Space Stations V1.2

[Grunvald]

It seems that the previous thread for Space Stations has been almost totally ignored!

It was MAJORLY commented on that under v1.1 the stations rules where totally broken and wasent even worth playtesting.

And now what has happened again, instead of limiting the number of hardpoint weaponry as was surgested all that has happened is the HP value of weaponry has gone up and the HP on the core stations has been increased a bit!

This still does not stop the abuse that will arrive from the current rules for Space Stations.

I really have to ask what is the point of making any surgestions and comments upon something when they seem to be totally ignored!

(also is it worth playtesting something that is so obviously still broken!)

The Space Station idea is on the whole a brilliant idea, but under the current "revised" rules (v1.2) they are still broke!

 

[Triggy]

I've mentioned on the main playtest thread and I'll repeat it here - there are two main points to bear in mind:

1) The rules are an evolution and most agree they are better but not right yet. We'll get there (eventually).

2) If you can categorically demonstrate the worst abuses through playtests then these are far more likely to be listened to than simple comments.

I will be spending more time on space station playtesting in the near future and frankly would like to see this section shine as it has the potential to add a huge amount to the game. If this takes a third public iteration (it's been through more than this privately and although still not right, it's improved every time) then I'd be more than happy to see it. With it being only one section, we could hopefully polish it off quicker with the rest finalised.

 

[Grunvald]

Have a read of this thread before any more comments are made and then see if it is still worth teating,

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36569&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Reasons why it the rules are still broke are still there and so it is STILL not worth teating!

Ideas and surgestions for repari and spent time on and the 2 things that seem to have happened are
1. Damage on main Core reduced. Needed to be done!
2. Guns HP cost increased. NOT fixed issue of too many guns!

Race specific weaponry and traits still not there, or races gettinf traits they shouldnt be!

 

[Da Boss]

Have to agree - the abuses are evident in a cursory glance by anyone with the slightest interest in the game.....

It is, to me, potentially the best thing in P+P (with the majority of the ship retcons) but as I imagine the printing date rapidly approaches its totally unplayable.

Thats the frustrating thing - this is the first reincarnation of the SS rules that has been remotely usable and its still way out. Can I ask WHY it need playtesting to fix the obvious flaws - once these have been done then the rules can be tested???

I would also argue that the abusive stations that I and others have created in other threads and posted are also "playtesting" since that is part of the rules being implemented and if its obviously broken before it even hits the table - well, I feel then we need to fix that process before any dice are rolled?

ok some more testing............

Narn "Bastion" Carrier base - Raid level
The Narn create defence stations to oulast any ship in an engagement and the bastion stations are the pincale of this. Able to launch clouds of fighters -They also are able to co-ordinate them and the fleet in battle to a degree unheard off by narn fleets

Hull 4,
Troops: 15,
Damage: 340 :roll:
Special: Antif-fighter 4, Command+1, Carrier 5, Fleet Carrier, Immobile, Interceptors 5, Scout,
Craft: 10 flights of Frazi fighters
weapons
Ion Cannon, 8 AD, 12" TL

HP (12) - 2 x hardened (4), Command, (3), 2 x Hanger (4), Ion Cannon (1)

or you could take the T'loth varient carrier????

it is hull 4 but you need to do nearly 200 points of dmaage before you even bring it down a threshold - challenging in say a 5pt raid game?

Not only is it a brick par excellence (as all stations will be) but it provides massively useful traits - often to races that do not normally have access to them - interceptors for all including Minbari, Shadows and Vorlons - all of whom can also purchase extra defences for instance.............

Can anyone say why Hardened is this cheap and is stackable............just one example.

 

[Grunvald]

Ok been reading through the new "review" of the playtest rules!

So far this are a few comments of what i see as TOTALLY pointless or completly broken etc.

What is the point of giving a Way Station (Patrol) a armour module, it now takes up all of its HP (now 2) so it can no longer have a potential small gun and something else!

Weapon HP pts increase: as stated before has not solved the problem of just placing GUNS on a station!

Abbi guns! most have been increase to 6HP's BUT Disruptor is still 1HP and a slightly longer range than some of the other guns (21"), with only 4AD and SAP it still far too powerful as reasoned in previous threrads!

"GUNS in general need to be sorted!"

Bio-Tech Module for Shadows and Vorlons: read previous Space Station thread on V1.1.... NUFF SAID!

Shields and Self reparing: read previous Space Station thread on V1.1.... NUFF SAID!

Race's having equpment on their stations that their Fleet ships dont have, pointless and stupid, Read previous thread!!!

On the whole a complete waste of time!

The only thing that has done any good is the reducing of the Core Stations Damage Points, the altering of their HP'S and increase in cost of weaponry a Complete and UTTER Waste of time.

It has not solved anything, i would go away and playtest, but what with DaBoss's comments and mine i can not see the point when it is still so obviously broke!

My best surgestion to the PTB is read the previous Space Station Thread and LISTEN to what has been said, Take on board what has been surgested, otherwise Space Stations are not going to been seen, AGAIN!!!

 

[Triggy]

Bloody hell, I knew a few things had changed about space stations since I made my last recommendations (about two months before the rules went public) but some of this is mad!

Compared to the v1.2 rules, damage levels still need to come down ( some by up to 50%), some weapons are still too easy to mount, and many of the other arguments still hold. I had assumed that space station rules were starting to come together but they're not even close at the moment. This is all not even considering whether each race is balanced to each other. At least the general mechanisms of purchasing the space station are fairly robust (well, I could think of some improvements but this is by the by).

I'm working on some "suggestions" that I'll post for download tomorrow.

 

[Grunvald]

All i can say to you Triggy is what would be the point!!!!

It is SO obvious that the PTB have not looked at the previous Space Station thread and taken onboad what was said so what makes us think that they would listen this time!

I have to say that it is so disheartening when something that could be made into something so brilliant is, for the most part if not all, being totally ignored and we the people who are being asked to "buy" the future product, ignored!

As to the core station damage points, i have seen that they have come down but again what is the point of testing them when the rest of the rules are broken!

 

[Da Boss]

Bloody hell, I knew a few things had changed about space stations since I made my last recommendations (about two months before the rules went public) but some of this is mad!

Compared to the v1.2 rules, damage levels still need to come down ( some by up to 50%), some weapons are still too easy to mount, and many of the other arguments still hold. I had assumed that space station rules were starting to come together but they're not even close at the moment. This is all not even considering whether each race is balanced to each other. At least the general mechanisms of purchasing the space station are fairly robust (well, I could think of some improvements but this is by the by).

I'm working on some "suggestions" that I'll post for download tomorrow.

Sooo kinda what we have all been saying since the P+P playtest rules came out :lol: :wink:

look forward to seeing the new incarnation

 

[Triggy]

Grunvald - it's not the point that you have been ignored deliberately (I hope), from my point of view I've just been focussing on pretty much every other aspect of the rules as space stations would have taken up loads of time that I don't have.

Da Boss - My final suggestion before v1.1 (I've just looked up those rules too) was a lot more toned down in damage already although the weapons still needed work (their balance was about right as it is now but stations could take too many systems, again as it is now). This is the biggest issue with customisable anything - most wargames don't scale up neatly at all, either defences or offences (or something else) has its effects multiplied as you take more rather than simply added. In the case of ACtA, almost every factor multiplies rather than adds!!! The only way to prevent abuse here is to make the sickest stations about even par for a priority level and the flexibility allowed is the benefit if you take other stations.

 

[Grunvald]

Grunvald - it's not the point that you have been ignored deliberately (I hope), from my point of view I've just been focussing on pretty much every other aspect of the rules as space stations would have taken up loads of time that I don't have.

I hope not but look at it from this side of the screen!

We got V1.1

We made a lot of surgestions and read and reread the rules and made more surgestions on how to improve them.

we WAITED for what seemed like forever

And what did we get..........!



But if you dont have the time to look at these rules, then someone else should be!

If you want use to go and write and amend them tell us and we will, but at the mo they seem to have been sat on the side and ignored (for the most part!).

 

[Da Boss]

Grunvald - it's not the point that you have been ignored deliberately (I hope), from my point of view I've just been focussing on pretty much every other aspect of the rules as space stations would have taken up loads of time that I don't have.

Da Boss - My final suggestion before v1.1 (I've just looked up those rules too) was a lot more toned down in damage already although the weapons still needed work (their balance was about right as it is now but stations could take too many systems, again as it is now). This is the biggest issue with customisable anything - most wargames don't scale up neatly at all, either defences or offences (or something else) has its effects multiplied as you take more rather than simply added. In the case of ACtA, almost every factor multiplies rather than adds!!! The only way to prevent abuse here is to make the sickest stations about even par for a priority level and the flexibility allowed is the benefit if you take other stations.

Triggy - myself and many others have been syaing this for some time - I don't know whether it was to much of a corus of disaprroval, it was the wrong voices or just unwanted views but it feels like we wasted a lot of time and effort?

Grunvald and others offered to rewrite the rules and try to sort out a balance but recevied neither encouragment or discouragement and it was presumed that this was something that was being looked at.

If no one had time to look at - people were happy to try and do the work here and work something up to assist / form a better basis than the present rules but it seemed to be unwanted?? We were conscious that we had been told recently it was "playtest" document not a design document but Its difficult to have a playtests document that contains something that is obviously unplayable but have the suggestion that the only way it will change is for testing - as you say none of us have the time to waste.......

 

[Triggy]

To be honest from my point of view, I never read a single post on any space station thread so I can't comment on any of it. I've almost finished a first run through of a revised space stations section that adjusts toughness, makes a few tweaks and balances weapons (although you'll all have to decide what goes next). I hope this version is a lot better than the current one.

 

[Triggy]

Right, my runthrough is complete for you to have a look at. I'm sure there are a few errors but hopefully this is a lot closer for playtesting. (any changes are picked out in red)

Are there any main areas that are fundamentally out of line? Are there any specifics that aren't balanced? Are there any things that are or aren't in there that should be?

Triggy's Space Stations

 

[Grunvald]

Some times it makes me wonder where some people come up with ideas from!

Ancient level stations for shadow and vorlon and then a "Planet Killer" module to boot.

All i can say to that is "FOOK!"

Now that i've picked my jaw up from off the floor and stopped drooling, would make PLaet killer armegedon only, otherwise youd get several stations with this ability moving around the place!


Katadder came up with this in the previous thread:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36569&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Adaptive Armour Module (Defensive Module) Varies
Using ancient vorlon arts this station is sheathed in living adaptive armour able to adapt to deflect most of the damage directed at it.

Each Adaptive Armouor Module will increase the Core’s Damage by +10/+5/+0. It will also add the adaptive armour trait. The Hardpoints of the Adaptive Armour Module will vary according to the Core it is being attached to; Way Station – 1 Hardpoints, Colony Station –2 Hardpoints, Border Station – 3 Hardpoints, Battle Station – 4 Hardpoints, Star Fortress – 5 Hardpoints.

And he also split the modules into Offensive, Defensive and Misc which i still think is a way to go to balance out the weapons problem

download link still up i think:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?aaaanaaawaa

This was thrown in for HP and weaponry:-

That was why i posted this earlier to eliminate having BIG guns on Tenny Tiny Stations!
Patrol level : 1 weapon module up to 2 HP worth
Skirmish level : 2 weapon modules up to 2 HP worth
Raid level : 3 weapon modules up to 2 HP worth
Battle level : 5 weapon modules up to 4 HP worth
War level : 6/7 weapon modules up to 4 HP worth

And this was for number of offensive modules/defensive modules:
Patrol : 1/2
Skirmish :2/2
Raid : 3/3
Battle : 5/4
War : 7/5

As well as me throwing these ideas for racial core stations :

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36569&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=download+space+station&start=120

With the removal of added damage points from the weapons i am now not sure if the cores need such a heavy drop in damage, when i get my printer working again i'll be able to read it all better.

All i can say is at least someones listening

 

[Grunvald]

PS

I know i'll get pasted for this again by my mates at the club if they read this but and immobile station cannot move once placed, so why can it be moved on the damage chart and not have a SA to right itself!

1" moved not needed and contradicts its own rules!

 

[Greg Smith]

One of the reasons the patrol level station was decreased to 3 hard points was to stop a patrol level station from carrying a patrol points worth of fighters. Of course this would have required fighters to be increased to 3HP, which didn't happen.

 

[Greg Smith]

I know i'll get pasted for this again by my mates at the club if they read this but and immobile station cannot move once placed, so why can it be moved on the damage chart and not have a SA to right itself!

1" moved not needed and contradicts its own rules!

It doesn't need to right itself - it repiars all crits at the end of the following turn.

 

[Grunvald]

I know i'll get pasted for this again by my mates at the club if they read this but and immobile station cannot move once placed, so why can it be moved on the damage chart and not have a SA to right itself!

1" moved not needed and contradicts its own rules!

It doesn't need to right itself - it repiars all crits at the end of the following turn.

being moved by 1" is not damage!

so it can nnot repair what isnt there!

and once again having it move in the 1st place goes totally against the main rule for what immobile states!

 

[Triggy]

Some times it makes me wonder where some people come up with ideas from!

Ancient level stations for shadow and vorlon and then a "Planet Killer" module to boot.

All i can say to that is "FOOK!"

Now that i've picked my jaw up from off the floor and stopped drooling, would make PLaet killer armegedon only, otherwise youd get several stations with this ability moving around the place!


Katadder came up with this in the previous thread:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36569&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Adaptive Armour Module (Defensive Module) Varies
Using ancient vorlon arts this station is sheathed in living adaptive armour able to adapt to deflect most of the damage directed at it.

Each Adaptive Armouor Module will increase the Core’s Damage by +10/+5/+0. It will also add the adaptive armour trait. The Hardpoints of the Adaptive Armour Module will vary according to the Core it is being attached to; Way Station – 1 Hardpoints, Colony Station –2 Hardpoints, Border Station – 3 Hardpoints, Battle Station – 4 Hardpoints, Star Fortress – 5 Hardpoints.

And he also split the modules into Offensive, Defensive and Misc which i still think is a way to go to balance out the weapons problem

download link still up i think:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?aaaanaaawaa

This was thrown in for HP and weaponry:-

That was why i posted this earlier to eliminate having BIG guns on Tenny Tiny Stations!
Patrol level : 1 weapon module up to 2 HP worth
Skirmish level : 2 weapon modules up to 2 HP worth
Raid level : 3 weapon modules up to 2 HP worth
Battle level : 5 weapon modules up to 4 HP worth
War level : 6/7 weapon modules up to 4 HP worth

And this was for number of offensive modules/defensive modules:
Patrol : 1/2
Skirmish :2/2
Raid : 3/3
Battle : 5/4
War : 7/5

As well as me throwing these ideas for racial core stations :

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36569&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=download+space+station&start=120

With the removal of added damage points from the weapons i am now not sure if the cores need such a heavy drop in damage, when i get my printer working again i'll be able to read it all better.

All i can say is at least someones listening

The Shadow and Vorlon stuff along with Planet Killers and Armageddon PL stations is all for fun and can just as easily be removed if needed but I like the concept at least. BTW, I can't tell but are you for or against them by saying "FOOK"?

katadder's method of adaptive armour is more complicated but would probably work in principle. They'd need to be a lot more expensive than that at the high end though. The method I suggested has the benefit of not being worth it if you take just a few modules but if you take a lot then as their damage isn't halved then that's where you get the real benefit. I could go for either or none as it doesn't really affect the balance of the stations one way or the other.

You could limit the weapons in that way (and I'm not averse to it), and here's another suggestion just to throw it into the mix: Any weapons module can only be taken twice (or three times) by any space station. You may take different weapons modules but not further copies of the same weapon type. With the costs of the larger weapons this would limit their numbers anyway.

The easiest way to classify offensive modules is just to say that they are the ones with weapons stats on them.

So long as you don't have any stupid modules like the v1.2 Narn hard point module then having difficult to kill stations isn't actually a problem. Stations (or for that matter, any ship) with too many guns is still a problem.

Fighters - I've upped their costs to more accurately reflect their value. They could each even stand to be increased by a further hard point if needed. Currently stations can just afford fighters worth the same PL as they come from. The advantages are that these fighters don't give away VPs. The disadvantages are that the stations have no guns (and can give away VPs and are not very tough to boot) and that the fighters have to be launched as they won't all start on the board.

Can anyone build a station that is obviously overpowered at this moment, either with or without a restriction on the number of weapons systems? Are all stations obviously underpowered?

 

[Greg Smith]

Fighters - I've upped their costs to more accurately reflect their value. They could each even stand to be increased by a further hard point if needed. Currently stations can just afford fighters worth the same PL as they come from. The advantages are that these fighters don't give away VPs. The disadvantages are that the stations have no guns (and can give away VPs and are not very tough to boot) and that the fighters have to be launched as they won't all start on the board.

So a patrol level station, with 4 flights of thunderbolts, and 30 damage which can launch them in one turn is worth the same as 4 flights of thunderbolts.

30 points of damage in a patrol level game is actually quite tough.

The point is you are actually getting more for the same cost. And with certain races you can get more still.