Spells

[Pentallion]

The runes play and important role, maybe an essential role, but the talk here ignores any need for supernatural beings or religion in Glorantha. It is the religious insights that grant magic...the runes are symbolic, mnemonic tools. I'm not trying to belittle their importance, but just to point out that they aren't the be-all and end-all of magic in Glorantha. The God Learners may have thought so, but they were wrong.

There's no ignoring of the need for supernatural beings or religion in Glorantha. The religious insights that these being have, however, are of the symbolic meanings of the Runes themselves. Instead of sharing these insights, the supernatural beings allow mundane men to use the powers of the Runes to affect the natural world around them. Only Rune Masters would have learned enough of the secrets of the meanings behind the symbolism of the Runes to have mastered them for their own use. It is only at that point that a Rune Master would be able to cast aside his God and go out on his own. However, that is precisely why the Gods require so much committment and devotion from their priests in order for them to learn the true meanings of the symbolism of the Runes, to ensure that they are NOT going to just cast aside their Gods once they've acquired their secrets. ie, the secrets of the Gods are only shared with the True Believers. Believers who understand what the God Learners did not: That allowing widespread knowledge of the Runes amongst the masses only invites disaster and an unbalancing of nature and the natural forces contained in each Rune.

It's like having the laws of nature contained within Runes instead of being physical laws of nature as we are taught in science. If everyone had all the power of science at their fingertips, we'd all be dead by now the minute some crazy decided to nuke us.

That is what Arkat refers to when he says you have to respect the magic. (I can't remember the exact quote about RuneQuesting). Something the God Learners did not do. The God Learners were not True Believers. Hence they approached Runes as resources to be exploited, with no concern to the imbalances to nature such exploitation would create.

The sorcerors fall into the True Believer category only when they worship Malkion. The atheists do not. The atheist sorcerors are completely on their own in discovering the mystical symbolism behind the Runes and understanding how that symbolism interlocks with the natural world around them. To understand these things requires knowledge of the mystical (and sometimes mythical) events that transpired during Gods Time that brought those Runes into existence. However, the atheists at least acknowledge the role of the Runes in maintaining the natural world and respect their place in the Gods Plane such that they wouldn't switch Goddesses or pull the other stunts pulled by the God Learners.

So from that perspective, then yes, the runes ARE the be all, end all of magic in Runequest. For without the runes, even the Gods would be powerless.

 

[Quire]

So from that perspective, then yes, the runes ARE the be all, end all of magic in Runequest. For without the runes, even the Gods would be powerless.

That makes no sense at all.

Would you like to try to explain your point again? Or were you just thinking out loud?

- Q

 

[simonh]

There's no ignoring of the need for supernatural beings or religion in Glorantha. The religious insights that these being have, however, are of the symbolic meanings of the Runes themselves.

But those meanings are religious meanings. They are moral and metaphysical truths that underpin the fundamental teachings of the religion.

Only Rune Masters would have learned enough of the secrets of the meanings behind the symbolism of the Runes to have mastered them for their own use. It is only at that point that a Rune Master would be able to cast aside his God and go out on his own.

I totally, completely disagree with this. It's exactly the sort of blind alley that I am worried that this focus on runes might lead people down. For example, a Humakti that learns about the true nature of Death learns the inner mysteries of exactly why Humakt behaves the way he does in his myths, and therefore why Humakt and Humakti must follow even the most appalling and awful rites of Humakt. They learn the cosmic role of death, but this doesn't free them from their god, it binds them to Humakt more closely than ever.

This is the distraction - the idea that the runes have a separate existence from religious context. They don't. They cannot be understood, and in fact are meaningless outside a comprehensive philosophical framework. It's like saying that alphabetical letters can have a meaning separate from any language or culture

So from that perspective, then yes, the runes ARE the be all, end all of magic in Runequest. For without the runes, even the Gods would be powerless.

That's like saying without words, sentences would be meaningless. They are much more intricately linked than that. The runes and the gods aren't separable entities in the way that your analysis assumes.

 

[Pentallion]

Yet Arkat did exactly that.

And the God Learners would beg to differ.

I'm not arguing with you that a Humakti would become even more closely tied to his God after becoming a Rune Lord, in fact, I explain right after the part you clipped that that is certainly the case. But the fact remains that once becoming a Rune Lord, his spells become reusable. And the fact remains that even after Arkat left each cult he could still cast the spells.

As for the moral and metaphysical truths, in Glorantha, there's little indication that any cult has any special claim to morality. Metaphysical truths are what we're dealing with here. Perhaps morality lies more in Draconic teachings, but that is one of those YGMV areas IMO.

As to the other poster who didn't understand my statement that without the Runes even the Gods would be powerless, my point is that the metaphysical truths that each rune represents are embodied by each God. Each God takes upon himself several Runes and combines them to make his personal aspect. Zola Fel, for instance, embodies Water and Movement. One can easily grasp the association there. But other Gods could embody Movement without Water. The Rune is not the God. Therefore, the Runes (and their metaphysical truths) are independent of the Gods. If there were no Runes, then there'd just be science as we know it in the real world. The Runes express themselves in Glorantha as magic. No Runes, no magic and the Gods are powerless.

Even how the subcults work are dependent upon the Runes. The Cleansed One Subcult of Zola Fel embodies Water, Movement and Harmony. Being a subcult requires the embodiment of the major cults Runes of Water and Movement and adds in the Rune of Harmony to differentiate itself. It is how those Runes interweave that creates the magic of the subcult. It's how the subcult was created in the God's Time that allows it to associate itself with those Runes. The acts that took place are the symbolic expressions of the Runes. Understanding hte symbolism behind the events of the Three Bean Circus, etc. is what allows you to understand how those three Runes combine and the relationship between them.

So if one mastered all three Runes separately, one would still not be a master of the combination of all three Runes that create the Cleansed One Subcult, but one would obviously have deeper knowledge of how those three Runes might be merged.

Without the Runes, none of this is possible.

But please remember, this is just my interpretation. If you find this way of integrating Runes into your campaign enjoyable, then that's great. If you do not accept my interpretation, then by all means, don't use it. No need to get all worked up about it in any event.

 

[Magistus]

As to the other poster who didn't understand my statement that without the Runes even the Gods would be powerless, my point is that the metaphysical truths that each rune represents are embodied by each God. Each God takes upon himself several Runes and combines them to make his personal aspect. Zola Fel, for instance, embodies Water and Movement. One can easily grasp the association there. But other Gods could embody Movement without Water. The Rune is not the God. Therefore, the Runes (and their metaphysical truths) are independent of the Gods. If there were no Runes, then there'd just be science as we know it in the real world. The Runes express themselves in Glorantha as magic. No Runes, no magic and the Gods are powerless.

I am sorry but I think this is wrong. The gods don't take aspects of the runes, it's the other way around the runes are taken from the aspects of the gods.

 

[Magistus]

As to the other poster who didn't understand my statement that without the Runes even the Gods would be powerless, my point is that the metaphysical truths that each rune represents are embodied by each God. Each God takes upon himself several Runes and combines them to make his personal aspect. Zola Fel, for instance, embodies Water and Movement. One can easily grasp the association there. But other Gods could embody Movement without Water. The Rune is not the God. Therefore, the Runes (and their metaphysical truths) are independent of the Gods. If there were no Runes, then there'd just be science as we know it in the real world. The Runes express themselves in Glorantha as magic. No Runes, no magic and the Gods are powerless.

I am sorry but I think this is wrong. The gods don't take aspects of the runes, it's the other way around the runes are taken from the aspects of the gods.

 

[Pentallion]

I am sorry but I think this is wrong. The gods don't take aspects of the runes, it's the other way around the runes are taken from the aspects of the gods.

That's another way of looking at it, but then it doesn't explain sorcery or spirit magic the same way. Nor does it explain swapping Goddesses or changing myths. My way does.

 

[Quire]

Yet Arkat did exactly that.

No he didn't.

And the God Learners would beg to differ.

No they wouldn't.

As to the other poster who didn't understand my statement that without the Runes even the Gods would be powerless, my point is that the metaphysical truths that each rune represents are embodied by each God.

No, they're not.

But please remember, this is just my interpretation.

That's great! YGMV, after all.

If you do not accept my interpretation, then by all means, don't use it.

Cool! Thanks for your permission not to!

No need to get all worked up about it in any event.

Thing is, I disagree with you. I don't feel particularly worked up about it, but I do feel that you've got hold of the whole thing ass-backwards.

Anyone can publically spout their theories online about how anything works, but when said theories make no sense, expect to be called on it.

Kitchen, heat, out, etc.

- Q

 

[Magistus]

I am sorry but I think this is wrong. The gods don't take aspects of the runes, it's the other way around the runes are taken from the aspects of the gods.

That's another way of looking at it, but then it doesn't explain sorcery or spirit magic the same way. Nor does it explain swapping Goddesses or changing myths. My way does.

Sorry don't have my books on hand, but one of the books clearly states that runes are pieces of the gods scattered all over the world.

As for sorcery and spirit magic runes have nothing to do with either form of magic. Sorcery is basically the will of the sorcer causing the effect of the spell. Spirit is the shaman using spirits to cause the efeect of the spell, neither has anything to do with runes.

 

[Pentallion]

Anyone can publically spout their theories online about how anything works, but when said theories make no sense, expect to be called on it.

Kitchen, heat, out, etc.

- Q

Actually, it only makes no sense to you. That's okay, no biggie. I'm not being "called" on anything because the system is quite well thought out and workable and I'd only need you to understand it if you were in my gaming group. Considering that by the time you unlocked those secrets it would make perfect sense, I'm not too worried about it.

But on this forum it's like engineers and technicians arguing over which way electrons flow, positive to negative or vice-versa. Runes to Gods or vice-versa. Everything depends upon how you wish to view them and what you wish to do with your campaign.

 

[simonh]

Yet Arkat did exactly that.

....And the fact remains that even after Arkat left each cult he could still cast the spells.

Who says? I don't see any reason to assume Arkat was immune to any of the same rules about that as any other character. He simply switched to a different religion when that religion offered him better resources to achieve his current objectives. He switched tools to suit the job at hand, that's all. As for the God Learners - They Were Wrong, so if they disagree this strengthens, not weakens my argument.

As for the moral and metaphysical truths, in Glorantha, there's little indication that any cult has any special claim to morality. Metaphysical truths are what we're dealing with here. Perhaps morality lies more in Draconic teachings, but that is one of those YGMV areas IMO.

Morality is relative to some extent yes, but the various religions do teach such truths and have proofs of them that yield real magic in Glorantha so you can't just cast that point aside, and I don't think their worshipers will either. Dragonists, being alien mystics, are likely to have very little to say about human morality.

 

[simonh]

That's another way of looking at it, but then it doesn't explain sorcery or spirit magic the same way. Nor does it explain swapping Goddesses or changing myths. My way does.

That's true, which means it is possible to engineer magical changes using this kind of analysis, but remember it turns out the God Learners were WRONG. The gods really are more fundamental than they assumed and can't be just decomposed into runic equations or whatever. Then at the end of the 2nd Age even such manipulations as the God Learners managed became impossible so even the veneer of feasibility this kind of analysis might have seemed to have in the 2nd Age is finally wiped away.

As for Sorcery and Spirit Magic, I'm sure sorcerers and shamans do use runic symbols in their magical inscriptions and incantations. They just don't use super-magical, integrable RUNES in the MRQ 'Rune Magic' sense.

 

[frogspawner]

If you're new to the game you may not be aware that having Runes as physical objects is a new-fangled Mongoose idea, which can cause problems. I recommend the following interpretations if you want to use the MRQ rules and keep Your Glorantha similar to previous incarnations:

- Lay members can learn spells of their cult's runes
- Initiates can also learn spells of associated cults' runes
- Runes are crystals of godly blood and are very rare
- If found, Runes are normally sacrificed to the gods (and disappear)
- Only Rune-Lords/Priests are deemed powerful enough to attune a Rune
- Attuned Runes are absorbed into the host's bloodstream, and re-crystalize/re-emerge only upon their death.
- Attuned Runes can be located via Divination by related cults - who usually send hit-squads on "Rune Quests" to get them....

Hope this helps. Have fun!

 

[Trifletraxor]

Interesting discussion!

I found the points about RuneLords quite interesting. However, in RQ3 divine magic had to be regained at a temple to the particular god, and those who left the religion had their divine magic turn one-use. Was RQ2 any different? I liked the hypothesis, but how do you make it fit in with the old rules Pentallion?

Concerning Arkat I haven't heard anything about him retaining the reusability of his divine magic. I thought it only was the powers gained from heroquesting he took with him. Is there anything published which hints either way?

...

Why do people say the god learners was wrong by the way? They did not succeed, but how were they WRONG? It could easily be said they lost a battle for power once the gods turned their full forces against them.

SGL.

 

[Rurik]

Why do people say the god learners was wrong by the way? They did not succeed, but how were they WRONG? It could easily be said they lost a battle for power once the gods turned their full forces against them.

I agree. Obviously they were on to something - their meddling worked after all. RuneQuest sight was able to see things about the makup of all the worlds others were not.

Maybe they were killed out because they were right, or discovered too much. It would not be the first time someone was silenced for discovering something that was not meant to be discovered.

 

[ninthcouncil]

If you're new to the game you may not be aware that having Runes as physical objects is a new-fangled Mongoose idea, which can cause problems. I recommend the following interpretations if you want to use the MRQ rules and keep Your Glorantha similar to previous incarnations:

- Lay members can learn spells of their cult's runes
- Initiates can also learn spells of associated cults' runes

It doesn't entirely solve the problem, though, as the runic associations of the cult spells do not line up very well with the runes possesssed by the cults.

For instance, the previously marginal Metal rune has suddenly become very desirable, owing to Bladesharp and Bludgeon depending on it. But no common cult has that rune...

Unfortunately, the Runic magic system seems to have been developed to put the "Rune" in Runequest for the generic rule system, and its interaction with existing Gloranthan conventions doesn't appear to have been very thoroughly thought out. Nor, indeed, was the question of the magical economy, given that possession of runes has become essential to spellcasting, a matter which affects Glorantha and generic MRQ alike.

I'm now convinced that "Rune Magic" simply can't work with Glorantha unless Runes are made as common as water, and that using spell daimons is probably the more sensible way to deal with the problem.

 

[Voriof]

Why do people say the god learners was wrong by the way? They did not succeed, but how were they WRONG? It could easily be said they lost a battle for power once the gods turned their full forces against them.

I agree. Obviously they were on to something - their meddling worked after all. RuneQuest sight was able to see things about the makup of all the worlds others were not.

Maybe they were killed out because they were right, or discovered too much. It would not be the first time someone was silenced for discovering something that was not meant to be discovered.

This has been discussed fairly extensively on the World of Glorantha site and many times over the years on Gloranthan listservers. Searching these lists will probably give you more discussion on these topics than you might ever wish.

In essence: The God Learners were wrong in what they did. Reality finally could not tolerate the abuses imposed on it and snapped back into its orginal configuration. The place crashed and rebooted - without the God Learner viruses.

Glorantha doesn't like being overclocked.

Jeff - who sholudn't be watching ReBoot at 2 am, as much as he likes the show

 

[Trifletraxor]

In essence: The God Learners were wrong in what they did. Reality finally could not tolerate the abuses imposed on it and snapped back into its orginal configuration. The place crashed and rebooted - without the God Learner viruses.

Sure, that's your computerized version of the story, based on the tales left by the victorious, which as we all know, are the ones to write history. Just as the God Learners, you may also be wrong... :shock:

(The Glorantha Digest is a horrible thing I've tried twice. I have no plan of asking the "experts" there anything in the near future, at least not until I again forget why I couldn't stand it.)

SGL.

SGL.

 

[Pentallion]

That's true, which means it is possible to engineer magical changes using this kind of analysis, but remember it turns out the God Learners were WRONG. The gods really are more fundamental than they assumed and can't be just decomposed into runic equations or whatever. Then at the end of the 2nd Age even such manipulations as the God Learners managed became impossible so even the veneer of feasibility this kind of analysis might have seemed to have in the 2nd Age is finally wiped away.

As for Sorcery and Spirit Magic, I'm sure sorcerers and shamans do use runic symbols in their magical inscriptions and incantations. They just don't use super-magical, integrable RUNES in the MRQ 'Rune Magic' sense.

Wrong? Their experiements proved them correct or they couldn't have pulled them off. They weren't WRONG, they just weren't WISE. They didn't foresee that the forces they were dealing with would strike back forcibly given enough tampering with the natural order of things.

Your use of the word wrong isn't being applied as a Correct Or Incorrect meaning, it's being applied as a Do the Right Thing or the Wrong Thing meaning.

They were CORRECT, they just didn't take into account the consequences of their actions and take the proper steps to avoid what ultimately happened. It could very well be there were no proper steps that could cause them to avoid their ultimate fate, but that has nothing to do with the FACT that they COULD switch Goddesses, change myths, alter the basic foundations.

Another point of proof that my analysis is correct is how Death was discovered. It wasn't created by the Gods. No God embodied the Death Rune. It is described as being DISCOVERED. ie, it existed independently of the Gods until the Gods incorporated it into them. Of course, it was Man who was the first to die so he then embodied the Death Rune. Note that he didn't die THEN we have the Death Rune, no. The Rune was discovered first and Man was tricked into using it and dying. Immortals couldn't do so without becoming Mortal. This was a new thing to the Gods.

The Death Rune granted the power of Mortality, not the Gods.

You can argue all you want to that the Runes derive their powers from the Gods but the facts support the opposite thesis.

 

[Pentallion]

Interesting discussion!

I found the points about RuneLords quite interesting. However, in RQ3 divine magic had to be regained at a temple to the particular god, and those who left the religion had their divine magic turn one-use. Was RQ2 any different? I liked the hypothesis, but how do you make it fit in with the old rules Pentallion?

Concerning Arkat I haven't heard anything about him retaining the reusability of his divine magic. I thought it only was the powers gained from heroquesting he took with him. Is there anything published which hints either way?

...

Why do people say the god learners was wrong by the way? They did not succeed, but how were they WRONG? It could easily be said they lost a battle for power once the gods turned their full forces against them.

SGL.

As for your first question, how do I make it fit with the rules, I pretty much went into those details in my original post. You can see my examples of how to apply the Runic system to Spirit Magic. I basically don't use the MRQ system at all. I stick with the old RQ system but tweak it by making it more Runic.

Then each character has to learn a skill in each Rune. Only upon Rune Mastery can he actually tatoo the Rune onto himself and call upon it's powers. Now, by this I don't mean he learns, say, the Water Rune and can cast spells using Water Runes. By Rune I mean more than that, I mean the combinations of Runes like Water and Mobility for Zola Fel. I count that as ONE Rune. Knowing and mastering that Rune would give him skills in Water and Mobility separately (I give them half their skill in each separate Rune of what they have in the Combined Rune.)

This solves a lot of problems such as the rarity and availability of magic. I never liked that everybody had all this spirit magic available. In my campaigns, I make it more rare. Of course, you needn't do this yourself and still use the Runes as I've described. I just feel that making the Runes themselves so rare makes them worht Questing for.

And it in no way changes either Spirit Magic or Sorcery or Divine Magic. But you can also make specialists more easily. For example, Telmori shamans would be very familiar with the Beast Rune therefore they would have access to spells that involved the Beast Rune. Sorcerors could specialize in areas of expertise around the Runes they understood the most. Illusion, Stasis, etc.

AS for Arkat keeping each cults spells, I'd have to go dig into those books again and look that up but I remember something somewhere that pretty much said that he still retained his powers of each cult even after having faced Retribution for leaving. If I can find that again, I'll post it.