Spirit Combat

[gamesmeister]

There's been a lot of talk on these forums about Spirit Combat, and how it should be represented. So I got to wondering how, if I had a blank piece of paper, how I would implement it within the RQ framework.

I think part of the existing problem is that Spirit Combat is used in a number of (rather different) situations, and it doesn't quite handle all of them. For example, spirit combat is used by a Humakti Rune Lord fighting a Wraith in an old ruin, a Chalana Arroy priestess using a Healing Spirit to cast out a Disease Spirit, or equally a Shaman trying to bind a Spell Spirit into a Fetish.

These are all valid uses of Spirit Combat, but the use of combat skills against the spirit as used by MRQ is not suitable for all of these scenarios. The thought of a shaman continually bashing a magic spirit over the head with a glowing club until it surrenders is a bit daft to say the least. To quote CoG2, shamans contact the spirit plane to "bargain with or worship the entities there" in order to learn spirt magic. Chopping them up with a magic sword can hardly be construed as bargaining.

That said, I do think physical combat has its place against spirits (think Aragorn against the King of the Dead). And I have no problem with the way spirits do physical damage in Spirit Combat - in fact I think that's pretty damn cool. Very Nightmare on Elm Street, and will scare the shit out of inexperienced players when some invisible force starts ripping up their buddy.

There are a few groundrules regarding Spirit Combat:
1) It needs to be dynamic and exciting. MRQ already achieves this pretty well by using the ebb and flow of combat, whereas in previous versions of RQ, Spirit Combat was a bit of a dice off. The other problem with earlier versions was that as soon as one side got the upper hand the result was almost a foregone conclusion.
2) It needs to accurately represent how any character might struggle with a spirit.
3) It needs to fit the MRQ ethos of simplicity

Given the above (ramble), I think MRQ has got it half right with their combat-based approach, but they should have considered other approaches too - there's more than one way to skin a spirit.

That's the preamble, next up is one possible approach.

 

[gamesmeister]

Given the above, I'd suggest the following:

Spirit Combat becomes a new skill. This new skill needs to indicate mastery of some sort rather than combat, so my preferred name for it is Dominion. It's starting points would be POW + CHA.
Dominion can be used by spirits against corporeal creatures, and vice versa.
All corporeal creatures would have a spiritual damage bonus just like spirits do now i.e. CHA + POW rather than STR + SIZ. Include bound POW in this value too (thus making a shaman with a Fetch and some bound POW spirits very powerful in Spirit Combat).
Add some new combat actions.

1) Suppress: Add 10% to your next attempt to Possess a corporeal creature, or Subdue a spirit. Max bonus +30%
2) Focus: Add 20% to your Persistence against any Possession attempt made against you until your next combat action.
3) Drain: Make a Dominion skill check. If successful, drain a number of magic points from your opponent equal to your spiritual damage bonus. Any spirit reduced to zero magic points can be subdued. A Drain action can be Dodged. This action can only be used if at least one of the combatants is a spirit.
4) Possess: As per the possession rules, but change the opposed roll to Dominion vs Persistence.
5) Subdue: Attempt to capture a spirit that has zero magic points remaining. This is an opposed roll, Dominion vs Persistence.

These new actions are available to all creatures (whether spiritual or corporeal) unless otherwise stated, and allows them to attack either physically using a Close Combat action, or spiritually using the actions above. Thus a wraith can rip someone to pieces with it's high Spectral Sword attack, while a Disease spirit would have a high Dominion skill to quickly overcome its target.

There is also the possibility of applying an extended contest using bargaining skills, where a shaman has to win x number of rounds in order to win the contest. This mechanic is already used by the Excorcise Divine spell, but may prove too big a change on top of all of the above.

 

[simonh]

One thing I realy liked about previous editions of RQ was the fact that there were three different forms of combat. Three different axes on which a character could be formidable. There was physical combat, spirit combat and magic.

Physical combat is streightforward - using physical weapons to inflict hit point damage. There was mnagic to enhance this, in the form of bladesharp, protection, etc.

Magical combat was in the form of attack spells such as Befuddle, Madness, disruption, etc with defence such as countermagic, dispel magic, etc.

Spirit combat was the poor relation in some ways because there were no attack-enhancing spells, but only defences such as spirit block and spirit shield. Attacks were in the from of spirits actualy attacking you, or a shaman using Visibility to attack a corporeal target, or sending a bound spirit to do the dirty work.

These were three very distinct 'ralms' of conflict, and proficiency in one said little about proficiency in the others. They complemented each other in the way that land, air and sea power complement each other in real-world conflicts.

The MRQ approach of using mundane combat skill in spirit combat, and having spells that augment physical combat also augment spirit combat muddies the symetry quite a bit.

I realy liked the RQ4 approach of having a seperate Spirit Combat skill, and spirit combat damage based off POW much like a damage bonus. Something like this realy is the way to go IMHO.

 

[gamesmeister]

I really liked the RQ4 approach of having a seperate Spirit Combat skill, and spirit combat damage based off POW much like a damage bonus. Something like this realy is the way to go IMHO.

I've honestly never seen RQ4, so it's nice to see my thinking is along the same lines as those authors...I guess it's the obvious way to go really.

As much as I've tried to defend it, I do think Mongoose have dropped the ball with regards to their spirit combat system - simplicity is an admirable goal, but not at the expense of common sense.

 

[Rurik]

There were a few threads on this right after the release of the Companion, If I find the time I may dig some up as there were some good ideas floated around.

The disadvantage to creating a separate skill is, well, another skill. Not to say it is a bad idea - I may end up using a separate skill myself - but adding too many new skills creates problems with the new experience system. Possible alternatives are to use the Persistence skill, or Summoning which seems to be the 'spirit' skill as introduced in CoG 2.

Also, using Magic Points for spirit combat has a big problem in MRQ - namely the Dedicated POW rule - especially as this also seems to apply to shamans. Divine and Spirit magic users will have low personal MP and so be at a disadvantage. If you are planning on ditching the dedicated POW rules that is fine, but if you want houseruled spirit combat to work with those rules another option is necessary. A separate stat for Spirit HP is one idea (based on POW or the Average of POW and CHA).

Finally, Possession as written can be be tried every combat action by a spirit. A spirit with a 20 skill can just keep trying until it gets lucky against a 90 skill. Once the above issues are resolved I would settle with reducing the targets Magic Points or Spirit Points or whatever to zero to possess as in older versions.

Just my thougts on the subject so far.

 

[gamesmeister]

The disadvantage to creating a separate skill is, well, another skill. Not to say it is a bad idea - I may end up using a separate skill myself - but adding too many new skills creates problems with the new experience system. Possible alternatives are to use the Persistence skill, or Summoning which seems to be the 'spirit' skill as introduced in CoG 2.

It would be an additional Advanced skill, which I don't think is much of a big deal. As for the experience system, you'd have a shaman spending points in the new skill rather than 1H Axe (or whatever), which seems to me to be a good thing.

Also, using Magic Points for spirit combat has a big problem in MRQ - namely the Dedicated POW rule - especially as this also seems to apply to shamans. Divine and Spirit magic users will have low personal MP and so be at a disadvantage. If you are planning on ditching the dedicated POW rules that is fine, but if you want houseruled spirit combat to work with those rules another option is necessary. A separate stat for Spirit HP is one idea (based on POW or the Average of POW and CHA).

Check my suggestion again - I'm not really proposing to use Magic Points for spirit combat. A shaman needs to reduce a spirit to zero MPs before he can attempt to subdue it i.e. bind it into a fetish, but other than that they're not used. As spirits wont generally be carrying divine magic, that shouldnt become much of an issue.

Finally, Possession as written can be be tried every combat action by a spirit. A spirit with a 20 skill can just keep trying until it gets lucky against a 90 skill.

Well, it becomes a race. Can the spirit win it's opposed possession roll before the adventurer can reduce it's HP to zero. That's why I suggested new actions such as Suppress and Focus - they introduce an element of tactics into spirit combat. However, a spirit up against an adventurer equipped with Second Sight and a Firebladed sword is going to die pretty damn fast, and will have very little time to get lucky.

On the subject of instant possession, as opposed to reducing the target to zero MPs first, I'm actually ok with that. The whole point about covert possession is that others aren't necessarily aware that it's happened. If a spirit has to have a spiritual bun fight before it can possess its target, every man and his dog will know what's happened, and only solitary targets can ever be truly covertly possessed.

 

[Rurik]

The disadvantage to creating a separate skill is, well, another skill. Not to say it is a bad idea - I may end up using a separate skill myself - but adding too many new skills creates problems with the new experience system. Possible alternatives are to use the Persistence skill, or Summoning which seems to be the 'spirit' skill as introduced in CoG 2.

It would be an additional Advanced skill, which I don't think is much of a big deal. As for the experience system, you'd have a shaman spending points in the new skill rather than 1H Axe (or whatever), which seems to me to be a good thing.

Fair enough. As I said I may use an additional skill myself. I just generally like to warn against skill creep - often I have seen new skills suggested for this reason or that, and there is only so much room for adding them. This may be well be a good case.

Also, using Magic Points for spirit combat has a big problem in MRQ - namely the Dedicated POW rule - especially as this also seems to apply to shamans. Divine and Spirit magic users will have low personal MP and so be at a disadvantage. If you are planning on ditching the dedicated POW rules that is fine, but if you want houseruled spirit combat to work with those rules another option is necessary. A separate stat for Spirit HP is one idea (based on POW or the Average of POW and CHA).

Check my suggestion again - I'm not really proposing to use Magic Points for spirit combat. A shaman needs to reduce a spirit to zero MPs before he can attempt to subdue it i.e. bind it into a fetish, but other than that they're not used. As spirits wont generally be carrying divine magic, that shouldnt become much of an issue.

If allowed to why wouldn't a spirit attack MP rather than HP if a character is low on MP? It would be much more likely to win. This would make Divine Magic Users and Shamans particularly vulnerable.

Finally, Possession as written can be be tried every combat action by a spirit. A spirit with a 20 skill can just keep trying until it gets lucky against a 90 skill.

Well, it becomes a race. Can the spirit win it's opposed possession roll before the adventurer can reduce it's HP to zero. That's why I suggested new actions such as Suppress and Focus - they introduce an element of tactics into spirit combat. However, a spirit up against an adventurer equipped with Second Sight and a Firebladed sword is going to die pretty damn fast, and will have very little time to get lucky.

A race that is very hard to win if the player does not have second sight or a suitable combat spell. Spirit Bane and great weapons again being the easist way to win. Though I would say second sight is more important, as the penalties incurred to hitting the spirit are heavt without it.

One idea I am playing with is making possession attempts cost MP, so that a spirit can only try a limited amount of times in a short timeframe.

Another idea I have posted in the past is to make spirit bane fixed damage or progressive, doing damage based on magnitude. That way a shamans ritual dagger is as effective as a great axe. It just doesn't make sense to me the damage should be based on the weapons physical properties.

On the subject of instant possession, as opposed to reducing the target to zero MPs first, I'm actually ok with that. The whole point about covert possession is that others aren't necessarily aware that it's happened. If a spirit has to have a spiritual bun fight before it can possess its target, every man and his dog will know what's happened, and only solitary targets can ever be truly covertly possessed.

That is a very good point. Though I still like the idea of an epic struggle against a spirit rather than a single roll it is very obvious what is happening - hardly covert at all. Perhaps Covert and Dominant possession could be handled differently.

 

[simonh]

The disadvantage to creating a separate skill is, well, another skill. Not to say it is a bad idea - I may end up using a separate skill myself - but adding too many new skills creates problems with the new experience system. ....

Also, using Magic Points for spirit combat has a big problem in MRQ - namely the Dedicated POW rule -...

I think this just indicates how awkward the experience and dedicated POW rules are, not the other way around.

Simon Hibbs

 

[gamesmeister]

If allowed to why wouldn't a spirit attack MP rather than HP if a character is low on MP? It would be much more likely to win. This would make Divine Magic Users and Shamans particularly vulnerable.

This depends on what happens if a character is reduced to zero MPs. I don't remember what the rules actually say on this - if the character falls unconscious or is otherwise put out of action, you're right that cultists and shamans are vulnerable - as SimonH says, this is more of a problem with the dedicated POW rules than anything else.

If on the other hand very little happens, the spirit will gain nothing by reducing a characters MPs to zero, other than to prevent him or her from casting rune magic and boosting divine spells.

A race that is very hard to win if the player does not have second sight or a suitable combat spell. Spirit Bane and great weapons again being the easist way to win. Though I would say second sight is more important, as the penalties incurred to hitting the spirit are heavy without it.

Indeed. If you get into a fight with a spirit and you are unprepared, you're in big trouble, but then the same could be said for many opponents. That said, a skilled warrior can still dispatch a spirit with relative ease (even at -40%), as long as he has some magic on his weapon.

One idea I am playing with is making possession attempts cost MP, so that a spirit can only try a limited amount of times in a short timeframe.

Now this I like. How many MPs were you thinking? Perhaps a base of 1, but the spirit could boost its chances of success by "overcharging".

 

[Exubae]

Must admit I prefer the spirit damaging MP and using a Spirit Combat 'skill', but it presents a whole bag of trouble trying to integrate it with the system.

But if you change things then Divine magic users are stuffed big time:
If you keep the current dedication rules then the cultist is prime possession meat.
If we move back to POW sacrifices for divine magic, then the XP system hammers them.

I suppose I could allow POW gain rolls... but it is more overhead on the system... sigh

Its like the 'whop a rat' game, you smack one rat of the head with your mallet and another two rats pop up their heads.

 

[gamesmeister]

Must admit I prefer the spirit damaging MP and using a Spirit Combat 'skill', but it presents a whole bag of trouble trying to integrate it with the system.

Not with my suggested solution

But if you change things then Divine magic users are stuffed big time:
If you keep the current dedication rules then the cultist is prime possession meat.

Current magic points have nothing to do with possession in my proposal

If we move back to POW sacrifices for divine magic, then the XP system hammers them.

Agreed, but as stated elsewhere this is an existing problem with Divine magic and experience rather than spirit combat.

Its like the 'whop a rat' game, you smack one rat of the head with your mallet and another two rats pop up their heads.

Aye, the product of a system who's parts were tested in isolation, and not as a whole (if they were tested at all).

 

[Rurik]

The disadvantage to creating a separate skill is, well, another skill. Not to say it is a bad idea - I may end up using a separate skill myself - but adding too many new skills creates problems with the new experience system. ....

Also, using Magic Points for spirit combat has a big problem in MRQ - namely the Dedicated POW rule -...

I think this just indicates how awkward the experience and dedicated POW rules are, not the other way around.

Simon Hibbs

The experience system I am mixed on. I have no problem at all with the old way - skills get better by use makes sense to me, and skill check hunting was never a major problem in any of my games. But the fact is also that many people express a preference for the MRQ system, so I consider this one a matter of preference.

The Dedicated POW rule on the other hand is my single most hated MRQ rule and I don't recall ever seeing anyone defend it. Not only does it limit divine spellcasters to a relatively low number of spell points and cripple their magic points it makes you recalculate all your POW based skills every time you cast or regain a divine spell. Streamlined indeed.

The fact that shamans suffer from this same limitation is worse as they actually need their MP to cast spells (but at least they don't need to re-calculate their skills every time they cast one).

I for one don't mean to use dedicated POW as written, but figured it was worth mentioning as a consideration of allowing spirits to attack MP.

 

[Rurik]

One idea I am playing with is making possession attempts cost MP, so that a spirit can only try a limited amount of times in a short timeframe.

Now this I like. How many MPs were you thinking? Perhaps a base of 1, but the spirit could boost its chances of success by "overcharging".

I was thinking more than 1, but haven't settled on an amount. 1 is too little to actually make a difference most times - the contest will often be decided one way or another before say 12 possession attempts are made. 3 sounds like a good number, or maybe a random amount like 1d6. Crits costing 0 or 1. Another possibility is only losing MP on failed attempts. Finally, I considered maybe 1 plus one 1 per point of POW the target has greater than the spirits POW (possibly combined with a 1d6 for failure).