I keep reading the rules for space combat again and again, but I still can not figure out the precise order in which everything occurs. Does a flowchart of space combat exist? If not, then how does Manoeuvre phase work? In what order are the individual parts of an attack declared and resolved (Fire Control, dodging, firing sand etc.)?
Space Combat Flowchart
- Thread starter Sevain
- Start date
CaptainOrs
Mongoose
F33D said:
How does your system work F33d?
Balfuset790
Mongoose
F33D said:
Whilst from a realism perspective I understand where you're coming from - lasers will impact with a ship at the speed of light, faster than a sandcaster operator can react - we also ignore the relative velocities of the vessels in question for the sake of streamlining ship-to-ship combat. If you require an operator to pre-emptively fire sand then the question becomes how far the ship moves between the firing of sand and the laser fire, and has the opposing vessel moved to an angle outside of the sand clouds coverage.
Having the reactions occur after the attack means that ship combat feels similar to personal combat, where you declare a dodge after someone attacks you. The systems are different but the sequence of events is teh same so you're not having to move between two separate mindsets between the two systems.
You could, also, imagine it as being that sand is fired after you get a weapons lock warning, or indication that the enemy has a targetting solution and the attack occurs after, even if rolled for beforehand.
A
Anonymous
Guest
simonh said:
Simon
The link 404'd
Is there another?
Balfuset790
Mongoose
hiro said:
Fortuantely it's archived on Freelance Traveller: http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/columns/t5i/shipcombat.html
Balfuset790
Mongoose
F33D said:
What I was getting at was that it was a simplification and an abstraction in order to aid gameplay. That's all, it may not be 'realistic' but if the game were 100% realistic the rules would be so needlessly complex as to be unplayable.
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Exactly. The combat actions listed in the book are there for role-players to make use of or not. There are a number of minutes that go by in each round for this reason. It helps if all the players know what their ship and the one they are fighting are capable of. Otherwise, the Referee has to do all of the work, if played like a board or video game.Balfuset790 said:
F33D said:
So you assume that lasers deliver their energy instantaneously, even though it would seem more logical to assume they have to "hold the burn" in place for a reasonable amount of time, with the damage roll simulating how well they can keep the beam on target?
Lasers aren't like bullets. Well, possibly pulse lasers are, but you can still generally see them coming as they converge on your ship's location.
F33D said:
Maybe Traveller laser canons have perfect coherency across light-second ranges with no additional heat radiated from the weapon mount, or maybe they don't. But even if you can't detect a fired laser unless it hits you, laser light splashing against your hull is going to disperse, as well as generate heat, as you mention.
We have laser detectors today on our tanks (used to detect targeting lasers), so it's not crazy to imagine that starships also know when they're being hit by lasers the instant the beams hit. Sandcasters reduce damage by 1d6, not prevent it.
Why is it hard to imagine that a laser detector could direct sandcasters to intercept the beam before it does any more damage?
From a rules perspective, sure, it's possible the sandcaster roll will exceed the damage roll, simulating a very prompt response, but it's also possible that it will merely reduce the damage.
Detecting a laser before it strikes doesn't make much real-world sense, then again this is a game we are talking about.
But, assuming you had a very, very short window that a laser strike was inbound. Your detectors work on the light speed principle, so the alert traveling to your gunner would be at the same speed. If you deploy sand automatically that shortens the time frame, but if there is a human who makes a decision and presses a button, well, by then the strike should already have either hit or missed.
But assuming it's automatic, another light speed signal has to travel to the launcher, which then ejects (mechanically or otherwise) the sand cannister, which then travels at a speed much less than light speed. The cannister explodes/detonates/spreads the sand somehow and that, too, is moving at much less than light speed. This means you have to detect the incoming strike seconds before it arrives - pretty good for something that has to work in the same physical universe as the ship firing it's lasers and trying to pinpoint where the target is going to be when the lasers arrive.
A better rule would simply be to have the player make a determination at the beginning of the phase whether or not they were going to deploy countermeasures (i.e. sand) and then deploy it.
Then again, it's a game, so a lot can be forgiven.
But, assuming you had a very, very short window that a laser strike was inbound. Your detectors work on the light speed principle, so the alert traveling to your gunner would be at the same speed. If you deploy sand automatically that shortens the time frame, but if there is a human who makes a decision and presses a button, well, by then the strike should already have either hit or missed.
But assuming it's automatic, another light speed signal has to travel to the launcher, which then ejects (mechanically or otherwise) the sand cannister, which then travels at a speed much less than light speed. The cannister explodes/detonates/spreads the sand somehow and that, too, is moving at much less than light speed. This means you have to detect the incoming strike seconds before it arrives - pretty good for something that has to work in the same physical universe as the ship firing it's lasers and trying to pinpoint where the target is going to be when the lasers arrive.
A better rule would simply be to have the player make a determination at the beginning of the phase whether or not they were going to deploy countermeasures (i.e. sand) and then deploy it.
Then again, it's a game, so a lot can be forgiven.
phavoc said:
Maybe I'm the only one who believes this, but I do not see lasers as instantaneous weapons.
To burn through a starship hull (which you'll recall is quite resilient), that laser may be spending a significant period of time on target, either burning a single spot or peppering the same location with pulses. We're not talking about a single "blaster" or "phaser" shots here.
In fact, it's plausible that the weapons spend the entire combat round firing in order to create their effect, with the player's gunnery roll just being a convenient time to "sample" how much damage the guns are doing as they attempt to hold their energy beam on a small enough part of the ship to cause damage. (That's what the damage roll is for.)
Personally, I'm in favor of the CT rule that sand is launched preemptively, and creates "cover" in space rather than damage reduction. But I don't think the Mongoose sandcaster rule is as indefensible as apparently everyone else does.
But if you believe lasers go "pew! pew!" and then cool off or recharge the rest of the round, then yeah, sandcaster reactions make no sense at all.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Everyone seems to believe lasers instantly disintegrate what they hit which would only be true with relatively soft and thin objects. I remember years (decades?) with the Star Wars defense proposal to use a laser system and one counter measure offered was putting a spin on incoming targets. Reason was a laser needs to have time at one spot to burn through and the missile would not need any armor. If your beam weapon in Traveller acts like a real world laser then you get a game mechanics worth to detect and counter with Sandcasters. It's not perfect but it's a game.
That would also explain laser detectors and prismatics vs. laser weapons in Striker and The Vehicle Handbook too. Laser hits and begins to burn. Poof, a cloud of aerosol or smoke to disperse the beam. I believe this is why a pulse laser isn't affected by sand while other high energy weapons burn through sand on the way to a target.
That would also explain laser detectors and prismatics vs. laser weapons in Striker and The Vehicle Handbook too. Laser hits and begins to burn. Poof, a cloud of aerosol or smoke to disperse the beam. I believe this is why a pulse laser isn't affected by sand while other high energy weapons burn through sand on the way to a target.
