will work out well in the end, just like the pre-paints, just like new rulesets, just like every other damn thing you guys whinge about!
Im disappointed in you! :evil:

 

[Mage]

Well, it will make it different. AS I said before, entire ambushing skinny armies. Stops every unit being put away, and then your ass getting handed to you.
So if you did ambush an entire army, you'd lose automatically?

 

[MaxSteiner]

I think that was one of the really early examples of the mechanic in action.

Someone had a good point though, is it 75% of the points, or total models, or units? If its the latter 2 you might be able to get round it with loads of slave units (who cares if they're running away, theyre still on the board :lol, with the now less mobile MI you could probably make them last till its time to spring the trap...

 

[Mage]

I'd hazard a guess it is models, like the necrons in 40K.

 

[Poko]

i guess it's in the rules :roll:

Once an army has been reduced to a quarter of the number of models it started with (rounding down to a minimum of one), it is immediately
Shattered.

 

[Makaiju]

I think that was one of the really early examples of the mechanic in action.

Someone had a good point though, is it 75% of the points, or total models, or units? If its the latter 2 you might be able to get round it with loads of slave units (who cares if they're running away, theyre still on the board :lol, with the now less mobile MI you could probably make them last till its time to spring the trap...

I know I don’t always come off like it but I’m really not trying to kill this thread. Debating ideas is fun and I’m all up for that. I just have a habit of trying to trim out the ‘because I said so’ comments as much as possible. Well, unless they come from Matt. He can say what ever he wants. *Waves with a cheesy smile*

Does anyone have the rules they can retype for us? Or know where the correct rules are printed by Mongoose so that we can copy and past them here?

I would still like to know if it’s being referenced correctly so far. Maybe Shattered is really kind of a moral rule. If 75% of a “unit” dies then the unit flees off the table instead of the entire army being defeated. Also, is it 75% of your army cost or 75% of the number of models you bring? Is it 75% of the entire army roster or just what is in play? What about reserves? (I know people who consider reserves ‘off the board’ but still ‘in play’.)

You guys are pretty good at finding out these kinds of details and sorting through the speculation to find the real rules. So… get to it.

 

[Ragnarok]

Victory and Defeat
Once an army has been reduced to a quarter of the number of models it started with (rounding down to a minimum of one), it is immediately Shattered. When working out whether your army has been Shattered, you may only count models that are actually on the table - models that have not yet been deployed (normally because of special rules that apply only to them) are not counted. Models carried by other models that are on the table such as in transport vehicles) (Sic) are counted as usual.

A Shattered army has lost the battle, and its units can be assumed to either be wiped out or fighting hard to retreat. The opponent gains bragging rights.

This is the section of the Battlefield Evolution basic rules being discussed.

When I asked this question, my goal was to communicate concerns to Mongoose about this rule being applied to SST.

I applied it to Arachnids because, between Arachnids and M.I. (I have no experience with Skinnies) it would seem to work with M.I. but not with Arachnids.

No problems with MI - they would disband MI units that couldn't provide a cadre for newbies (the fate both PVT Juan Rico's unit and later CPL Emilio Rico's unit before joining the Roughnecks in the book), and 25% seems to hit that magic level when any survivors become part of the replacement pool. Also, to clarify an earlier comment, in the book Johnny Rico's graduating class numbered 197 out of 2,000 who entered - 9.85%.

My difficulties came with the bugs, because their communal mind creates another ideology (brilliant choice of words, MaxSteiner!).

All this discussion about armies not having the resources to press on is interesting, but this is a tactical game with long odds. How long odds?
- Roughnecks Pluto Campaign: 1 Million Bugs to 10,000 MI (100-1)

Reporter during Pluto Campaign: troopers knew what intelligence didn't know ... that for every bug you saw there were ten that you didn't see!
This really shatters the Shatter rule, but then again this was more on a strategic level.

Roughnecks Hydora Campaign - the Ripplers could swim as well as fly, and the Arachnids employed Ripplers as a majority troop type (so I agree that a flying bug army should be a viable option).

Roughnecks Tophet Campaign: All the warriors were underground, waiting to ambush the MI landing. Only the Skinny allies were above ground ... or should I say that only the control bugs controlling the Skinnies were above ground. How many bugs would have to be in ambush to take out the entire MI force ("What's the Bug count? I have a dozen ships up here with their meters ticking!")? Guess that scenario is too large to be tactical.

Roughnecks Tesca Campaign: The Arachnid attack consisted 100% of control bugs in tunnels. They shouldn't have even attempted it - they were Shattered to begin with!

Roughnecks Zephr Campaign: every battle showed the Firefries heading in one direction - towards the M.I., and every battle ended only with either the complete elimination of the attackng firefries or the successful retreat of the M.I. (across impassable ravines, etc).

As Dizzy exclaims in Roughnecks Pluto: "Errr, and the final score is ... Mobile Infantry 30, Bugs Zero!"

Yeah - I'm waiting for the rules to see what's going to happen, and I'm "on board", but I also see this forum as a chance to highlight some concerns. BTW, I'd appreciate your comments concerning the Tunnelling rule question I'll be posting in about ten minutes (that is, if the crick don't rise :roll: ).

 

[cordas]

On one hand I think you just have to accept it as a game mechanic.

Fluffwise just because the bugs have an unhuman ideology doesn't mean they will continue to press an attack that has already failed, irrespective of ideology; tactics and grand stratergy mean that sometimes you have accept a minor defeat rather than turning it into a major defeat if you are ever going to win the war.

Also be aware that these V & D conditions, whilst I am sure they will be in the advanced rules. Will only be one of a number of different ways that fights will be decided, if you look at the scenarios given for BF:Evo in S & P and in previews all have different V & D conditions.

Shattered simply gives a nice V&D condition other than wipe the opponent out to the last model, which given the lack of models would mean who ever took the most "big monsters" would invariably win. With shattered you now have to reduce the number of models on table below 1/4 which is possible without having to kill that tanker (near to impossible as skinnies), or Fenirs which is just about impossible.

 

[Aniyn]

Weather or not the bugs can still win "in the big picture" is irrelivent. Bugs ALWAYS fight to the death (and besides, we keep getting told this is a skirmish game, the big picture doesn't tend to matter in the trenches). Fluffwise, this game is going down the tubes faster than ..um, an MI sergent under a unit of hoppers.

<attaches a little bell to the end of his fishing rod; waits for someone to take bait>

 

[Turtle]

Accept it as a game mechanic for the basic game.

I'll go on record to say that I actually don't like the shattered rule simply because it's just too arbitrary. But then again, so are all the core rules.

If you notice, the scenario they gave us from the advanced rules in S&P had no shatter rule. It's likely that the advanced rules have other objectives beyond shattering.

ANd honestly, the shatter rule is more just one kind of objective you can play for. It's a simple, quick and dirty objective that focuses you on killing the enemy.

There's nothing saying you can't simply ignore the shatter rule entirely, something that I plan to do. I think many of my games in the future will involve objective locations, where you have to hold a certain amount to win, and only infantry can hold the location.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hi guys,

Would Arachnids back away from a disasterous attack? Of course they would!

Being near mindless and willing to die for the good of the species is not the same as being suicidal. Here is an example - imagine you are a brain bug. . .

Your assault is taking place across a ten mile front. We are going to focus on one area, tiny, but vitally important, as the main MI leadership is present. Knock this out quickly, and the rest of the assault will be a breeze as the MI try to recover the loss of command.

However, resistance is tougher than you expected. You have all your warriors, tankers and hoppers going in, and the pesky humans are putting up a real fight. You focus more attention on this area, as the attack is in danger of stalling.

This is a typical battle in SST Evo. We've just given it some scope.

Now, imagine your army in this area hits its Shatter point. You've lost the game. What does this mean in the grand scheme of things?

Well, for a start, even if your remaining warrior bugs in this area launch a final suicide attack to wipe out the MI and _succeed_, they are already too late to effect the wider war. The MI response in other areas of the ten mile line has been most effective, and your warriors are getting bogged down and slaughtered everywhere. Maybe, instead of being suicidal with your forces in the area we looked at, you will pull them back when it is clear their attack will not succeed - you'll use them elsewhere.

This last point is also critical, even in a much smaller setting where the fight on the tabletop is the only battle for miles around. Arachnids are numerous beyond human understanding - but running an effective colony is all about resource management. You have warriors that will die for you, sure. But if you get thousands butchered achieving every objective, you are going to lose the war.

In short, Shattering works just fine for bugs, for while they have different concerns to humans, they _do_ still have concerns.

And yes, we give a lot of thought to things like this

 

[Makaiju]

Hi guys,...

In short, Shattering works just fine for bugs, for while they have different concerns to humans, they _do_ still have concerns.

And yes, we give a lot of thought to things like this

My first reaction is to agree 100%.

Matt you are talking about the fluff side and while I know many don't agree with you, it's your company that licensed the mythos and I see no problem with how you are keeping the sprit of the game going.

However I do have one problem with the Shattered rule over all. No one has verified if tunneled bugs count as being in play. By the old rules many players said underground bugs were not in play. Same with ambush units/models.

How do you account for those models?

If I have a an all tunneling bug army, I might lose before my first turn. (since I have more then 75% of my army off the table) Skiniess, I think, can have the same problem.

My real questioning of the rule is purely a game mechanic.... "Does shattered limited army choices/tactics too much in SST?"

I mean I used to love having almost my entire army under ground or off in reserves and that one sole unit (or model) out on the table pretending to cry about being lost and fearing that someone will jump out at them and scare them to steal the yummy candy in their pockets.

Sure I was sacrificing something but the idea of using that sacrifice to pull the M.I. into a forced fight... the pulling them into my spider web approach... that was fun. Even when it didn't work... but I digress. That's not as much of a 'game mechanics' issue as a fluff or personal issue.

rules wise I've only done a few attempts to play like this with the core rules but I can't get anyone to agree on if I lost at the beginning of the game or not.

So Matt... what is it?

 

[Poko]

No one has verified if tunneled bugs count as being in play.

check the NEW rules for tunneling. only the models on the board count for the shatter treshold. new tunneling bugs aren't on table till they come up. ergo, they don't count.

seriosuly, 3/4 of the rules query can be solved by reading the rules carefully

 

[Makoto]

Same thing goes for an all-capsule MI, no longer a viable army.

Btw that rises a very interesting question about the first scenario in Gorlith campaign - who wins it, when both sides are shattered before the first turn? ^^

 

[Poko]

the guy with the second turn-you can't be shattered before the game starts :lol:

 

[cordas]

Same thing goes for an all-capsule MI, no longer a viable army.

Btw that rises a very interesting question about the first scenario in Gorlith campaign - who wins it, when both sides are shattered before the first turn? ^^

Its simple, the 1st scenario uses OTHER V & D conditions than shattered....