Sorcery

[Quintus]

I was sorely disapointed with the Magic of Glorantha book. Still no answer on how to create proper Wizards! No mentioning about the learning process, the evolution of magic and spells, and no more Spell-casting character classes (illusionist, necromancer, hedge-wizard or whatever...)

I really dont like fudging things unless I know the whole system, and how everything works. If you make a rule that benefits the players, they'll never wana give it back up. And here is my gripe...

I read in the book that "ANY" spell may be used as a Sorcery Spell (Or "just" about any...what a cop-out on Mongooses part, for not declaring "which" ones...either list them, or say ALL.)

So, now I have a beginning level wizard, that has Manipulation for Intensity up to 5...with the divine Lightning Spell!!!

So what happens? For 1 magic point, he can cast a 5d4 spell, at targets up to who knows how far, multiple ones I may add. I just dont see how that compares to a Disruption, Firebolt, or Palsy spell...and the lightning ignores armor. Ok, so it can be dodged, but duhh...who can dodge at these beginning levels?

Q...

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

I was sorely disapointed with the Magic of Glorantha book. Still no answer on how to create proper Wizards! No mentioning about the learning process, the evolution of magic and spells, and no more Spell-casting character classes (illusionist, necromancer, hedge-wizard or whatever...)

When I was told I get to talk about the magical powers of the God Learners and the Dragonlords of the Imperial Age, spending word count on 'Classes' was the last thing on my mind. Sorry, dude. And as for the Sorcery learning process, well... I'm a good writer, but I'm not sure I can spin out "You read a lot of books" into anything much more interesting over several dozen pages.

I'm sorry the book wasn't about what you expected it would be, but in detailing HeroQuesting, a few God Learner Sorcery tweaks and the magic-based society of the EWF and how their magic system works (and they needed the space, since Sorcery was already covered in the Companion) throwing up some extra classes was never going to be on the cards. In fact, it never even occurred to me until this thread.

RQ isn't as dependent on notions of class as some other game systems. Your Cultural Background and Profession only really mean what you did before you started adventuring. Take Fafhrd, for example. The guy is a bard from the Cold Waste (or a skald, if you prefer). In the books he becomes a Lankhmart thief and a warrior, but his character sheet still says Barbarian Bard and not Urban Fighter.

You're not defined by your 'class', essentially. Spending word count on how many Skills and SPs a 'necromancer' starts with - and loads of other barely-different classes) really would've been a waste of word count. At least in my eyes. There's also the fact that it probably would've been D&D'ing things up to the Nth degree.

Also, might I ask what you mean by "the evolution of magic and spells?"

I read in the book that "ANY" spell may be used as a Sorcery Spell (Or "just" about any...what a cop-out on Mongooses part, for not declaring "which" ones...either list them, or say ALL.)

List every single spell that can be used in Sorcery? Uh, yeah. There's not quiiiiite enough paper on Earth for that. Common sense applies here, guy. Sorcery can do most anything that the other magic types can do. There will be one or two spells it can't do, but overall, it'll be able to do most anything any other magic type can do. I listed some examples in the book, and the Companion already had a bunch. It's as simple as that.

So what happens? For 1 magic point, he can cast a 5d4 spell, at targets up to who knows how far, multiple ones I may add. I just dont see how that compares to a Disruption, Firebolt, or Palsy spell...and the lightning ignores armor. Ok, so it can be dodged, but duhh...who can dodge at these beginning levels?

The God Learners aren't balanced. That's pretty much the point. It's even in a sidebar. Sorcery itself is insanely powerful. That, too, is the point. That's why it takes so long to learn compared to, say, just picking up a rune and going to town. You can do all that jazz, sure, but it takes a lot of Skills to do it reliably or well. A lot. Therein lies what game balance should ever be applied to the God Learners.

As far as Glorantha goes, it's also something that not a lot of characters will have access to. Sure, your beginning level character can do X and Y and make Z look like a fool, but not everyone will be playing games where characters have access to Sorcery. Therein lies the balance, as far as realism allows.

 

[Quintus]

Ok. I can see your point. And I accept that just about anything is possible. having said that, why not simplify the system a bit more by creating some fundamental rules about "what" magic done with "x" can do. For instance:

I find it incredibly hard to believe that a Magnitude 1 spell costs as much in Power as a Magnitude 20 spell. Skill is nice and fine, but how does skill dictate the Power "funneled" into the spell by a Wizard? A wizzard can learn a new spell, and, if he has a magnitude skill level of 200%, can then automatically cast that spell (at 1 power point) at magnitude level 20. Now that is odd...

Having such diverse spells as Firebolt (1 d6 per 2 magnitude, and armor blocks it) vs a spell such as Lightning (1d4 per magnitude, and no armor save) and a spell such as Disruption (1 d3 damage, and no armor save, and does not mention anything about magnitude at all) makes it pretty simple for anyone to say: hey, Lightning Bolt is where its at! Up until a spell comes out that says "do 1d6 per magnitude".

The point is, the system is great for a structured and direct power vs effect system. 1 power provides X range, 1 power does X damage (no matter what element or force), 1 power does X ability. If one combines different effects (damage and an ability, such as a Frost Bolt that also Slows the target, then the damage ought to be lessened, and the slowing effect reduced). But you say, you can already do that, with multiple spell casting...true. But a simple chart of effects one could apply, and other neat spell attributes may have been a better way of generating spells, then creating hundreds of odd spells, that are not well balanced in the power vs affect ratio.

No wizard wants to sit there and cast a mere palsyu spell, or a venom spell. Thats old school Gandalf the White kinda stuff. The D&D players of the 90's and today want to see a bit more flashy effects. But the guidelines for creating magic is missing, leaving the headache up to the GM. The simple sorcery system in the book is no good. The magic in the Magic Book is for Godlearners, and you say yourself, that if players play Godlearners, it unbalances longer campaigns.

Well, thats all we play - is long campaigns. And on top of that, they'll all be hunted down and destroyed pretty soon. So I'll tell my players, You can play a Godlearner, but your definately gona die, and then the other player that wants to play a Kung-Fu style shaolin-dragon-speaking EWF martial artist cannot play...

The basic magic system with runes was great! More magnitude, then spend more magic points! Still have problems with people advertising what spell rune they have, so that others can go to them and learn (how is an Orc Shaman ever going to get to figure out how to learn casting these runes? The Orc shaman that teaches him would most likely just take the darn thing from him...)

The Divine Magic system is also great...you get your power back, after casting the spell - neat idea. Used to upset players when they lost all that power, and the guy resisted it in the old system. But the sorcery is still the same - still broken IMHO. Not only the spells, but the charcter creation.

In the old system, they at least said that wizard apprentice X starts with one of the Manipulation Skills. In this system, no-mentioning-at-all about what a Wizard knows - other than 1 Rune and perhaps another Rune. Now what do Wizards whant with Runes when they can cast ALL spells as you mention anyway, without having to find a rune (and loose a power point) to begin with? That is the real gripe. I can fix anything I want, but why should I have to, when the character creation system was not fleshed out for wizards in the companion, as it should have been. And then comes the looong awaited magic book, and all we get is: THIS STUFF IS FOR NPC"S ONLY! To use it in long campaigns is unbalancing..yadayadayda.

Sorry Sir, very dissapointed...my group likes rules systems without having to tweak them, especially in major ways. makes one loose faith in how the whole system operates in harmony together. No matter what, players like some form of "ohh, this is fair" play balance. All systems take care to see to that, so that no class "majorly" outclasses any other class. Fighters get hugely penalised for wearing ANY armor, but a sorcerer can cast a 5d4 spell, 3 times a round, at incredible range, and at multiple targets when he is a mere starting character...now that is wrong. I was happier with the mere Palsy Spell for Sorcerers...now they are way on the other end of the spectrum. And ANYONE can learn it...no biggy. Spend 2 Improvement Points...and we ALL get 1d4 lightning bolts. So we now have a group of 6 adventurers, no-one is wearing any armor, and all cast Ligthning (especially since it bypasses ALL armor (should have said Metal Armor, and not ALL armor).

Another gripe - your skill system. What is hapening? I can Ride at Dex + POW, but when I want to armwrestle someone, I only start with Dex? What? Kids rough-house each other more often than ride. All skills should have had a base + Stat, or 2 Stats. There are skills that should not have a higher starting base, just-because it made sense that skill X is influenced by 2 stats...makes sense, but unbalances. Ever think about using Dex+Dex for one skill, and Str+Dex for another, to help balance it out? Harn does that...

Anyaway - I'm sorely disapointed by the whole system. I bought every book, but the more I read, the more I play, the more I realize its not the Runequest I remember. E-Bay...that sounds about the thing to do right now, especially when I get comments such as "of course they are suposed to be unbalancingly powerfull"...thats no ruling, but an excuse to do whatever you want. But, if nothign else, you instilled in the player "That without magic, there are no rules. Magic dictates that there is such a thing as gravity, not a magnetic force..etc" And then you say there are no rules that govern magic? Wow...OK. Whant to buy new Magic Book. Please higher a writer that writes worse, but has a better concept of game design and play-balance, and who reads the other books also.

Sorry for all this, but there is no-way around it. Some things are just not done in a game - and that is, ignore existing rules. Ever...thats the death knell of any game. I've been playing games of all types, from D&D in the 80's, to Harn, to Advanced Squad Leader...Rolemaster, you name it. But this system...you gota do some fixing.

Q...

Q...

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

Well, thats all we play - is long campaigns. And on top of that, they'll all be hunted down and destroyed pretty soon. So I'll tell my players, You can play a Godlearner, but your definately gona die, and then the other player that wants to play a Kung-Fu style shaolin-dragon-speaking EWF martial artist cannot play...

Common sense applies. Complaining that God Learners and Dragonspeakers can't be in the same group is a bit like complaining Tyranids and Space Marines can't be, or Stormtroopers and Rebel Pilots. It's common sense. It's not my fault if a group can't play to a theme. If they want to be a vampire, a werewolf, a mummy and a ghost all hanging out, that's fine. But the setting itself - Glorantha's 2nd Age itself - is all about the war between the GLs and the EWF. Um... sorry?

You're complaining about the setting here, or complaining that your players want to play conflicting characters. It's got nothing to do with me, guy.

And then comes the looong awaited magic book, and all we get is: THIS STUFF IS FOR NPC"S ONLY! To use it in long campaigns is unbalancing..yadayadayda.

Ah, I'm with you now. Luckily, and I'm trying not to be mean here, but reading the book will actually highlight what absolute nonsense you're saying in this part.

In fact, the book stresses the exact opposite of what you're suggesting - and does so specifically in an introductory sidebar.

especially when I get comments such as "of course they are suposed to be unbalancingly powerfull"...thats no ruling, but an excuse to do whatever you want. But, if nothign else, you instilled in the player "That without magic, there are no rules. Magic dictates that there is such a thing as gravity, not a magnetic force..etc" And then you say there are no rules that govern magic? Wow...OK. Whant to buy new Magic Book. Please higher a writer that writes worse, but has a better concept of game design and play-balance, and who reads the other books also.

I'm, having trouble understanding this, but I'll give it a go. I'm sorry you don't like that the God Learners and the EWF are more powerful than other cultures. I'm sorry you don't like that part of Gloranthan history, and I'm sorry you don't like that the rules reflect their power.

As for your insults: very intriguing stuff, but I'm afraid I stand by my decision to make the rules reflect the setting, rather than alter history to make the God Learners and Dragonlords have more mundane 'balanced' powers. They weren't balanced, dude. They almost ended the world because of it. The rules reflect that. It's the Imperial Age, fer Chrissakes.

You're entitled to your complaints, of course. I don't understand them and I think they betray an alarming lack of understanding for the setting, but you're good to go, chief. Rock the hell on.

 

[Rurik]

I generally try not to get into the middle of impassioned exchanges but sometimes can't help myself.

I think many of the problems come from the names of books. I follow this forum regularly and knew what to expect from MoG - basically a sourcebook on the God Learners and the EWF. The title is easily misleading. I have had conversations about MRQ with people that go kinda like the following:

ME: The core rules only has Rune Magic, well, what they now call Rune Magic, which used to be Battle Magic/Spirit Magic.

Composite Imaginary Person Representing Other Party(CIPROP): So where is the old Rune Magic?

ME: Old Rune Magic/Divine Magic is in the Companion, as is sorcery and Enchanting.

CIPROP: And summoning too then?

ME: No, Summoning and Spirit Magic are in Cults of Glorantha Two.

CIPROP: Shamanism in Cults, Sorcery/Divine in Companion, and Spirit... er, Rune Magic in the Core - isn't that kinda spread out?

ME: Well, I didn't mention common magic, y'know what everyday farmers and the like use, which is in the Players Guide.

CIPROP: O.K. I see. So what is in Magic of Glorantha then?

ME: Draconic Magic and God Learner stuff. and HeroQuesting.

CIPROP: HeroQuesting, right - so what is in Legendary Heroes?

ME: Mass Combat.

CIPROP: So if they ever release a Mass Combat book what do you think will be in that?

ME: Damned if I know.

That above conversation is honestly not that far off from actual conversations I have had. The Book titles are not that Intuitive.

Quintus I don't know what you were expecting Mog to be about, probably much more of a book of spells and such (though how you would get that from the title is beyond me :? ).

So far, and again, my expectations were set as a regular on this board, Magic of Glorantha is pretty much what I was expecting - new material for the God Learners and EWF, mostly source. And (finally) HeroQuesting rules (though I haven't read them yet).

Sorcery IS powerful, probably more so than RQ3 sorcery, though the higher magnitudes of RQ3 Sorcery were extreme (Durations of years and years, ranges of thousands of miles), and are toned down in MRQ.

God Learner and EWF Magic have always been supposed to be the more powerful than the 'standard' magic types, that has been a part of Gloranthan lore for a long time now.

 

[richaje]

The God Learners aren't balanced. That's pretty much the point. It's even in a sidebar. Sorcery itself is insanely powerful. That, too, is the point. That's why it takes so long to learn compared to, say, just picking up a rune and going to town. You can do all that jazz, sure, but it takes a lot of Skills to do it reliably or well. A lot. Therein lies what game balance should ever be applied to the God Learners.

Additionally, Glorantha herself will be providing some game balance to the God Learners. Without giving out too much, the God Learners get hit so hard in the century and a half that you really don't have to worry about game balance. A God Learner sorcerer will be about the best magic-user around - at least until Orlanth manifests himself (through his heroes) in the Iron Wars, the Closing destroys the maritime backbone of the Middle-Sea Empire and cuts the various parts of the Empire off from itself, a band of Umathelans perform the Lightbringers Quest and come back with long-dead and unexpected allies which destroy their power in the south, and then the Luathelans arrive in Seshnela and drive a spike through the heart of the God Learners.

In short - don't worry about game balance for the God Learners!

 

[Quintus]

When I read "Magic of Glorantha", I thought. "Hmm, Magic = Sorcery, Magic = Runes, Magic = Spells, Magic = Character Cration specifically for Glorantha Character Spellcasters (Wizards that get Sorcery Spells and Skills, instead of Runes they have integrated).

Then I read " Unbalancing", "Too powerfull for long campaigns", "Problems with players using these magics", "Sorceres can use ALL spells".

OK. So we start a new world, a new campaign. I think - ok, godlearners have pretty much stamped out every oposition, or integrated all existing sorcery schools and practitioners into their fold. But, lets NOT have the player be a Godlearner from the start, let them choose later. BUT, the person that taught him the Spells IS or HAS learning from God-learners? Wherefrom else? A hedgewizard, aka Radaghast the Brown? Or a worldly wizard, like good old G. (Every civilization imposes its believes, customes, values etc over the conquored nations, tribes, people. Every aspect of Religion has been invaded, challenged, infiltrated, by both sides. Why would one NOT think that ALL magic practices by both sides would also be influenced?)

Thus, when you say that Godlearners can learn this, thats too vague. You can say "Godlearners that have heroquested have learned to cast spells X", but Godlearner wizard A that lives in a remote village? What does he know? Well...he knows how to cast runes. Ohh, he may, dont know how, know how to Manipulate Spells. No idea who taught him that. Ok. But he knows a few spells. Which ones? Choose one...the old system had you choose a spell from a defensive and an offensive list (similar to saying - choose a rune from this list))

So, player sais, I can learn all spells. Neat. I say, nope, only Godlearners. he sais why? I say...ummm...they say so? Thats silly...MAGIC.

Magic can be used to do anything. If player A has the skill to learn and create spells, he will make it happen. So when he picks a spell, so overpowered that it is a Devine Spell, cast at GREAT COST and sacrifice to the person who learned it...wow. There is something wrong about that.

Ok. I see what you say about all these various forms of magic. But for heaven sake, put at least a little into the basic rules for ALL. Don't get caught up in the D&D franchises 1000 book needed to play syndrom.

We've been playing Warhammer Roleplaying for near 20 years straight. Why? Everything in 1 book. Never a revision. Works great. Look at it sometime. It has Everything you need. Hundreds of characters, Sorcery, necromancy, Demonology, Druid Spells, Elementalists, Monsters, Advanced Character (aka Hero) classes, GM rules...in 1 book.

And then they did the same thing your doing now. Revise the system. Make smaller books. Sell better, faster, cheaper. more fluff. And you gota buy them all to play any of the classes listed at their actual potential. Not just a Wizard palying like a Shaman with rune-sticks. But actual Sorcery.

But what did the companion do? Say, this is how you can cast many spells, for away, at great power, and it costs Nothing, or near nothing. And spells. Nothing at all about "How does a Wizard, or a Priest, get rolled up, and get their spells"? Ohh, basic book sais you get runes. nevemind, I'll play a Shaman instead, they get runes too, but that makes more sense.

So in essence, we received a book with lots of "glitz", a few spells, and a bunch of pages of Monk Type Martial Arts Magic Schools that - ohh...teach 1 Heroic Ability. How am I to say to a player...ohh..look through the book, and see which of those Abilities you like, before I add them into my existing campaign.? But nothing at all for character cration...Sad that I have to go to a 3rd party to buy those...

Q...

 

[Blackyinkin]

We've been playing Warhammer Roleplaying for near 20 years straight. Why? Everything in 1 book. Never a revision. Works great. Look at it sometime. It has Everything you need. Hundreds of characters, Sorcery, necromancy, Demonology, Druid Spells, Elementalists, Monsters, Advanced Character (aka Hero) classes, GM rules...in 1 book.

Whilst lovely in principal it does not merit a marketting strategy that encourages punters to pay up their cash.

Simon

 

[Quintus]

Common sense applies. Complaining that God Learners and Dragonspeakers can't be in the same group is a bit like complaining Tyranids and Space Marines can't be, or Stormtroopers and Rebel Pilots. It's common sense. It's not my fault if a group can't play to a theme. If they want to be a vampire, a werewolf, a mummy and a ghost all hanging out, that's fine. But the setting itself - Glorantha's 2nd Age itself - is all about the war between the GLs and the EWF. Um... sorry?

War is nice and fine. Why bother publishing all this material? For the players, right? If not, then for DMs? If for players, which player get to be the Godlearner, and which one the EWF? Ohh, ok. Lets roll off. Fine. I can deal with that, but neither is as black and white as your examples. They are both just doing what they feel is right. I understand that. But this book, specifically for Glorantha, is in my sense JUST for DM's. Then, if that is the case, put some stuff in there DM's can actually use. I dont need you to tell me what spells I can use, or allow. What I need to have is for a system that has:
1. Consistency.
2. Balance in Character Creation.
3. A feeling that we as players, can matter, and can fight either side if we need to, even with our "common" magic". Why bother else?
4. Define what the OVERALL magic in Glorantha is like. So you portrayed both sides nicely. Granted. Neat stuff. Never argued that. I know Glorantha...better than you think I do. But you failed to build a foundation of a magic system that came before! The foundation of magic, before it was changed by the Godlearners and EWF.
5. So they have more powerfull magic. So what. But why? Heroquesting, Dragonmagic. Thats like saying the electricity from a nuclear powerplant is better than that from a coal fired powerplant. They both produce Power. One more than the other, with more efficiency. Thats all. Its still the same power...

You're complaining about the setting here, or complaining that your players want to play conflicting characters. It's got nothing to do with me, guy.

Of course it does not. All I'm saying is that it provides a haven for arguments, if you let players use these rules. Sure they could play together - not realistic at all, having read what they are like and how diamatically they oppose each other. And their superiors...hm. They wont like that at all. So no advancements etc.

I'm, having trouble understanding this, but I'll give it a go. I'm sorry you don't like that the God Learners and the EWF are more powerful than other cultures. I'm sorry you don't like that part of Gloranthan history, and I'm sorry you don't like that the rules reflect their power.

As for your insults: very intriguing stuff, but I'm afraid I stand by my decision to make the rules reflect the setting, rather than alter history to make the God Learners and Dragonlords have more mundane 'balanced' powers. They weren't balanced, dude. They almost ended the world because of it. The rules reflect that. It's the Imperial Age, fer Chrissakes.

No arguing about powerbalance. Dont care if side A has a bigger stick than side B. What I care about is that the balance IN THE STUFF THAT MAKES THIS WORLD POSSIBLE. Magic...for heavens sake.

You say that magic makes all possible. Ok. I'm gona design a spell, that does 1-10 damage for each Magnitude, and Zaps the creature so badly, that they loose 1 action...Cool. By what you say, I can do that. Then spell falls into players hand. Ok, why not. They earned it. Then I need to make a more powerfull version etc.

The basic rules or magic, those that define Range, Magnitude, Duration, and Targets, are the framework. But you GIVE US NO DAMN BASE.

We get...

Palsy - yea right...
Discruption - 1d3 (no magnitude enhancement possible, other than to decrease resistance...)
Lightning - 1d4 per magnitude, no armor
Firebolt - 1-6 / 2 magnitude
My spell - 1d10, and 1 action loss per magnitude

OK. That makes alot of sense. So this is the Base. Then I apply the framework. OK. Right on. Lets take my spell out, its overpowered.

Palsy - yea right...
Disruption - 1d3
Lightning - 1d4 per magnitude, no armor
Firebolt - 1-6 / 2 magnitude

Hmm...still no better.

You're entitled to your complaints, of course. I don't understand them and I think they betray an alarming lack of understanding for the setting, but you're good to go, chief. Rock the hell on.

Mechanics - thats what I question. Not your settting.

Q...

 

[Quintus]

We've been playing Warhammer Roleplaying for near 20 years straight. Why? Everything in 1 book. Never a revision. Works great. Look at it sometime. It has Everything you need. Hundreds of characters, Sorcery, necromancy, Demonology, Druid Spells, Elementalists, Monsters, Advanced Character (aka Hero) classes, GM rules...in 1 book.

Whilst lovely in principal it does not merit a marketting strategy that encourages punters to pay up their cash.

Simon

I agree. Thats why they stopped making the stuff. But it was a great system nevertheless. As used to be Runequest. But I believe that there is a medium, a balance. Address the foundations first, before building the pyramids of earthshattering nations.

Q...

 

[simonh]

I was sorely disapointed with the Magic of Glorantha book. Still no answer on how to create proper Wizards! No mentioning about the learning process, the evolution of magic and spells, and no more Spell-casting character classes (illusionist, necromancer, hedge-wizard or whatever...)

RQ doesn't have character classes, and even professions such as the ones you mention aren't appropriate for Glorantha. "What did you do for a living before you became and adventurer?". "I raised the living dead from the grave!".

I read in the book that "ANY" spell may be used as a Sorcery Spell (Or "just" about any...what a cop-out on Mongooses part, for not declaring "which" ones...either list them, or say ALL.)

So, now I have a beginning level wizard, that has Manipulation for Intensity up to 5...with the divine Lightning Spell!!!

RPGs are necessarily full of such caveats and incomplete information. A list of such spells would only be good fro the spells is lists - any later publications wouldn't be covered and so you'd be back to square one. At the end of the day a lot of things in RPGs are necessarily left to GM discression.

 

[Quintus]

RQ doesn't have character classes, and even professions such as the ones you mention aren't appropriate for Glorantha. "What did you do for a living before you became and adventurer?". "I raised the living dead from the grave!".

Uhh..I was a Witch, no a Wizard...no, a Shaman. I speak with dead people. Then I decided that I wanted to do something else...

RPGs are necessarily full of such caveats and incomplete information. A list of such spells would only be good fro the spells is lists - any later publications wouldn't be covered and so you'd be back to square one. At the end of the day a lot of things in RPGs are necessarily left to GM discression.

Naturally. Been a GM for may years. Thats why I cannot fathom why they leave some of the most fundamental aspects of the game unanswered.

1. Detail all the basics of all magic systems, not just one.
2. Make the compansion an actual Companion to the Basic Rulebook, and clarify some odds and ends not mentioned, such as promised Non-Player races (...in upcomming Companion...right), changes to the basic Character Creation Tables that need changing due to the INTRODUCTION of NEW magics (Sorcery and Devine). For all purposes, the Wizards and Priests of this world still cast only Runes.
3. Explain why armor weight gives one a double penalty - one for wearing it, the other for encumberance. Unless you play in games where every player has a score of 16-18, this is highly unlikely to play a Knight, for example. (I'm Sir Percival...but this armor is tooooo heavy, and because I cant move, I cant hit you - ohh...nevermind the -20% because of my 20 items in the backback that weight 1 ENC, which is 1 point over my max. better drop my handkerchief...I'll be fine then.)

Sorry for the last one...but there is somethign wrong with the double penalty system for weight and Enc.

Anywho, I don't want to offend any one particular person. I'm just griping about these holes that just dont make sense. Who allowed them to creep in? And to make more fluff instead of making the basic rules right, seems to only add more holes...

/shrug. Thats my impression that I'm getting from this system.

Q...

 

[Adept]

We've been playing Warhammer Roleplaying for near 20 years straight. Why? Everything in 1 book. Never a revision. Works great. Look at it sometime. It has Everything you need. Hundreds of characters, Sorcery, necromancy, Demonology, Druid Spells, Elementalists, Monsters, Advanced Character (aka Hero) classes, GM rules...in 1 book.

Whilst lovely in principal it does not merit a marketting strategy that encourages punters to pay up their cash.

Simon

Also it's not quite true. A Warhammer RPG GM who never got Realms of Sorcery has missed out on about half the game.

The Realms of Sorcery book is what lifted Warhammer from being a cheap Glorantha clone to something truly worthy and original.

At least that is my experience.

 

[TRose]

I think the order the books have been coming out could have been better.I consider both the cults 2 book, with its rules on shaman, and the Players guide with its folk magic more important then , say Legendary Heros and the Magic of Glorantha. I mean players are going to be casting folk magic spells and dealing with shaman long befor they start leading armies against the Clanking City.
And speaking of nasty sorcerers Did anyone ever see a Red Moon sorcerer in action?They used spirit(Now called rune magic) and then use sorcerey skills to manipulate them. Good thing they are not going to be around for a few years.

 

[Quintus]

We've been playing Warhammer Roleplaying for near 20 years straight. Why? Everything in 1 book. Never a revision. Works great. Look at it sometime. It has Everything you need. Hundreds of characters, Sorcery, necromancy, Demonology, Druid Spells, Elementalists, Monsters, Advanced Character (aka Hero) classes, GM rules...in 1 book.

Whilst lovely in principal it does not merit a marketting strategy that encourages punters to pay up their cash.

Simon

Also it's not quite true. A Warhammer RPG GM who never got Realms of Sorcery has missed out on about half the game.

The Realms of Sorcery book is what lifted Warhammer from being a cheap Glorantha clone to something truly worthy and original.

At least that is my experience.

Yea. I have the collector - leather bound and signed with the authors' blood edition...

Including level 5 spells was about the worst thing they did in that book. If you think otherwise, thats your way of thinking...

But I did severely love the way they treated the whole approach to becomming a wizard, the process etc. Awesome book, with the exception noted above...

Q...

PS: I own everything you can throw at me for that game setting...lets not go there and stay here in Runequest. It was after all just used for an anology, to show that ultimately a company must produce more work, in order to exist. Just as Wallenstein said that war needs war to feed upon itself, so must these systems. Unfortunatly...fluff seems to win every time, instead of good, solid rules. We can make our own fluff, thats what these games are for. Just provide a good foundation is all I'm asking, and pay attention to existing rules.

For instance, another agrivating point is here:

Fire, Heat and Freezing
A character will normally take damage from fire or heat to a specific hit location. However, if a character is immersed in the source of the damage, then all locations will suffer from the damage the fire causes. The amount of damage suffered from fire or heat will depend on its intensity, as shown on the Fire and Heat table.

Fire and Heat
Damage Source Example Damage
Flame Candle 1 point
Large Flame Flaming brand D4 points
Small Fire Camp fire, cooking fire D6 points
Large Fire Scolding steam, large bonfires, burning rooms 2D6 points
Inferno Lava, inside a blast furnace 3D6 points


No where does it say that Armor can be used to mitigate damage. But it doe say in the rules for asphixiation that armor does NOT help. Therefore, it must help for Fire, since you dont specifically say so...thats not good enough. Either say so, or say so that it does not. Leaving it open leeds to interpritation, ie poor rule management and creation. The Firebolt spell does say that armor blocks heat damage. So therefore the above rule does say that armor blocks fire damge?

should not have to wait for a spell to tell me a fundamental rule...ehh?

Q...

 

[TRose]

I think one thing yhat does kind of Balance out Godlearners would be that the Mostali hate you with a passion greater then trolls and elves.And they are not nice people to have after your head. I can see them even sponsering adventerours that go after Godllearners with discounts( up to 3% off) on iron weapons and armor. Im not too sure how they feel about the EWF but my guess is again they are not on friendly terms.
In cases Moatali might even loan One use gunpowder items to Godlearner enemies
Mostali : Here you take this keg of magic dust and after I light the fuse you run under that evil Godlearner monster and you will destroy it and win great glory.
Orlanthi Barbarian:But why you getting behind that rock and putting your fingers in your ear
Mostali:Uh' its part of the magic ritual to make magic dust work.

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

I think the order the books have been coming out could have been better.I consider both the cults 2 book, with its rules on shaman, and the Players guide with its folk magic more important then , say Legendary Heros and the Magic of Glorantha. I mean players are going to be casting folk magic spells and dealing with shaman long befor they start leading armies against the Clanking City.

Yes and no.

Bear in mind that your view of Glorantha might not reflect others', especially given the fact it's the Second Age. A lot of new players especially will probably be playing God Learners and Dragonspeakers as the 'base' characters, since the Second Age is largely about them. That's why Magic of Glorantha, f'rex, is a book about their magic, and not the magic of all the other cultures that veteran RQ fans are used to.

Folk Magic means less than nothing to me, for example. In a game focused on my players' efforts as Dragonspeakers to defend conquered Orlanthi communities from God Learner agents and other local threats, they deal principally with Dragon Magic, Rune Magic and Sorcery. Admittedly a lot of the reaction I've seen here and there has many RQ vets seeing the two empires as enemies to be fought (which is cool, sure) but I'm willing to wager that most new players and more than a few vets will be playing them; and as the major factions of the setting, they needed their magic done very early. The magic of the main factions is unarguably more important than lesser cultures' tricks.

Clanking City is, however, very specialised - but no moreso than any city sourcebook and note that it's not coming out before those other books you mentioned - it's coming out afterwards. Note also that the types of games set there aren't going to be limited to attacking the place just because it's a hellhole of Gloranthan myth. Much like any city supplement, the sourcebook is about setting games there, detailing the social, magical and physical goings on that you can get up to.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Runequest needs more "classes" like a prostitute needs genital warts.


As far as "design systems", such usually ends up being either hopelessly generic, or exceptionally arcane. The GM doesn't really benefit in any way, and it usually just serves as justification for the players to load up on outrageous and min-maxed superspells.

Count me out please.

 

[soltakss]

And speaking of nasty sorcerers Did anyone ever see a Red Moon sorcerer in action?They used spirit(Now called rune magic) and then use sorcerey skills to manipulate them. Good thing they are not going to be around for a few years.

To be honest, I thought the Godlearners would be able to do something similar - combining the different types of magic.

 

[Quintus]

I think the order the books have been coming out could have been better.I consider both the cults 2 book, with its rules on shaman, and the Players guide with its folk magic more important then , say Legendary Heros and the Magic of Glorantha. I mean players are going to be casting folk magic spells and dealing with shaman long befor they start leading armies against the Clanking City.

Yes and no.

Bear in mind that your view of Glorantha might not reflect others', especially given the fact it's the Second Age. A lot of new players especially will probably be playing God Learners and Dragonspeakers as the 'base' characters, since the Second Age is largely about them. That's why Magic of Glorantha, f'rex, is a book about their magic, and not the magic of all the other cultures that veteran RQ fans are used to.

Folk Magic means less than nothing to me, for example. In a game focused on my players' efforts as Dragonspeakers to defend conquered Orlanthi communities from God Learner agents and other local threats, they deal principally with Dragon Magic, Rune Magic and Sorcery. Admittedly a lot of the reaction I've seen here and there has many RQ vets seeing the two empires as enemies to be fought (which is cool, sure) but I'm willing to wager that most new players and more than a few vets will be playing them; and as the major factions of the setting, they needed their magic done very early. The magic of the main factions is unarguably more important than lesser cultures' tricks.

Clanking City is, however, very specialised - but no moreso than any city sourcebook and note that it's not coming out before those other books you mentioned - it's coming out afterwards. Note also that the types of games set there aren't going to be limited to attacking the place just because it's a hellhole of Gloranthan myth. Much like any city supplement, the sourcebook is about setting games there, detailing the social, magical and physical goings on that you can get up to.

That pretty much clarifies it for me - Power-Gamers. I supose in this age of MMORPG's, traditional RPG's are way too booring. Why bother dealing with rules, books, trying to figure out when is a good tme for everyone to meet etc. With puter games, everyone can play, whenever you want, and actually see the stuff. It must be a tough industry to try to compete with this media...

I see Glorantha as 50 % barbaric/rural, 20 % nomadic, 10 % tribal/primitive, and 20 % civilised/urban.

In my experience, for short games, sure, play that god-blasting hero, that has 20 different artifacts from slain deities. But for the majority of hard core roleplayers, its the finer points of a systems basic components that make a great campaign.

Starting out as a peasant, with a rusty sword from a battlefield has alot more gamming potential than say a hero class character decked out with redicilous amounts of magic and abilities. One of the most memorable rewards that the players thought was the best ever, was when the people of a village they saved, hired a scupltor and had a statue of the leader of the group errected in their town square, as memory for the deeds they performed. I was floored myself...but since that time, every game I'd run, the new groups would end up hearing the legends and deeds of their past characters recited - and glorified, to mystical proportions.

We dont need books that shatter worlds to have fun playing a game. What we do need, is a solid, basic foundation, so we know what to build upon. Thats whats starting to irritate me with this system. Sorry, but thats just the way I feel. Even D&D fleshed out all of their basics, before creating God-Worlds...

Q...