Sorcery

[Dead Blue Clown]

I think the order the books have been coming out could have been better.I consider both the cults 2 book, with its rules on shaman, and the Players guide with its folk magic more important then , say Legendary Heros and the Magic of Glorantha. I mean players are going to be casting folk magic spells and dealing with shaman long befor they start leading armies against the Clanking City.

Yes and no.

Bear in mind that your view of Glorantha might not reflect others', especially given the fact it's the Second Age. A lot of new players especially will probably be playing God Learners and Dragonspeakers as the 'base' characters, since the Second Age is largely about them. That's why Magic of Glorantha, f'rex, is a book about their magic, and not the magic of all the other cultures that veteran RQ fans are used to.

Folk Magic means less than nothing to me, for example. In a game focused on my players' efforts as Dragonspeakers to defend conquered Orlanthi communities from God Learner agents and other local threats, they deal principally with Dragon Magic, Rune Magic and Sorcery. Admittedly a lot of the reaction I've seen here and there has many RQ vets seeing the two empires as enemies to be fought (which is cool, sure) but I'm willing to wager that most new players and more than a few vets will be playing them; and as the major factions of the setting, they needed their magic done very early. The magic of the main factions is unarguably more important than lesser cultures' tricks.

Clanking City is, however, very specialised - but no moreso than any city sourcebook and note that it's not coming out before those other books you mentioned - it's coming out afterwards. Note also that the types of games set there aren't going to be limited to attacking the place just because it's a hellhole of Gloranthan myth. Much like any city supplement, the sourcebook is about setting games there, detailing the social, magical and physical goings on that you can get up to.

That pretty much clarifies it for me - Power-Gamers. I supose in this age of MMORPG's, traditional RPG's are way too booring. Why bother dealing with rules, books, trying to figure out when is a good tme for everyone to meet etc. With puter games, everyone can play, whenever you want, and actually see the stuff. It must be a tough industry to try to compete with this media...

I see Glorantha as 50 % barbaric/rural, 20 % nomadic, 10 % tribal/primitive, and 20 % civilised/urban.

In my experience, for short games, sure, play that god-blasting hero, that has 20 different artifacts from slain deities. But for the majority of hard core roleplayers, its the finer points of a systems basic components that make a great campaign.

Starting out as a peasant, with a rusty sword from a battlefield has alot more gamming potential than say a hero class character decked out with redicilous amounts of magic and abilities. One of the most memorable rewards that the players thought was the best ever, was when the people of a village they saved, hired a scupltor and had a statue of the leader of the group errected in their town square, as memory for the deeds they performed. I was floored myself...but since that time, every game I'd run, the new groups would end up hearing the legends and deeds of their past characters recited - and glorified, to mystical proportions.

We dont need books that shatter worlds to have fun playing a game. What we do need, is a solid, basic foundation, so we know what to build upon. Thats whats starting to irritate me with this system. Sorry, but thats just the way I feel. Even D&D fleshed out all of their basics, before creating God-Worlds...

Q...

You convince me, more and more with each sentence, that you're missing the point and harping on about One True Wayism. Look at that sentence of yours I bolded.

No, we don't need books that do that to have fun. However, the Second Age is largely about empires that did - in the literal sense of the words - shatter worlds. They needed rules. That's all there is to it. You don't like them, and you care nothing for the cultures. But other people will. Other people do. Other people play them, and since the Second Age has the GLs and the EWF in such a prominent position, it would be retarded beyond belief to ignore them.

Look, we're talking past each other here. You're missing the points I'm making by some degree of mileage, and I'm betting most folks here can see that plain as day. And as for your points, they're overly hostile and often irrelevant. Yes, you enjoy a certain playstyle. Yes, you were expecting Magic of Glorantha to reinforce the cultures in Glorantha you prefer.

Well, this might be pole-axing news, old horse, but other people prefer different play styles, and their way is neither inferior or superior to yours, and vice versa. Additionally, I chose to write about the magic types that are prevalent in the Second Age and that hadn't been presented before, since they are vastly more common in the current setting than the previous books made clear. Even after 4 RQ books and 2 Glorantha books, there was still nothing dealing comprehensively with the two empires. You don't care about them and have made it clear they're not what interests you. Well, they're a huge chunk of the Second Age, so ignoring them would be dumb.

You like it your way. Other people like it their way. I like it my way. Drop this irritating "You have to play games like this to be correct" stuff, because One Tru Wayism has long been one of the most ridiculous expressions of faux-superiority in onlne RPG discussion.

I get that you like starting off small and building up to the heroic. So do I, as a general rule. But the Second Age needed rules to present the powers of the dominant cultures. They'd never been presented in previous editions of the game, and they are essential to the people who 'dare' play the game with a different culture to yours.

Enough, okay? I'm not doing this anymore. There's no point in writing all this if you're going to keep misunderstanding it or ignoring it completely.

 

[Banned Beetle]

You like it your way. Other people like it their way. I like it my way. Drop this irritating "You have to play games like this to be correct" stuff, because One Tru Wayism has long been one of the most ridiculous expressions of faux-superiority in onlne RPG discussion.

The skill of the acid pen! 8)

 

[Quintus]

Good enough. Now tell me this though.

How do I roll up a Godlearner Wizard?
Where are the rules for that?
What skills do I start with?
What spells do my teachers teach me?
Palsy you say. No, I want Firebolt. Oops, cant learn sorcery spells at start. Pick a Rune ... so is that what makes them different from playing a Shaman, or a Priest?

THATS ALL I'M SAYING...you never, ever, ever addressed HOW...

And on top of it...for all this, you give us NPC...WITH NO STATS...WTH.???

Ever see an NPC outlines in any other game without Stat lines...?

Thats my whole point - you put fluff in front of usefull stuff. That is all...

Peace man...or dude, or Sir, whichever title you prefer: I care not.

Q...

 

[Banned Beetle]

Peace man...or dude, or Sir, whichever title you prefer: I care not.

Q...

Aiii!!! We'll soon have ourself a Banned Roman!

 

[Quintus]

Easiest thing to do...just speaking my mind. But what should I have expected from the people who have an emotional attachement to their work? Definately nothing that in any way criticises their work - I can understand that. That I do'nt like it, nor "understand" it (it seems beyond the metaphysical rules that govern the laws of the heroplanes after all...that made me laugh - no physical or physics in this world, but definately there in the heroplanes...since the badguys broke the Metaphysical rules...that means that there is such a thing as matter, and gravity in the heroplane?)

Anyway, can't wait to see the faces of my players when I unleash a Lightning Bolt spell, at 5 meter (15 feet) diameter, at a magnitude of 5 d4...on all of them and their hirelings - for 3 magic points, three times in a single combat round - and all I need is a Wizard that has 3 scores at 41%. Teleport and Cast that spell at the same time...Wow...Neat....hope they never piss off a wizard, or have a rune he wants...lol

I bet I could create a starting character with those kinds of skills...2 spells, 2 skills...hmmm

Q...

 

[duncan_disorderly]

And on top of it...for all this, you give us NPC...WITH NO STATS...WTH.???

...

...and long may it continue. By far the best bits of MRQ so far have been the bits without any rules involved....

 

[soltakss]

Although I like stats for NPCs, there is a limit. RPGs have always had descriptions of major NPCs, to give a flavour of the campaign and to allow hooks to develop. There is no need for stats for Delecti unless you are planning to go toe-to-toe with him.

(HeroQuest, of course, is different - we need those stats because the Hero Wars entail going toe-to-toe with the major characters, but that's a different forum and an old thread.)

As for the comments on runic vs sorcery vs divine vs whatever, I would have preferred the shamanism rules to have been brought out sooner, as I like shamans and think that a lot of cultures are shamanic, both Gloranthan and not. Also, it would have made sense to bring out professions or character generation rules for sorcery at the same time as introducing the sorcery system, i.e. in RQ Comapnion. The fact they didn't is a major oversight/flaw, in my opinion.

Saying that sorcery or runic magic overpowers other systems is pretty irrelevant. Each of the magic systems overpowers the others in some way.

All the current magic systems entail the development of high skills, Spellcasting with Runic Magic, Lore (Specific Theology) with Divine Magic, Spell Cast and Manipulations with Sorcery and Draconic Philosophy with the EWF.

However, Divine Magic and Runic Magic also require you to spend POW, which you get back with Divine Magic. Sorcery and Dragon Magic do not require POW, which might give them the edge, but Dragonmasters don't use their abilities. Sorceres aren't constrained at all, whch might be unbalancing, but the game is set in a period where the Middle Sea Empire is an unbalancing influence.

If you don't play in Glorantha, then sorcery has the potential to be more powerful than anything else, but that's what sorcery tends to do.

So, I don't think the game is particularly unbalanced regarding magic use.

It would have been better, in my opinion, to have all the magical systems in one book, so one for the core magic (Runic, Divine, Sorcery, Shamanism) and then expand them by setting, with a book for Gloranthan variants, another for Lhankmar and so on. Then expend the cults/schools/extra magic in following books.

But, that's not the way they did it, so it's not worth carping on about it.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

...another for Lhankmar and so on.

All good points and interesting to boot, though I'd note that a Magic of Lankhmar book would be about 6 pages long.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

...another for Lhankmar and so on.

All good points and interesting to boot, though I'd note that a Magic of Lankhmar book would be about 6 pages long.

But Mongoose would still stick a hard cover on it...

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

...another for Lhankmar and so on.

All good points and interesting to boot, though I'd note that a Magic of Lankhmar book would be about 6 pages long.

But Mongoose would still stick a hard cover on it...

Touche', sir!

 

[TRose]

first I would like to say I am happy with the quality of stuff that comes out.
But why I am waiting for the Shaman rules to come out. I have a more liberal view on how common Shaman are, and you can even find them even in civilized areas. Its just that in civilized areas people dont think of them as a shaman. In almost every village among the peasants you can find some crazy hermit or wise woman who knows alot about healing herbs, charms and other such thing.Your local Lord might scoff at the idea that Old Gils or the Widow Jones is a Shaman using magic similiar to that of heathen savages but only know that they are good at healing the peasants and there livestock when they get sick, and as long as they dont cause trouble and pay their taxes, well they are useful members of his realm ,so why go looking for trouble. and they are often the first source of healing for beginning adventourers since they tend to work fairly cheap, often asking that they help the village in some way instead of asking for gold.

 

[ninthcouncil]

...another for Lhankmar and so on.

All good points and interesting to boot, though I'd note that a Magic of Lankhmar book would be about 6 pages long.

But Mongoose would still stick a hard cover on it...

I thought that but didn't say it... :lol:

But why I am waiting for the Shaman rules to come out. I have a more liberal view on how common Shaman are, and you can even find them even in civilized areas.

A very good point. Even at the height of Korean Confucian conservatism, for instance, there were still female practitioners continuing with the native animist tradition. Of course the male heads of aristocratic households looked down on such things, but it didn't stop their wives sneaking the shamanesses in to help with childbirth and the like...

I'm looking forward to seeing how shamanism is handled as well.

 

[Rurik]

OK. I've read the section that set Quintus off regarding GL Sorcery.

It says that GL's can use all Rune Magic spells and most divine spells and apply sorcery skills to them.

Then it goes on to say that every Rune Spell in the Core can be considered to have a sorcery equivelent. It does NOT say we can assume the same about Divine Spells.

What is not clear to me is how GL's are supposed to apply manipulation to divine spells (if they are intended to at all - but I suspect they are)? Do they have to 'steal' them through heroquesting? Or can some of them actually belong to cults and remain sorcerers? Are these cults in Cults 2?

Divine Magic has always been power granted directly from a God, not a learned spell per se, so I would assume most gods would NOT grant spells to GL thieving bastards.

Or is the intent of the rules to say pretty much that anything that can be done in divine magic can be done with sorcery, and similar spells should be created at the same magnitude, and if so do you apply the 2 to 1 relative magnitude of divine spells (that it takes 2 sorcery magnitudes to equal one divine magnitude)?

 

[Quintus]

OK. I've read the section that set Quintus off regarding GL Sorcery.

It says that GL's can use all Rune Magic spells and most divine spells and apply sorcery skills to them.

Then it goes on to say that every Rune Spell in the Core can be considered to have a sorcery equivelent. It does NOT say we can assume the same about Divine Spells.

What is not clear to me is how GL's are supposed to apply manipulation to divine spells (if they are intended to at all - but I suspect they are)? Do they have to 'steal' them through heroquesting? Or can some of them actually belong to cults and remain sorcerers? Are these cults in Cults 2?

Divine Magic has always been power granted directly from a God, not a learned spell per se, so I would assume most gods would NOT grant spells to GL thieving bastards.

Or is the intent of the rules to say pretty much that anything that can be done in divine magic can be done with sorcery, and similar spells should be created at the same magnitude, and if so do you apply the 2 to 1 relative magnitude of divine spells (that it takes 2 sorcery magnitudes to equal one divine magnitude)?

THANK YOU...!!!!!

Exactly my point. That rule turns everything into a huge quagmire. Sorcery Spells are pathetic...the ones in the Companion anyway. Now come the Godlearners. They not only get a real damage spell (Flamebolt) but have access to all spells.

No mentioning how, why, what to do with Range, Magnitude, etc. And no mentioning at all about how to create a Wizard...Godlearner or otherwise.

IF Godlearners can learn all those spells, and manipulate them as they do...wow. I'd hate to see what happens when 10 mages combine their power to cast a spell - if that is the intent...why even bother plaing in this age? Players are too powerful, and NPC's are too powerfull for players to deal with. To ignore them, and not use them..may as well not play in this age...

Q...

 

[weasel_fierce]

Im pretty sure that the crazy god learner stuff is not stuff you start out with. its stuff that takes years and years of research and refinement to acquire.

Your ordinary street level guy learns sorcery by the normal rules, by learning it as advanced skills, as you advance the character.

Im not sure what the difficulty is.

There's a million things people can do in Glorantha that doesnt involve "kill the wizard" or any similar D&D rip-off's.

 

[richaje]

IF Godlearners can learn all those spells, and manipulate them as they do...wow. I'd hate to see what happens when 10 mages combine their power to cast a spell - if that is the intent...why even bother plaing in this age? Players are too powerful, and NPC's are too powerfull for players to deal with. To ignore them, and not use them..may as well not play in this age...

A wizard of one of the God Learner orders or schools are tremendously powerful (matched only by the great draconic mystics of the EWF). They frankly are too powerful for anyone in Glorantha to deal with - until Glorantha itself begins to rebel against the God Learners (and the Great Dragon Project). The Zistorites get the shock of their life when the Old Way Traditionalists summon events their magic proves useless against - and it goes downhill from there. The Goddess Switch causes hunger and revolts. At some point the magic changes - and the rules change will change for the God Learners. And the Closing happens. And at some point the God Learners find themselves bereft of power and hated by everyone. That's why you play in the late Second Age!

Basically the God Learners and the EWF start in positions of unparalleled mastery (although the cracks are beginning to appear). Within 150 years, both empires are utterly gone.

Jeff

 

[Deleriad]

I haven't read MoG yet. Partly because I saw it in the game shop but realised I was not going to pay 15quid for a 96 page book no matter how pretty so it's waiting for PDF for me.

As I understand it, the premise is that the God Learners have managed to hack Rune Magic and Divine Magic and create sorcery out of it. It's a neat premise and I like it. However, as I also understand it, there are either no or minimal rules about it in MoG. Now, no rules is fine. If it says, this is what the God Learners have done but you need to wait to discover the game engine in a different book (or make up your own) then fine. If on the other hand, it gives some partial rules but doesn't properly spell them out then that is a problem because it risks putting players and GMs into conflict.

There is another issue if the rules deliberately imbalance God Learner magic in that it can risk making the game no fun. RPGs are games and a lot of players don't like unbalanced games. A game with an all-powerful GL sorceror would not be that popular among players I know. (You can have inequal balances - for example Ars Magica deliberately unbalances but gives the different types of characters fulfilling roles.) That said, I don't see why you can't have a basically balanced system. For example, if someone said to me, design GL magic that players can use, using the premise above I would think roughly.

1) Acquiring a GL spell is difficult, costing several Improvement rules and or hero points as it is a fundamental breaking of the "nature of things". Thus a starting GL PC sorceror would be weak compared to other PCs and would need to specialise intensely.
2) I would design a game engine which allows you to apply Sorcery arts to Rune Magic; fairly simple. Most Rune Magic is copied at a weaker level by sorcery anyway.
3) I would say that GL hacks of Divine Magic are ways of copying specific divine magic spells but that it takes even more of a sacrific to hack a divine spell and maybe not allow GL sorcerors to add magnitude to a non-progressive spell.
4) I would make GL magic highly MP intensive. E.g. each point of hacked Divine Magic might cost 5 MPs, each point of hacked Rune Magic might cost 2 MPs. GL sorcerors would then depend crucially on MP matrices and other technologies. Break the GL technology and the sorceror is suddenly piteously helpless. Of course, GL sorcerors know that their technology is unbreakable...
5) Finally I would add a "doom counter" to this hacked magic that represents the natural world's abhorrence of GL magic. It's something that the GL sorcerors are in denial of. Call it Warp Points or something. The more Warp Points a GL sorceror accrues, the more bad things start to happen.

Basically, it is, it seems to me, perfectly possible to balance GL magic in Glorantha. The problem seems to be that the mechanics haven't been spelled out. That said, I have yet to read the section in detail so I could be spectacularly wrong.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Or is the intent of the rules to say pretty much that anything that can be done in divine magic can be done with sorcery, and similar spells should be created at the same magnitude, and if so do you apply the 2 to 1 relative magnitude of divine spells (that it takes 2 sorcery magnitudes to equal one divine magnitude)?

That's what I do. It works really well so far.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I think the issue at hand is one of expectation. Runequest and Glorantha doesnt presume that everything is equal and balanced to a "can kill the same number of orcs each turn", in the way of, say, D&D. Its more concerned with "this is how the world works".

If you come with the expectation of D&D dungeon-kill setups, then things will look very askew.

 

[Quintus]

Im pretty sure that the crazy god learner stuff is not stuff you start out with. its stuff that takes years and years of research and refinement to acquire.

Your ordinary street level guy learns sorcery by the normal rules, by learning it as advanced skills, as you advance the character.

Im not sure what the difficulty is.

There's a million things people can do in Glorantha that doesnt involve "kill the wizard" or any similar D&D rip-off's.

I know all that

But it really, really, really helps to have an idea of what your suposed to do. Either let the player wizard start with Runes...or, like in the old runequest, with some actual wizardry skills. I believe it was a gross oversight...put out some rules, a PDF, something.

Same for Priests. Give us a reason to play something other than Godleaners or Dragoncasters.

The Wizard art of casting is from books. It sais so! Study, read, learn. Not runes...runes are like a minor form of divine magic, since gods are tied to major runes, and lesser runes are the blood of the gods. So, that makes Sorcery completly different - but it is not. It taps into the magic lay lines from the Runes....thats why I cannot fathom WHY they rules of magic are so different from Rune Magic...EVERYTHING...I mean even the air, comes from Runemagic. And they have rules...otherwise the whole place would be a sea of Chaos...so it must have rules. If you break them, as you say the godlearners did, then they still must have a base, a rule, that can be broken. So what are the rules? But lets start from the first step:

Step 1

How to make a Wizard Character...

Step 2

How to use Sorcery Skills with Rune and Divine Magic...

Step 3

Why play anything but a Godlearner...I can use all spells, more powerfull, more distructive, more range, no POW sacrifice etc...

Q...

PS: I'm seeing these Godlearners as worse than the Nazies...is that what you intended?