Spirit Magic

[danonano]

Some questions about how nature spirits are suppose to work against some antimagic spells.

1) Countermagic/Dismiss Magic/Neutralise Magic can be use against a released spirit? From the spells description it looks like Neutralise Magic is able to: "other permanent magical effects are temporarily neutralised"

2) Countermagic Shield/Spell Resistance protects from nature spirits effects, like "savage snip"?

3) Does Spirit Bane/Spirit Resistence work against released nature spirits?

4) And Spirit Block?

5) A spirit practitioner, must use the spirit walking skill to see his own released spirits?

6) What means a "directly observable" spirit? (page 90, using bound spirits)

7) What is the effect of a Curse Spirit?

8) If a fetch/disease spirit discorporates a player, is the player completely defenseless in the mundane world?

That's all!

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Some questions about how nature spirits are suppose to work against some antimagic spells.

1) Countermagic/Dismiss Magic/Neutralise Magic can be use against a released spirit? From the spells description it looks like Neutralise Magic is able to: "other permanent magical effects are temporarily neutralised"

Yes, if you can observe it. It'll temporarily drive off the spirit, or force it back into its fetch. However, in this case because the spirit is itself a sentient being you should give it a Persistence roll to resist the effect.

2) Countermagic Shield/Spell Resistance protects from nature spirits effects, like "savage snip"?

No. Nature spirits generally augment their user, not attack a target. Since Countermagic Shield and Spell Resistance are not area effect spells, they don't interact with the spirit, just like they wouldn't have an effect on a Beserk spell of an attacker.

3) Does Spirit Bane/Spirit Resistence work against released nature spirits?

It prevents the nature spirit from touching the recipient of the anti-spirit magic. Neither spell prevents the augmentation effects the spirit has on the shaman, except in the case of Spirit Bane or a Protective Ward if he crosses the boundary of the spell. But in this case the shaman could potentially release another spirit inside the boundary.

4) And Spirit Block?

Likewise.

5) A spirit practitioner, must use the spirit walking skill to see his own released spirits?

Yes, if he doesn't have a fetch or other magic allowing him to see, such as Second Sight.

6) What means a "directly observable" spirit? (page 90, using bound spirits)

A directly observable spirit is one that is revealed to your primary sense(s), e.g. sight, in which case it can be targeted and attacked.

The presence of a spirit may be detected (but not directly observed) from secondary effects its producing, or use of the Spirit Walking skill without entering a trance.

7) What is the effect of a Curse Spirit?

Its mechanically the same as a Sickness spirit except that it is tied to a different Rune.

8) If a fetch/disease spirit discorporates a player, is the player completely defenseless in the mundane world?

Yes. His awareness (and soul) has been dragged up onto the spirit plane. He no longer has any control of his body.

 

[SetentaeBolg]

As a follow-up question, how is Discorporation actually achieved? I was reading the Spirit Combat section last night and it mentioned the possibility, but I have some specific questions I didn't see an answer to:

1) Does the spirit have to "touch" the target (ie, be in engagement distance)?
2) Does the spirit just make a Discorporation roll, or is it opposed by Persistence?
3) Does this cost the spirit any mp? If not, can it simply retry every round?

I'm hoping the answers are something like:

1) Yes
2) Opposed roll (as this gives the player some chance to prevent it)
3) Yes; or some other mechanism/concept prevents infinite retries.

I was also thinking of introducing a house-rule that a discorporated target can refocus his attention on the real world for a single combat action by making a persistence check and spending a magic point. Doing this means he can offer no resistance on any opposed roll to spirit combat. This just allows for "desperate action" on the PCs part, lowering his defenses completely against spirit combat so that he can perform some heroic act in the physical world. Do you think that's a reasonable rule?

 

[gran_orco]

And one more question: How long is in effect spirit walking since it is activated?

 

[Mongoose Pete]

As a follow-up question, how is Discorporation actually achieved? I was reading the Spirit Combat section last night and it mentioned the possibility, but I have some specific questions I didn't see an answer to:

1) Does the spirit have to "touch" the target (ie, be in engagement distance)?

Yes, but something to bear in mind is that a spirit can make a discorporation attack from the physical or spirit plane. In the former situation the spirit is vulnerable and may be blocked by anti-magic spells. In the latter you cannot cannot affect the spirit, merely hold it at bay with anti-spirit spells. This is part of what make spirits so frightening.

2) Does the spirit just make a Discorporation roll, or is it opposed by Persistence?

It is Opposed by Persistence. The rule is mentioned under the High Shaman section of Spirit Walking, and should have been repeated in the Spirit Combat section.

3) Does this cost the spirit any mp? If not, can it simply retry every round?

Under the RAW it doesn't cost the spirit anything. However your suggestion of 1 MP per attempt is a reasonable one. Conversely a GM could say that if the Discorporation fails it cannot be attempted on that target again for 24 hours. Use whatever suits your campaign better.

I was also thinking of introducing a house-rule that a discorporated target can refocus his attention on the real world for a single combat action by making a persistence check and spending a magic point. Doing this means he can offer no resistance on any opposed roll to spirit combat. This just allows for "desperate action" on the PCs part, lowering his defenses completely against spirit combat so that he can perform some heroic act in the physical world. Do you think that's a reasonable rule?

Personally I wouldn't allow it myself, since unless the target has some skill in Spirit Walking he's trapped and pretty much helpless on the Spirit Plane. He might be able to dimly see his body below, but he shouldn't be able to reach it until the spirit is forced to release him from its discorporation (by driving it away or destroying it). This adds to the fear people should have of spirits and certain types of undead.

But I'm a famously brutal and nasty GM. You should probably stick to what fits the epic nature of your game.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

And one more question: How long is in effect spirit walking since it is activated?

As long as you want. Just remember that your body is in a trace and helpless until you stop using the skill. :twisted:

 

[SetentaeBolg]

I was also thinking of introducing a house-rule that a discorporated target can refocus his attention on the real world for a single combat action by making a persistence check and spending a magic point. Doing this means he can offer no resistance on any opposed roll to spirit combat. This just allows for "desperate action" on the PCs part, lowering his defenses completely against spirit combat so that he can perform some heroic act in the physical world. Do you think that's a reasonable rule?

Personally I wouldn't allow it myself, since unless the target has some skill in Spirit Walking he's trapped and pretty much helpless on the Spirit Plane. He might be able to dimly see his body below, but he shouldn't be able to reach it until the spirit is forced to release him from its discorporation (by driving it away or destroying it). This adds to the fear people should have of spirits and certain types of undead.

Thanks for the quick answers!

I see what you mean, and the rule would be abusable under certain circumstances; perhaps then allowing it, but stipulating it costs a hero point and doesn't require a persistence check. That way it represents truly heroic effort, drains a highly limited resource, still has an opportunity cost (as you offer no defense to the spirit combat) and allows "heroic" action.

I should also say that to my mind, this isn't pulling entirely away from the spirit world, but kind of half-way piloting your body for that special, desperate action - your spiritual self is still exposed in the spirit world, except you cannot offer any defense to it, and when you have done whatever you were intent on, you are still discorporated as before.

 

[Antalon]

Some questions about how nature spirits are suppose to work against some antimagic spells.

1) Countermagic/Dismiss Magic/Neutralise Magic can be use against a released spirit? From the spells description it looks like Neutralise Magic is able to: "other permanent magical effects are temporarily neutralised"

Yes, if you can observe it. It'll temporarily drive off the spirit, or force it back into its fetch. However, in this case because the spirit is itself a sentient being you should give it a Persistence roll to resist the effect.

This is very significant - I hadn't realised that 'anti-spell' spells can effect spirits. Could you clarify:

1) I presume the intensity of the spirit is used to determine whether the Dismiss or Neutralise Magic spell can affect the spirit (perhaps also requiring an opposed persistence check as you indicate)?

2) So how long is temporary? Dismiss Magic is an Instant spell - its effects disappearing after casting, opponents spells would normally be completely eliminated. What happens to spirits? Driven off? But for how long? If forced back into their Fetish, what prevents the Spirit Magician simply calling forth the spirit in his next Combat Action? Would the duration of this effect differ for Sorcery and Common Magic spells?

3) Can these anti-magic spells be used as a reaction to drive off the spirit if it tries to Discorporate a character? I presume the magician would need to see the spirit?

For me, the ability to use Dismiss Magic etc to neutralise spirit magic (alongside its own set of specific spirit warding spells) seems to make a major change to how I was reading the rules. I think its a departure from earlier editions too (I'm thinking of RQ3 from Avalon Hill). Would you be able to add some clarification to the official errata pages on this? Do the spell descriptions or spirit magic chapters need to be modified or expanded - I did not read any implication that this family of spells could be applicable to spirits?

2) Does the spirit just make a Discorporation roll, or is it opposed by Persistence?
It is Opposed by Persistence. The rule is mentioned under the High Shaman section of Spirit Walking, and should have been repeated in the Spirit Combat section.

This is important too - it makes sense (as both High Shaman and Fetch must beat an opposed persistence check, but I had missed it when reading the rules. Please can this be added to the errata too?

Thanks

Antalon.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

[1) I presume the intensity of the spirit is used to determine whether the Dismiss or Neutralise Magic spell can affect the spirit (perhaps also requiring an opposed persistence check as you indicate)?

Yes.

2) So how long is temporary? Dismiss Magic is an Instant spell - its effects disappearing after casting, opponents spells would normally be completely eliminated. What happens to spirits? Driven off? But for how long? If forced back into their Fetish, what prevents the Spirit Magician simply calling forth the spirit in his next Combat Action? Would the duration of this effect differ for Sorcery and Common Magic spells?

Nothing stops the shaman from simply calling back the spirit on his next action, save for the expenditure of a magic point. Just like nothing stops any caster from recasting a dismissed spell on his next action. If the anti-magic spell has a duration then the spirit is driven away until the spell elapses.

Anti-magic spells work, but they don't work very well. Its more effective to use anti-spirit spells instead.

3) Can these anti-magic spells be used as a reaction to drive off the spirit if it tries to Discorporate a character? I presume the magician would need to see the spirit?

No, discorporation isn't a spell as such. If the magician successfully resists the discorporation and can see the spirit and the spirit is on the material plane - then he can try to dismiss the spirit on his next turn.

 

[gran_orco]

Nothing stops the shaman from simply calling back the spirit on his next action, save for the expenditure of a magic point.

So, when should a shaman use his spirit binding skill to control a spirit?
I supposed that he could call it forth from its fetish to gain instantly its power (I thought that commanding a spirit was only needed for combat purpouses) . Should he make a succesful spirit binding to obtain its power?

No, discorporation isn't a spell as such. If the magician successfully resists the discorporation and can see the spirit and the spirit is on the material plane - then he can try to dismiss the spirit on his next turn.

But, when is a spirit on the material plane? I thought that it was on the material plane if it was bound within its fetish, and on the spirit plane when it was released from its binding.

 

[Antalon]

Nothing stops the shaman from simply calling back the spirit on his next action, save for the expenditure of a magic point.

So, when should a shaman use his spirit binding skill to control a spirit?
I supposed that he could call it forth from its fetish to gain instantly its power (I thought that commanding a spirit was only needed for combat purpouses) . Should he make a succesful spirit binding to obtain its power?

No, discorporation isn't a spell as such. If the magician successfully resists the discorporation and can see the spirit and the spirit is on the material plane - then he can try to dismiss the spirit on his next turn.

But, when is a spirit on the material plane? I thought that it was on the material plane if it was bound within its fetish, and on the spirit plane when it was released from its binding.

Hello Gran Orco - nice questions. My view:

1) The rules seem fairly clear (page 139 under Spirit Binding) that whether the spirit is bound into a fetish, or the Shaman has negotiated a service and has the spirit's name, he must make a succesful spirit binding skill check, spending 1 MP, to communicate his request to 'control their actions' or 'coerce a known spirit to perform a single deed for a mutually acceptable service'. I think that without the spirit binding roll, the spirit would just drift about on the material plane, ignoring the Shaman (or if hostile attack or otherwise hinder the Shaman).

2) I think spirits that are bound or called (where the Shaman has negotiated a service) are on the material plane - although in an insubstantial state (see page 140, second para under Using Bound Spirits). The relevance of the spirit being on the material plane is it can be targetted or resisted by spell (if it is seen), but grants its special power to the Shaman. Also, page 142 'spirits which have been bound to a physical fetish are tied to the material world and removed from the spirit plane'.

What I'm not clear on is:

If a spirit that is bound to a fetish attempts to discorporate the soul of a living person (if that is what the Shaman commanded it to do) then, as Pete noted above, this can be done from the material or spirit world. But - discorporation and spirit combat can only occur on the spirit world (page 141). So:

1) I don't understand Pete's comment that discorporation can take place from the material world, where a spirit is bound to a fetish (and so 'tied to the Material Plane') - can a bound spirit (that is tied to the material world) not actually use its discorporation power?
2) This would make sickness or curse spirits effectively useless - if bound, and tied to the material plane, I don't see how they could discorporate another soul - spirit combat can only take place on the spirit plane?
3) Where in the rules is the ability to discorporate from the material or spirit world detailed?
4) Is a bound spirit prevented from moving back and forth between the spirit and material world?

This is remaining a challenging area to understand - although these rules are very much better than the previous version of spirit combat, I'm still just not 'getting' some parts!

Antalon.

 

[gran_orco]

As I understand this, I think that the system is like this:
1) Spend 1 CA= The spirit is free
2) Shaman must make a succesful Spirit Binding roll to gain its power (1 MP. It is a free action, but how many attemps could he do each CA? And when can he do this test?: When spirit is free or 1 CA later...)
3) Shaman recall a spirit back to its binding spending 1 CA (1 MP, succes in Spirit Binding is automatic)

We need a Pete's clarification. :roll:

 

[Loz]

We need a Pete's clarification.

You'll have to wait. Pete's incommunicado at the moment.

But I'll try and clarify this for you (later).

 

[Antalon]

Thanks Loz - Pete's comments about discorporation being possible from the material and spirit world have confused me when considering the text on page 141 regarding 'spirits which have been bound to a physical fetish are tied to the material world and removed from the spirit world'?

 

[Loz]

So, when should a shaman use his spirit binding skill to control a spirit?
I supposed that he could call it forth from its fetish to gain instantly its power (I thought that commanding a spirit was only needed for combat purpouses) . Should he make a succesful spirit binding to obtain its power?

Spirit Binding ties the fetch to the fetish. It is then used to connect the shaman to the fetch to he can draw on its powers. Thus, if I have a zebra spirit bound into my zebra mane fetish and I want to increase my movement (which is the spirit's power), I need to make a successful Spirit Binding roll to channel the power. Its not that the spirit it unwilling; but its akin to channelling any form of magical energy.

If a spirit that is bound to a fetish attempts to discorporate the soul of a living person (if that is what the Shaman commanded it to do) then, as Pete noted above, this can be done from the material or spirit world. But - discorporation and spirit combat can only occur on the spirit world (page 141).

A free spirit can only discorporate from the Spirit Plane. A spirit tied to the mundane world - however that might be; fetish, magic or otherwise - can use its discorporate to drag an opponent's soul onto the spirit plane, as long as it has the Discorporate skill. Disease spirits, for example, are tied to the physical world through the physical representations of the their disease (the symptoms) and their worshippers, like Malia, in Glorantha.

So:

1) I don't understand Pete's comment that discorporation can take place from the material world, where a spirit is bound to a fetish (and so 'tied to the Material Plane') - can a bound spirit (that is tied to the material world) not actually use its discorporation power?

Yes it can: think of it as a version of enforced Spirit Walking. A high shaman can take other souls with him onto the Spirit Plane. Discorporation spirits can do precisely the same thing, but aren't shackled by rank.

A fetch with Discorporation can drag the souls of its shaman's enemies onto the Spirit Plane and batter the bejesus out of them; or hold them there until such time as the shaman commands the release.

2) This would make sickness or curse spirits effectively useless - if bound, and tied to the material plane, I don't see how they could discorporate another soul - spirit combat can only take place on the spirit plane?

Okay, imagine this scenario. Grunwald the Unwary is wandering through a broo tomb somewhere in Prax. He uncovers the rotten remains of Mistress Ghast, Malia High Priestess. Her horns are the fetish for her Creeping Chills disease spirit fetch. Grunwald, fancying some new horns for his helmet, seizes the skull...

The disease spirit immediately attacks, attempting a Discorporate. It matches its Discorporate 75% against Grunwald's Persistence 65% and wins. Grunwald's soul is now on the Spirit Plane, with the disease spirit, and about to go down with the nastiest disease of his life. As he has no Spirit Binding skill, he cannot resist combat and the within seconds he is completely infected with the Creeping Chills disease. On the material world his physical body begins to shake and shudder, exploding in horrid boils as the disease spirit takes effect. Within a few seconds, Grunwald is dead. On the spirit plane he had no magic to fend off the spirit, and no combat skill that he could use either. The disease is bound to the material world, but it can discorporate back to the spirit plane to wreck havoc.

This is what makes spirits so utterly, utterly nasty. Unless you have some anti-spirit magic, or a shaman, or a bound spirit of your own, you can be completely bleeding stuffed if a malevolent spirit successfully discorporates you. And bound spirits can do just that from the material world, returning to their binding afterwards to do it all over again.

3) Where in the rules is the ability to discorporate from the material or spirit world detailed

?

I do think this needs further clarification. Essentially its the same as Spirit Walking as cast by a high shaman: you resist the Discorporation with your Persistence in an Opposed test. Fail and you're dragged to the spirit world. Succeed and you're not. The spirit can make subsequent attempts to discorporate you just as with any form of attack.

4) Is a bound spirit prevented from moving back and forth between the spirit and material world?

A bound spirit resides primarily on the material world because its bound to a fetish or other binding object. It can discorporate to the spirit world to do its shaman's bidding but will return to its place of binding. It can return to the spirit world but simply can't do so at will.

Hope this clarified things a bit...

 

[Antalon]

Thank you Loz. This does clarify things.

I think the references to spirits being 'tied to the material world' if bound and spirit combat occuring on the spirit plane only threw me.

A single description of the discorporation skill, its use and limitations in the errata may help to clarify the existing text.

The analogy to spirit walking makes discorporation very much easier to comprehend. It effectively allows spirts (or Shaman) to pierce the barrier between the material and spirit worlds - regardless of which side they are on.

Thanks again.

Antalon.

 

[Loz]

A single description of the discorporation skill, its use and limitations in the errata may help to clarify the existing text.

Its a bit late for the errata. However, if you simply apply the Spirit Walking mechanic to spirits, there you have Discorporation. We should have made that bit clearer!

The analogy to spirit walking makes discorporation very much easier to comprehend. It effectively allows spirts (or Shaman) to pierce the barrier between the material and spirit worlds - regardless of which side they are on

.

Precisely.

 

[gran_orco]

It has been clarified. Thank you Loz.
But I still do not know if a shaman should spend 1 MP to release a spirit from a fetish, another one to obtain its power, and finally another one to recall the spirit back to its binding :?: And how many CA must he spend to do that.

 

[gran_orco]

My girlfriend wants to know if the guardian spirit faces an offensive spell with its persistence in an opposed test, or if it is an unopposed roll of persitence, instead.

 

[gran_orco]

Any knows?