Spells

[Trifletraxor]

As for your first question, how do I make it fit with the rules, I pretty much went into those details in my original post. You can see my examples of how to apply the Runic system to Spirit Magic. I basically don't use the MRQ system at all. I stick with the old RQ system but tweak it by making it more Runic.

I've read your original post, but can't see the answer to my question there, which was: how do you make this stick with the old divine spell rules? I'm not talking about MRQ rules, they all need houseruling anyway. You say a RuneLord/Master would keep his divine magic reusable after quitting a cult. How do you make this fit with the previous rules/world?

Then each character has to learn a skill in each Rune. Only upon Rune Mastery can he actually tatoo the Rune onto himself and call upon it's powers. Now, by this I don't mean he learns, say, the Water Rune and can cast spells using Water Runes. By Rune I mean more than that, I mean the combinations of Runes like Water and Mobility for Zola Fel. I count that as ONE Rune. Knowing and mastering that Rune would give him skills in Water and Mobility separately (I give them half their skill in each separate Rune of what they have in the Combined Rune.)

Hmm... I don't like characters to have a skill in a rune. Doesn't really fit with my view of Glorantha, but game-technically it could work.

SGL.

 

[Pentallion]

I've read your original post, but can't see the answer to my question there, which was: how do you make this stick with the old divine spell rules? I'm not talking about MRQ rules, they all need houseruling anyway. You say a RuneLord/Master would keep his divine magic reusable after quitting a cult. How do you make this fit with the previous rules/world?

They could quit their old cult, and face the consequences of Divine Retribution. However, it wouldn't be good roleplaying unless they went into the cult trying to do what Arkat did, which isn't generally what I encourage. But to answer your question, once they have the Runes tatooed upon themselves, they can just call upon the magic. But typically, a Runelord wouldn't do this. He'd still be faithful to his cult. He'd still pray and so forth for the spells. He's not actually sacrificing POW to the God anymore so the God isn't getting anything out of the deal, he's basically just letting the God know "yeah, I don't need to say this prayer to you, I can go on without you, but I'm praying to you so you know I'm still your loyal servant." So as far as divine magic goes, nothing really changes. It's only when applying this system to Spirit and Sorcery magic that it really shines IMO. Divine magic is too demanding of the caster and he pretty much remains very limited. Unless he is willing to face the grave risks.

Come to think of it, I've never actually explained this to my players when they have a RuneLord character as I have always figured they'd never even contemplate the action of abandoning their God. Now if, in the course of events, the plot required it of them, I'd explain that yes, they don't actually have to remain with so and so to keep that spell now that they're Rune Lords, but if they leave, they'd be facing dire consequences. Nothing worse than a pissed off jilted God. You'd think that having used the same Rune experience rules with shamans, sorcerors and priests, that someone would have brought that up by now. Oh well.

Hmm... I don't like characters to have a skill in a rune. Doesn't really fit with my view of Glorantha, but game-technically it could work.

SGL.

I don't really think of it as a skill. It's more a knowledge, or deep rooted understanding. I have the skill of bicycle riding. I have an understanding of physics.

 

[Voriof]

In essence: The God Learners were wrong in what they did. Reality finally could not tolerate the abuses imposed on it and snapped back into its orginal configuration. The place crashed and rebooted - without the God Learner viruses.

Sure, that's your computerized version of the story, based on the tales left by the victorious, which as we all know, are the ones to write history. Just as the God Learners, you may also be wrong... :shock:

SGL.

But, all things considered, probably not.

You've asked a question, a few of the people you call mock for being "experts" have given some very good answers. If you don't like the answers you get, well... YGMV.

Jeff

 

[Trifletraxor]

In essence: The God Learners were wrong in what they did. Reality finally could not tolerate the abuses imposed on it and snapped back into its orginal configuration. The place crashed and rebooted - without the God Learner viruses.

Sure, that's your computerized version of the story, based on the tales left by the victorious, which as we all know, are the ones to write history. Just as the God Learners, you may also be wrong... :shock:

SGL.

But, all things considered, probably not.

You've asked a question, a few of the people you call mock for being "experts" have given some very good answers. If you don't like the answers you get, well... YGMV.

Jeff

I agree, probably not. What I don't agree to is the 100% NOT, there can be no other explanation - like answer you gave before.

SGL.
SGL.

 

[frogspawner]

It doesn't entirely solve the problem, though, as the runic associations of the cult spells do not line up very well with the runes possesssed by the cults.
...
I'm now convinced that "Rune Magic" simply can't work with Glorantha unless Runes are made as common as water, and that using spell daimons is probably the more sensible way to deal with the problem.

Yes, the Mongoose guys have rather crudely bolted-on these physical Runes, probably just for the sake of the "Rune Quest" pun.

But what's this forum for, if not to solve problems like that causes?

You are right, that the cult spells don't match the cult runes properly. But please don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I have tried to solve this by adding a just one or two runes to each spell, and it seemed to work out quite well. (My version is posted in some thread hereabouts, but I know others have worked out similar solutions, so maybe someone else would like to post theirs here...?)

 

[soltakss]

Another point of proof that my analysis is correct is how Death was discovered. It wasn't created by the Gods. No God embodied the Death Rune. It is described as being DISCOVERED. ie, it existed independently of the Gods until the Gods incorporated it into them. Of course, it was Man who was the first to die so he then embodied the Death Rune. Note that he didn't die THEN we have the Death Rune, no. The Rune was discovered first and Man was tricked into using it and dying. Immortals couldn't do so without becoming Mortal. This was a new thing to the Gods.

Actually, Subere had the power of death and hid it in the underworld, setting Vivamort to guard it. So, she already had death and knew about it and didn't want people to get it. It was only through Eurmal's trickery that Humakt managed to get Death and use it against Graddfather Mortal.

So, the gods did create Death.

Grandfather Mortal did not embody the Death Rune, he merely took Death on as an aspect, turning eventually into Daka Fal. Humakt embodies Death as he did the Death Quest to get all the bits of Death he could find and put them together. That's why in RQ3, Humakt owned the Death Rune.

The Death Rune granted the power of Mortality, not the Gods.

The power of Death granted mortality, which Humakt had forged into a sword. Eurmal made a copy of the Sword, which seemed to work OK, and gave Death to Orlanth, then Death was passed around with everyone and his dog getting a bit of Death. I doubt if the Gods had the Death Rune, as such, but they became associated with it through their use of Death.

You can argue all you want to that the Runes derive their powers from the Gods but the facts support the opposite thesis.

That's a matter of opinion.

Umath was born from Earth and Sky, but was the first Air/Storm God. Did the Rune manifest and jump into him, or was he born different and the Air/Storm Rune then manifested as part of his powers? All of his children inherited their Air/Storm powers, but in different ways. Did he pass the rune to them or did they just inherit his powers?

If Air/Storm was the leader, then all Air/Storm gods would have the same powers. As they don't, there is more happening than just having the Air/Storm rune.

Death wielded by Hunter Deities is different to that wielded by Warrior deities or underworld deities. The darkness of Kyger Litor or Subere is different from that of, say, Black Fang.

Runes are important, but I think that the nature of the deity is just as important.

 

[frogspawner]

You are right, that the cult spells don't match the cult runes properly. ... I have tried to solve this by adding a just one or two runes to each spell, and it seemed to work out quite well...

No-one else want to post their list? OK, here's mine again:

Spell [MRQ Runes] + Other Alternative Runes
Babel [Disorder & Communication]
Befuddle [Disorder & (Man/Beast)] + Harmony/Moon/Chaos
Bestial Enhancement [Beast]
Bladesharp [Metal] + Mastery/Death
Bludgeon [Metal] + Darkness
Clear Path [Plant]
Coordination [Movement] + Truth
Countermagic [Magic] + Harmony
Countermagic Shield [Magic & Stasis] + Man
Cover of Night [Shadow] + Darkness
Darkwall [Darkness]
Demoralize [Disorder] + Darkness
Detect Enemy [Truth] + Beast
Detect Magic [Truth] + Magic
Detect X [Truth] + (any rune related/opposite the thing detected)
Dispel Magic [Disorder] + Magic/Man
Disruption [Disorder] + Chaos
Dragon Breath [Dragon]
Dullblade [Metal] + Darkness/Fertility
Emotion [Moon]
Endurance [Fertility]
Extinguish [Air] + Death
Fanaticism [Law] + Death
Fate [Fate]
Firearrow [Fire]
Fireblade [Fire] + Death
Frostbite [Cold]
Glamour [Harmony] + Moon
Goldentongue [Trade]
Good Fortune [Luck]
Hand of Death [Death]
Heal [Fertility] + Truth
Ignite [Fire]
Light [Light]
Mindspeech [Communication] + Truth/Trade?
Mobility [Movement] + Beast
Multimissile [Infinity]
Oath of Ordeal [Truth]
Pierce [Stasis]
Protection [Earth] + Beast/?
Repair [Metal] + Truth
Second Sight [Spirit] + Earth
Shimmer [Illusion] + Light
Skybolt [Chaos] + Air
Slow/Binding [Movement] + Beast/Stasis?
Speedart [Movement] + Plant
Strength [Beast] + Mastery?
Thunder Voice [Mastery]
Undead Bane [Death]
Versatility [Man]
Vigour [Beast] + Fertility
Warmth [Heat]
Water Breath [Water]
Spirit Bane [Spirit]
Spirit Screen [Spirit] + Fertility
(And some other spells. Call me old-fashioned...)
Food Song [-] + Plant
Sleep [-] + Harmony
Jumping [-] + Mastery/Movement
Preserve Herbs [-] + Earth/Harmony
Lantern [-] + Light
Peaceful Cut [-] + Beast
Farsee [-] + Mastery/Beast/Truth
Parry [-] + Truth
Glue [-] + Earth/Harmony
Lightwall [-] + Light/Mastery
Sneeze [-] + Chaos/Death
Detection Blank [-] + Chaos/Illusion
Stone Biting [-] + Darkness/Movement
Tree Chopping Song [-] + Darkness/Death
True Net [-] + Chaos/Fate
Image Creation [-] + Chaos/Illusion
Silence [-] + Air/Stasis

Phew. I don't have CoG1, but this seems to support the cult spell-lists from Cults of Prax/Terror (& some of GoG) quite well, if you're using the interpretation that cult runes (and, for initiates, associated cults' runes) are effectively integrated for spell learning/casting.

Not too many runes added to each, I hope you agree, and voila!. The mismatching cult spells/cult runes problem is solved. I hope you find it helpful!

 

[simonh]

Wrong? Their experiements proved them correct or they couldn't have pulled them off. They weren't WRONG, they just weren't WISE. They didn't foresee that the forces they were dealing with would strike back forcibly given enough tampering with the natural order of things.

That's the point though. Their analysis relied on the basic principle that the forces they were dealing with were impersonal and were incapable of striking back. The fact that these forces could strike back proves that the God Learner theories were fundamentally flawed from the start. They only appeared to switch goddesses, for example. Their philosophers conveniently ignored flaws in their own proofs, and in the case of the Goddess Switch even faked evidence of success and suppressed evidence that it wasn't working properly, in the belief that the problems were just teething troubles and it would all settle down and work properly eventually - but it never did!

Check out the Glorantha 2nd Age book for info on this. It was all based on hubris. They were so convinced that their theories were correct - MUST be correct - that they failed to spot the fact that most of their grand experiments never really worked properly and had hideous unexpected side effects right from the start.

 

[simonh]

Another point of proof that my analysis is correct is how Death was discovered. It wasn't created by the Gods. No God embodied the Death Rune. It is described as being DISCOVERED. ie, it existed independently of the Gods until the Gods incorporated it into them. .....

...
You can argue all you want to that the Runes derive their powers from the Gods but the facts support the opposite thesis.

I have never said the runes derive their power from the gods, and I don't think anyone else here has. I think one good way to think about it is that the runes represent the fundamental - and by that I mean indivisible - forces of the cosmos, and the gods/great spirits/saints/etc are personifications of these in a form comprehensible by mortals. They are the necessary conduits, or interfaces by which finite and flawed mortal minds can interact with the transcendent powers represented by the runes.

Myths are not history, they are allegorical, symbolic maps of the relationship between otherworld powers and entities. They exist outside time, not before it. They tell us about the world as it is right now, not how it once was.

 

[Arlaten]

[Greg Stafford, the designer of the cosmology of Glorantha, holds that gods are either the source of runes or holders of runes.]

“Illumination is not a problem for gods. Certainly every deity which is the owner or source of a rune has obtained a state of consciousness which is their equivalent of Illumination, and probably many more as well, perhaps all of them. But deities, by definition, are eternal cosmic powers. They have very little (if any) free will and no opportunity to make choices like humans have.

It's dangerous among human beings only when it is misused, which is regrettably quite easy. The practicing experts of Peloria, Koralorela and the East Isles all insist upon strict disciplines for those who seek the mystical path. They also have ways to quickly detect and destroy anyone who strays off the path.

Spontaneous Illumination is a greater threat, and apparently the Lunar Empire is less quick at detecting these, or just more tolerant. Such untrained illumination provides its bearer with a cosmic perspective which is devoid of any other perspective or connection with the world, and also access to tremendous cosmic powers. Without guidelines the temptation to use those powers is almost impossible to resist.

Humakt, as all the gods, provides his worshippers with a set of spiritual and material guidelines to allow them to obtain that cosmic power and not be destroyed by it.”

Hence, no hypocrisy from Humakt here.

http://www.glorantha.com/greg/q-and-a/humakti.html

Greg Stafford, the designer of the cosmology of Glorantha, holds that gods can be the source of runes or holders of runes (but it is not necessary for them to do either one – see the Red Goddess, below). Because humans have free will, great cosmic powers are dangerous to them. Greg indicates that Rune cults (mystery cults) present guidelines that allow rune priests/initiates to obtain cosmic power without being destroyed. This is why the Rune cults of Runequest 2 (and Runequest 3, to a great extent) are so important.

In the third edition either Stafford or Sandy Peterson write:
“Rune (roon) is an ancient term of similar pronunciation and meaning in most Northern European languages. Runes were symbols cut into wood and stone to warn, charm, curse, or heal. Some runes became alphabet letters. The word now refers to marks or signs of any type, from any culture. In RuneQuest, any rune is potentially magical.

A magic rune has within it, by shape or creation, a power deriving from the potency of the force or forces which the rune symbolizes. A magical rune for the sun, for instance, could be understood to have within it some of the warmth and live-giving force of the sun. If a person could properly employ that magical sun rune, some aspect of the sun’s power would be his to command. But learning how to use a magical rune may require much study or effort.”

According to this a symbolic rune only partially harnesses some benefit of what the rune symbolizes. Therefore, the rune represents a power or derives its power from a source.

The Red Goddess began as a human and gained her power without runes and without a deity.

“ The Red Goddess herself, began as a young human girl with awakened senses, conquered them, and survived to become a kind and pure goddess.”
-the Cults Book
Greg Stafford and Sandy Peterson

In the Mongoose version, Sprange writes, “Runes are said to be the blood drops from the gods, who constantly war in the sky above. When their blood touches the earth, it is transformed into an item of potential – usually a stone, though runes can also take the form of other things….” Sprange has his own idea of runes and where they come from. It is hard to mix and match the philosophies of the two systems together. In Sprange’s version runes are ‘bits of the gods’ as someone mentioned earlier, and their power is contained in the rune, rather than being a focus for some portion of the rune’s power.

In the original Glorantha (before sorcery was created) runes were either mysteries that a deity held or they were emanations from a particular deity. Runic symbols scratched into items (carefully and through proper ceremony) imparted some of that magic to common items so that everyone could have some. The more devoted adventurers became members of rune cults to emulate their god, and eventually gained some of the powers of the rune the god held or the emanation associated with her/him. Sorcery and Divine magic were later added so that the rules could be used with other fantasy worlds or with alternate earth settings. In RuneQuest 2 and Dragon magic would have been handled entirely with cult rune magic and in RuneQuest 3 it is special divine magic from the Path of Immanent Mastery.

In the Mongoose version the author wanted to use the term Rune magic for Common Magic or Spirit Magic, so he couldn't use the term Rune magic for Divine Magic. However, the principle is the same as for RuneQuest 2, you need a rune to cast Battle Magic (Rune Magic in MRQ), and you need to draw on a Runic Power to cast Rune Magic (Divine Magic in MRQ). Sorcerers don't need Runes at all to cast their spells. You probably won't need them for Dragon Magic, either. I fail to see how runes are focused on more in MRQ than in the previous versions.

And...physical runes are not a new-fangled invention by Mongoose. RuneQuest 2 required a focus for battle magic, and Runequest 3 required a focus for Spirit Magic. In RuneQuest 2 you could cast a spell that required a focus without a focus (see below), but it took extra time.

"Many spells require a focus. This focus is a carved rune of some sort which acts to tie the conscious and unconcious minds together so that the spell works. It is possible to cast a spell without a focus, but it takes two melee rounds to do so, the first round being spent in carefully visualizing the runic symbol necessary for the spell and the target it must effect."
RuneQuest 2

In MRQ you need the blood drop of the god (the rune) as the focus. There is no provision for casting one without a rune, but you could take the rule above as a house rule.

 

[Rurik]

In the Mongoose version, Sprange writes, “Runes are said to be the blood drops from the gods, who constantly war in the sky above. When their blood touches the earth, it is transformed into an item of potential – usually a stone, though runes can also take the form of other things….” Sprange has his own idea of runes and where they come from. It is hard to mix and match the philosophies of the two systems together. In Sprange’s version runes are ‘bits of the gods’ as someone mentioned earlier, and their power is contained in the rune, rather than being a focus for some portion of the rune’s power.

It is worth mentioning that what you quote above is straight from the core rulebook, and so a 'generic' take on runes.

Runes are described differently in both G:tSA by Robin Laws and in the Runic Powers PDF (material that was originally written for Magic of Glorantha by Aaron Dembski-Bowden). In Runic Powers there are many explanations for the source of runes from different viewpoints - the drops of blood from the gods being the Theistic take on them. This is pretty true to Gloranthan form - ask a divine worshipper and they say runes come from the gods, ask a shaman and you will get a different answer.

 

[Arlaten]

Rurik wrote:

It is worth mentioning that what you quote above is straight from the core rulebook, and so a 'generic' take on runes.

Yep, you're right. I didn't read the introduction to the Glorantha book.

Here's the quote from Glorantha, the Second Age:
"The objects of magical essence called runes, from which adventurers wring their Rune Magic, are physical manifestations of the True Runes, symbols of cosmic power. All beings capable of dispensing magic are tied to one or more of these cosmic forces, whether they be gods, demigods, or great spirits."
Robin Laws
Glorantha, the Second Age

I agree with this description (especially the vagueness of 'tied to one or more of these cosmic forces'). The reading of that could mean that the Red Goddess was connecting directly to True Runes through some sort of mystic practice.

I do think that Strange's notion was connected with the world of Glorantha, however. For one thing, Robin Laws' definition of rune is more generic and has wider usage than Strange's definition of a rune. In how many worlds does the blood drop from deities and get turned into runic objects? Its closely related to the idea of POW stones from earlier editions of RQ. For another, the system of the 'generic' rules is too closely associated with RuneQuest 2 to be generic. I think Robin, being more familiar with Glorantha after working with Greg on Hero Wars, just knows more about the concept. It looks to me as if Laws was trying to correct some errors in concept that were presented in the Core Rules.

 

[Arlaten]

I do think that Strange's notion was connected with the world of Glorantha, however. For one thing, Robin Laws' definition of rune is more generic and has wider usage than Strange's definition of a rune

Sorry, That's Matthew Sprange, not Strange...guess I shouldn't try to answer these during game breaks.

 

[Rurik]

I agree with this description (especially the vagueness of 'tied to one or more of these cosmic forces'). The reading of that could mean that the Red Goddess was connecting directly to True Runes through some sort of mystic practice.

I do think that Strange's notion was connected with the world of Glorantha, however.

A strange notion indeed.

True, like much of the core book it 'kinda' applies to Glorantha while being 'kinda' generic too. The Rulebook explanation is in Runic Powers as the Theist (specifically Orlanthi) view. It is just one explanation.

 

[Trifletraxor]

True, like much of the core book it 'kinda' applies to Glorantha while being 'kinda' generic too.

That's why I dislike that RuneQuest have been made a "generic" system. You end up with something which falls in between, and which isn't really suited for neither Glorantha nor as a generic rule system.

SGL.

 

[Pentallion]

Certainly every deity which is the owner or source of a rune

Source, in this context, I take to mean the source for worshipper access. They are the owners of those Runes and thus are the source to worshippers for that Runes magic. That is not the same as being the source OF the Rune itself. This is further defined in their other writing:

Here's the quote from Glorantha, the Second Age:
"The objects of magical essence called runes, from which adventurers wring their Rune Magic, are physical manifestations of the True Runes, symbols of cosmic power. All beings capable of dispensing magic are tied to one or more of these cosmic forces, whether they be gods, demigods, or great spirits."
Robin Laws
Glorantha, the Second Age

The Gods are tied to these cosmic forces. That is because they came into being because of these cosmic forces. Each combination of Runes, such as Water and Mobility, are expressions of each Runes cosmic power combined. That particular expression manifests itself as The River. Zola Fel is nothing but the God of a particular physical manifestation of The River. Hence, the Rune combo would manifest an Elder River God, Father of All Rivers. He is the truest representation of the Rune combo of Water and Mobility and symbolizes all that is true about the nature of Rivers. Zola Fel is a further expression of that Rune Combo. He is the representation of a particular river, the River of Cradles, on the physical world. As the Runes express each physical thing, each idea, each reality, they also express Gods for each one.

So it's correct to say the more basic Gods are nearest to being the Runes, but they did not create the Runes. The Gods have to obey the essence of their Runes. Hence, no freedom of choice.

Here's a thought: What if you found a Rune Combo that no one else knew? What would the effect of that combo be? Let's say it makes the Closing temporarily go away. Now you're the only source of that Runes magic and the only Runelord who can sail on the seas. When you die, many would worship you so that you could give them access to how to cast magic to open the seas. So you become a God. Did the Rune Combo create you? Did you, a human create the Rune Combo?

Or was the Rune Combo simply there all along just waiting to be found?

Now that Dormal has become a God, he's lost his personal freedom. He must act within the limits of his Rune Combo's symbolic meaning. Look at the Runes for Dormal:

One is Water.
What is the other one? It's some H-shaped thing that isn't listed anywhere as a Rune. If one were to guess, I'd say it looks like the Harmony Rune with the middle crossed. Like a street sign that reads No Harmony. Could it mean he broke the Harmony with Water would be the Rune Combo for Sea Life. Could Zzaburr have used that H-Like Rune somehow to create NonHarmony with NonSeaLife and made passage impossible? Could Dormals discovery of that Rune Combo been his means to breaking the Closing just temporarily? It's all speculation.

But what would stop a Rune Lord of the Dormal Cult from finding some primitive island inhabitants and teaching them to open the seas and then establishing himself as their local version of the Cult? Hence different cultures worshipping different versions of the same kind of God.

 

[Arlaten]

Pentallion wrote:

Source, in this context, I take to mean the source for worshipper access. They are the owners of those Runes and thus are the source to worshippers for that Runes magic. That is not the same as being the source OF the Rune itself. This is further defined in their other writing:

I think if it meant that, Greg would have said owner and source of a rune rather than owner or source of a rune. The idea of physical runes was tied up in the magical crystal idea of RuneQuest 2, at the time rather than being physical runes that were handed out as foci for common magic. At that time runes were inscribed on objects (I guess you could take the knowledge of how to inscribe the rune as being the same thing.)

Also, I thought that when Yelm died the world was plunged into darkness. Orlanth (the lightbringer) doesn't go get the Sun rune to bring back light to the world, he resurrects Yelm, which indicates to me that Yelm is the source of the Sun rune (but not the fertility rune and the death rune). In fact in the old cults book, I assumed that whenever two runes of the deity were given side by side, that the deity was the source of the rune (for instance Ernalda would be the source of the Earth rune while other deities (such as Voria) would be the owner of an earth rune. The source of a rune would not have to have a rune to wield its power. The runes that the deities owned I would consider True runes (not physical runes), symbols of cosmic power. I would think that these True Runes could be stolen or won in battle on the God Plane. But that's just my opinion.

Actually a rune used to mean (historically) 'secret' or 'mystery' and the symbol of the rune was only used to invoke its power on the physical plane. If this were the cosmology of RuneQuest, you wouldn't be able to steal or win an object, but only gain knowledge of the secret in the same way fantasy martial artists gain powerful martial arts secrets. This is the way I used to envision it, but the MRQ game has made this concept difficult to keep.

Pentallion wrote:

But what would stop a Rune Lord of the Dormal Cult from finding some primitive island inhabitants and teaching them to open the seas and then establishing himself as their local version of the Cult? Hence different cultures worshipping different versions of the same kind of God.

I mean this in a good sense (not a sarcastic sense), but I sure wish you had been my GM when my character became a Rune Lord. My rune wasn't much more than a magical tattoo. By the way, I don't have any of the new Rune cult books. Is there a differentiation between Rune Lord and Rune Priest in MRQ?

 

[Voriof]

[But what would stop a Rune Lord of the Dormal Cult from finding some primitive island inhabitants and teaching them to open the seas and then establishing himself as their local version of the Cult? Hence different cultures worshipping different versions of the same kind of God.

Nothing, except, of course Dormal is a Third Age hero (in fact, he provides Common Magic in HeroQuest, which indicates he draws his power from no Otherworld, but from the Middle World).

However, its not as simple as saying "Dudes, worship me." There is a quite a lot of preparation and danger in a God Quest (or becoming a Majestic Spirit or a Saint/Founder). There's been a fair amount written on it in HeroQuest and it is remarkably difficult. There's an entire chapter on it in the Imperial Lunar Handbook 2 discussing how many Lunars have become gods.

Regardless of the aspirant's original cult there are a few things that must be done. First and foremost, you have to be able to have earned a unique magic of your own through heroquesting. Second, you must somehow be able to provide your worshippers with this power in exchange for their veneration, sacrifice, or other form of worship.

If you can do this, then you can probably see about being immortal which allows the cult to perpetuate.

Of course, those currently holding access to whatever runes the aspirant has may not be entirely helpful, especially if the aspiratnt is seeking to strike out on his own. Its one thing to seek to support Shargash by being one of his Heroes but entirely another by trying to steal Thunder for yourself.

Worse, those forces inimical to whatever you are trying to do will take an interest. This is in fact instinctive and automatic in Glorantha. If you seek to Open the Seas yourself, then the forces of the Closing, those forces supporting the Closing, and those forces that created the Closing in the first place will be arrayed against you in some fashion.

So, no, its not as easy as saying, "Look at me, I'm Dormal". A missionary is not worshipped for himself, but brings worship of his god to a new land. That said, I am sure that there are many GL sorcerers who use sorcery to supplant or alter the worship patterns to their own ends. Remember too, how that turned out.

Its just not as simple and easy as you make it out to be. Glorantha is very much a living magical ecosystem and grafting a new piece onto it in the form of a new hero or religion is going to cause problems. Always. Its just the way Glorantha is.

Jeff

 

[soltakss]

Also, I thought that when Yelm died the world was plunged into darkness. Orlanth (the lightbringer) doesn't go get the Sun rune to bring back light to the world, he resurrects Yelm, which indicates to me that Yelm is the source of the Sun rune (but not the fertility rune and the death rune). In fact in the old cults book, I assumed that whenever two runes of the deity were given side by side, that the deity was the source of the rune (for instance Ernalda would be the source of the Earth rune while other deities (such as Voria) would be the owner of an earth rune. The source of a rune would not have to have a rune to wield its power. The runes that the deities owned I would consider True runes (not physical runes), symbols of cosmic power. I would think that these True Runes could be stolen or won in battle on the God Plane. But that's just my opinion.

In Glorantha, which is where the runic system is best described, Aether Primolt is the Source of the Fire/Sky Rune, Yelm is the Owner of the Fire/Sky Rune and other Solar/Fire Deities Have the Fire/Sky Rune.

So, we have:
Darkness Rune:
Source: Nakala
Owner: Subere
Water Rune:
Source: Zaramaka (?)
Owner: Magasta
Earth Rune:
Source: Gata (Ga)
Owner: Ernalda
Fire/Sky Rune:
Source: Aether Primolt
Owner: Yelm
Air/Storm Rune:
Source: Umath
Owner: Orlanth

The Deities of the Celestial Court are the Sources of other Runes and, with the exception of Uleria, those runes are owned by other deities.

Other deities have the runes, so althouigh Oakfed is the Burnder, he does not own the Fire Rune, Yelm does. Yelm is not the source of the Fire Rune, Ernalda, although powerful, is not the source of the Earth Rune, but she does own it being Queen of the Earth Deities and regained her Earth Powers in Hell.

Runes can certainly be stolen by defeating opponents. Eurmal stole Death a number of times, Yavor Lightning stole the Storm Rune/Storm powers when he took Umath's Lightning Powers.

 

[Arlaten]

Well, your post did get me curious, and I had to look back into the Magic and Religion section of RuneQuest 3, and I was wrong.

It doesn't say that any deity is the source of a rune in the way I was thinking.

Each rune has myths associated with it... all begin with a member of the Celestial Court who owned the rune, and end with the current Greater God who owns it. In these stories the runes are sometimes treated as things, or beings, or abstract powers, or even all three.

The next page gives an extensive list of runes and the original owners and their current owners. The items on your list match the items on that list except replace 'source' with 'original owner.' This undoubtedly IS what Greg meant when he said the 'source' of a rune. He probably meant source in the sense of the 'original owner.' I was thinking of source in the sense that a deity is the rune and would have no need to own it, and would never pass ownership onto another deity.

Thanks for the correction.