Some Questions

[Kirowan]

Hi,

I'm interested in getting into Conan, but I've heard two complaints about the game that I want to get opinions on.

1. Bows and crossbows are ineffective against characters in armor.

2. Since characters only get base DV when flat-footed and the massive damage threshold is so low, thiefs are too powerful with their sneak attacks.

Are either of these claims warranted?

Thanks!

 

[Oly]

I can't really comment on point 1, I've only had arrows in play a couple of times.

Point 2 really isn't much of a problem. I've got a pirate in my group and he has to work and think hard about bringing his sneak attack into use in a combat, he really doesn't roll it that often. Flanking is also a far more common cause of it than catching somebody flat footed is.

There is another discussion on the go about whether characters should really begin all combats flat footed. Have a look at the thread labeled "Sneak & Initiative Question".

 

[Kirowan]

Do you find that in those flanking situations the pirate is too deadly?

 

[geordiekimbo]

1. Bows and crossbows are ineffective against characters in armor.

I play a level 9 Shemite soldier who specializes in archery and I've had no real disasters against people in armour.

Don't forget not all enemies wear heavy armour.




#Edited for spelling#

 

[BigSteveUK]

I have ran 2 games now and I don't think thieves are that much more powerful than D&D & certainly no more powerful than a 15 lvl paladin with a +5 holy avenger or chain lighting from a Wizard.

Some of the high ends of armour can be problems for bows, but then again if you have read any of the Conan books or taking it very loosely the films, there aren’t that many cultures that wear heavy armour and those that do are usually the elite guard. Also there is a wonderful feat called Ranged Weapon finesse which lets you bypass that horrible metal stuff if your lucky….

Conan is a significantly different system than D&D and combat for all classes is considerably more dangerous and much more fun. I personally can’t recommend the game enough and the setting is a lot more fun, gritty and believable than most and thus far has received excellent support from Mongoose, I just hope it isn’t ever cast away like Slaine..dig..dig…

 

[VincentDarlage]

Hi,

Are either of these claims warranted?

Thanks!

Not in my experience. I have been playing the game since the playtest and have not seen either of those being the case.

 

[Sutek]

All weapons are bumped up in damage values if they are other than light or one-handed weapons. This means that brute strength can deal as much damage as sneak attacks, although sneak attacks.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks too if within 30', so that's going to help arrows out right there.

Curiously, looking now, I dont'see anything that indicates that Sneak Attacks are full-round actions in Conan. Am I blind?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Don't forget AP either- as I understand it one of the Exotic Bows with a decent natural AP and recurved for higher STR gets a bonus to AP as well as damage for the STR of the wielder. So an archer with a Bossosian Longbow recurved for 18 STR has a 9 AP withing one range bracket of 80 ft and a base damage of 1d12+4. The AP will halve anything sort of extremely Heavy Armor in close range and the damage isn't anything to sneeze with....

.....and then there is the Poison on the arrow tips....8)

 

[Sutek]

Yeah...that's what I was driving at, but I didn't want to go into too much detail. In essence, the weapons that a thief uses for performing sneak attacks are in the d6-d8 range with standard crit. Beefier weapons for the brute types are in the d10 and some d12 ranges, so they pack more of a punch. This makes a difference when trying to penetrate armor: lighter weapons sometimes can penetrate at all.

The way around this is Weapon Finesse attacks, where armor can be ignored altogether, but it's slightly tougher to accomplish than simply bashing it out.

 

[Foxworthy]

Curiously, looking now, I dont'see anything that indicates that Sneak Attacks are full-round actions in Conan. Am I blind?

Nope not blind. Sneak Attacks are just added damage to your normal attacks under certain circumstances.

 

[Sutek]

So, you get like...3 attacks, each with sneak damage, or the sneak damage is added for the round, no matter how many hit?

In D&D 3.5 it's a full-round action, I thought. I can't find it there either. Did I manage to not forget enough between 3.0 and 3.5???

 

[Foxworthy]

if you can get three attacks then you'd get sneak attack damage added to each one. Which makes ranged sneak attack more deadly since you have a less chance of having to move. Generally you'll only get one sneak attack due to having to move into position or using improved feint or what not.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a full round attack in 3.0 but as for 3.5 I haven't checked the SRD, but I haven't seen it in there either.

 

[Sutek]

Well, for the record, it's kinda rediculous to have it NOT be a full-0round action, honestly. I mean, a thief that gets 3 attacks per round would also get potentially +24d8 just from the sneak blows. That's a damage range of 8-192 regardless of weapon damage. That's just way too much. I mean, come on...the +8d6 is more than enough to kill just about anybody at that level/HD (range of 8-48) by forcing a MD save on an average roll before the weapon and STR.

:?

 

[VincentDarlage]

If it was a full-round action, then no one could use a sneak attack during a surprise round.

 

[Sutek]

Well...erm...yes. You use the surprise round to either (A) hold your action until the enemy moves closer or (B) if you feel assured that you'll retain a high INIT count, you move up in the surprise round inorder to take advantage of the fact that the target is still flat-footed in the INIT count. Either one of those or (C) you sneak attack from range in the surprise round because you dont'have to even worry about moving to do that.

 

[Trodax]

Sneak Attack is not a full-round action, not in Conan or D&D3.5 (for 3.0, I'm not 100% sure, but I wouldn't think so).
It's basically just extra damage, and not a special attack form. In other words, it's more similar to Weapon Specialization than to Whirlwind Attack.

As if to Sneak Attacking is overpowered or not, that has been discussed in a large number of threads in the past. You can dish out brutal amounts of damage with Sneak Attack, thats for sure, but I'm not convinced that Thieves are overpowered or 'broken'.

 

[Oly]

I've not seen anything to say that sneak attacks are full round actions, certainly not in Conan or after a quick flip through D&D 3.0.

I've "only" got a 5th level Pirate and not a thief, he's certainly not overpowering in combat. To bring it into use he has to keep working on getting in flanking positions while at the same time avoiding AoO's. I've actually found that Greater Cleave has a far greater lawnmower effect on the opposition and even that I don't consider to be a huge problem.

Oly

 

[Foxworthy]

Through actual play with thieves I haven't seen the sneak attack be too powerful. Generally movement is needed in the first round which limits the sneak attack to one attack. It's rare for someone to get multiple sneak attacks on the first round in our campaign, as generally it rare for use to start within 30' of our opponents with ranged weapons. Or within 5' for melee weapons.

 

[argo]

Sneak attack has never been a full round action, not in dnd 3.0 or 3.5 and not in Conan. In any event, I wouldn't worry about full round sneak attacks. The balancing factor of sneak attack has always been that they are difficult to pull off and doing so usually puts the thief in danger.

As for bows, IME they are decent enough against light and medium armor but weak against heavy armor. I'm ok with that, I like my swords 'n sorcery biased towards melee combat.

Later.

 

[Sutek]

I realize it isnt a FRA, I just thought it was, but I learned from my GM all those years ago when 3.0 came out and never questioned it because it seemed reasonable that all that extra damage was the trade off.

Seeing now that I have been mistaken all along (all the crap I coulf have killed too...lol) I just think that multiple attacks plus sneak attack is excessive. I don't see really how a thief is "vulnerable" since if he's getting even 2 attacks base wielding a dagger he can deal up to 76 points of damge in a single round, and all he really needs to do is 20 to force a massive damage save. Even at equal level, an 18 CON Barbarian would have around 112 or so HP and that 72 points of damage is over 60% of those HP in one shot. To me, that's excessive, particularly when viewed against non-sneak attack damge potentials.

I guess what I'll do is house rule it to say that any one strike available to the thief is capable of being the sneak attack, but not all of them. In other words, the thief with three attacks can opt for any of those attack rolls to be his sneak attack, but he has to say so ahead of the roll. All can potentially hit, but only the strike deemed the sneak attack with dish out the extra sneak atack dice of damage.

My eyes have been opened and I see nothing but darkness...

lol