Some Questions

[argo]

Seeing now that I have been mistaken all along (all the crap I coulf have killed too...lol) I just think that multiple attacks plus sneak attack is excessive. I don't see really how a thief is "vulnerable" since if he's getting even 2 attacks base wielding a dagger he can deal up to 76 points of damge in a single round, and all he really needs to do is 20 to force a massive damage save. Even at equal level, an 18 CON Barbarian would have around 112 or so HP and that 72 points of damage is over 60% of those HP in one shot. To me, that's excessive, particularly when viewed against non-sneak attack damge potentials.

Lets make this thief vs soldier so we don't have to factor in the barb's uncanny dodge into the equation.

Now, lets take your thief and give him a shortsword instead of a dagger and call it his sneak attack style weapon, so on a sneak attack he does 5d8 damage (1d8 short sword + 4d8 sneak). Now that does indeed make for a max damage of 40 points per hit or 80 points per round .... but anybody who understands a bell curve knows that when you start rolling lots of dice it is the average damage that is more important and the average here is 20 points per hit or 40 per round.

Now, I know what your thinking, 20 points is massive damage! Well sure, when the thief is finessing his way past the flat-footed soldier's armor that is all well and good. But that will only happen once or twice a combat and we are talking about the threat of full-round sneak attacking which most likely means flanking a non-flat footed opponent. And since that soldier is wearing a mail haubrek his DR reduces the damage to only 14 points ... no massive damage. Now were looking at 28 points of damge for the entire round. Now, since I was doing averages lets recalcualte the soldier's HP for average results with a 16 Con, thats .... 69 HP so 28 points of damage is about 40% of his HP gone in a round.

But even if we were using your numbers, that is 60% of the Barb's HP in a round, we are still left with the thief's opponent standing at the end of the round. And that is exactly when the thief becomes "vulnerable". You see, now its the soldiers turn and he is going to take his 16 Str and his greatsword with Weapon Specalization and power attack for 2 points (which he can afford to do because the Theif's DV is not the best) and that is 2d10 + 10 or an average of 20 points of damage right there (plus note that unlike the thief he doesn't need a flanking buddy to pull this off). And unlike the soldier the thief is not wearing any armor and with his lousy Fort save he could be in some real trouble.

Oh, and lastly don't forget that the thief only has a 3/4 BAB. In regular melee, without the advantage of a suprise attack, his primary attack probably only has fair odds of hitting. His secondary attack probably won't hit at all.

So don't worry about sneak attack. Combat is rough enough on the poor thief as is.

Hope that helps.

 

[Harlequin Jones]

I've played both a thief and warrior. Sneak Attack is badass, no doubt - but it's really all the thief has. Her attack bonus sucks and her defenses aren't great, either. The pirate and I did our damndest to tumble around combats and flank opponents for 5d8 damage, but it was tough. The barbarian wound up carrying us more often than not.

Now I'm playing a barbarian/soldier. He's tougher at 2nd level than my thief was at 6th. My massive parry makes it had for anything to hit me, and when something does hit my 5 DR and 20hp help a great deal.

If you're a warrior, keep your back to a wall and friends at your sides. The thieves will be toast.


Harley

 

[Sutek]

Hope that helps.

hehe...Oh it helps. But it helps me understand that 5d8 hitting less often but generating Massive Damage on average is much better than the soldier's potential 1d8+STR and possible feats. Perhaps 2d8+2xSTR and feats because of double attacks is a better statement of the facts, but still far less than 2x5d8 that the thief can potentially generate.

When the soldier gates 2 attacks he's 6th level, +6/+1 and D+3/P+4. The thief doesn't get multiple attacks unti l8th level , but is then +6/+1, D+4/P+4 and can add +4d6/+4d8 per blow delivered!

That's a pretty massive comparison, particularly when you look at a soldier of 8th level having +8/+3 (not much better at all) D+4/P+6. The soldier is really only a coupld of points more likely to hit or parry, but is still goin got deliver far less than half the potential damage of the thief per blow delivered.

 

[Harlequin Jones]

Another way to put it: thieves kick ass when they outnumber their opponents; when outnumbered, they tend to get their butts kicked. From personal experience. *smirk*


Harley
(Poor doomed Mouse used up all her fate points...)

 

[Foxworthy]

Hope that helps.

hehe...Oh it helps. But it helps me understand that 5d8 hitting less often but generating Massive Damage on average is much better than the soldier's potential 1d8+STR and possible feats. Perhaps 2d8+2xSTR and feats because of double attacks is a better statement of the facts, but still far less than 2x5d8 that the thief can potentially generate.

When the soldier gates 2 attacks he's 6th level, +6/+1 and D+3/P+4. The thief doesn't get multiple attacks unti l8th level , but is then +6/+1, D+4/P+4 and can add +4d6/+4d8 per blow delivered!

That's a pretty massive comparison, particularly when you look at a soldier of 8th level having +8/+3 (not much better at all) D+4/P+6. The soldier is really only a coupld of points more likely to hit or parry, but is still goin got deliver far less than half the potential damage of the thief per blow delivered.

The mitigating factor to the sneak attack damage is that it can only be used in certain circumstances. I've had high level thieves and soldiers in my campaign and the soldier with the bardiche out did the thief with an arming sword everytime. Now a Soldier/thief with a bardiche is another matter...

 

[Turim]

Kirowan: The thing about Conan you need to realize is that due to the Massive Damage rule most of the classes have the theoretical potential to kill one or maybe even more enemies in the first round of combat, providing they win initiative and the enemies don't have any of these: Undead type, Construct type, Uncanny Dodge, or the Reflexive Parry feat. An archer will cut straight through Reflexive Parry, and a sorcerer doesn't have to worry much about Uncanny Dodge either. As a GM, you still have the option of making combat slower, like D&D, by not min/maxing your NPCs.

1. Crossbows are weak. They should primarily be used by characters with low Str that have only one attack per round. Even for these characters the reload time makes it a one-shot deal, and if the enemy has decent armour it will do little damage. As for bows, a sneak attack archer would probably be quite effective. If you want a non-sneak attack archer, I think you will need to base it on Str, rather than Dex. If you have a low Str, you won't be able to penetrate medium to heavy Damage Reduction. This combined with very little bonus damage will make your total damage terrible, unless you get a critical hit. IMO Ranged Finesse is a dreadful feat that does virtually nothing to help a Dex based archer overcome DR. Hyboria's Finest has the Master Archer, which is a soldier/borderer multiclass concept that gives many useful optional abilities to an archer.

2. IMO they're not. There are two broad circumstances where a thief is allowed a sneak attack. The first is when the target is denied Defense Value, and the second is when flanking the target. In cases where the target is denied DV, a properly built warrior will often be able to Power Attack the enemy for an immense amount of damage, most likely killing it through Massive Damage. The thief is at an advantage relative to the warrior when flanking, but this requires the thief to get pretty close to the enemy, and the typical thief is much less able to withstand attacks than the typical warrior. Also, the warrior should have a fair chance of forcing a Massive Damage save with his normal attacks, although these won't be near automatic kills, unlike the PA and SA attacks. And a properly prepared sorcerer can blow his enemies to smithereens pretty much regardless of circumstances.

Sutek: I think it's unfair to compare the thief's sneak attack damage to a warrior who uses a one-handed 1d8 weapon. Every warrior who has a high Str has the option to take Power Attack and use a two-handed weapon. I believe in comparing the two this potential is what the thief should be balanced against.

 

[Sutek]

Well, compare a STR 20 (+7 damage 2 handed) weilding a Bardiche (2d10). He's only goin got be able to accomplish 27 points of damage, regardless of level. A thief of equal level can eventually top that easily by managing the 3d8 sneak plus weapon damage at 5th level while the Bardiche wielder is still only dealing 27 points max.

 

[Harlequin Jones]

Well, compare a STR 20 (+7 damage 2 handed) weilding a Bardiche (2d10). He's only goin got be able to accomplish 27 points of damage, regardless of level. A thief of equal level can eventually top that easily by managing the 3d8 sneak plus weapon damage at 5th level while the Bardiche wielder is still only dealing 27 points max.

Unless he rolls a critical, then it's 6d10+21 for a maximum of 81 hit points of damage. That's serious.

Yes, thieves do have the edge in dealing massive damage - but it can be tough to get into the position to do so. Fighters can do their solid damage round after round. Our duo of backstabbers got our butts kicked almost every time we were outnumbered; the barbarian among us had no such problem. Not to mention that he could avoid and/or take damage far better than we could.

Think of it as a scale:

Fighter-type:

Dish it: ######
Take it: ######

Thief:

Dish it: #########
Take it: ###


*smirk*
Harley

 

[urdinaran]

As Harlequin said, Fighter-types do more reliable damage round to round. whereas thief-types CAN do alot of damage, but it is conditional. A thief isn't always to flank an opponent after the first round of combat, they usually aren't well-armored, and once they start taking a beating they go down fast.

The last couple of sessions I ran, the Thief actually took some lethal damage, whereas the tanks in the group were mostly taking subdual due to armor.

Thieves are great opportunists, but they can't tank.

 

[argo]

Well, compare a STR 20 (+7 damage 2 handed) weilding a Bardiche (2d10). He's only goin got be able to accomplish 27 points of damage, regardless of level. A thief of equal level can eventually top that easily by managing the 3d8 sneak plus weapon damage at 5th level while the Bardiche wielder is still only dealing 27 points max.

P-O-W-E-R A-T-T-A-C-K

The power attacking THF is king of Massive Dammage. Period. End of story. Plus he doesn't need a flanking buddy to pull it off. And getting suprise/winning initative just means that he can put all of that excess attack bonus (opponent DV 10) into PA.

The crit-centric weapon master is second on the massive damage pyramid. And like the power attacker he doesn't need a flanking buddy either.

The sneak-attacker is a distant third for massive damage pain. Mostly because his damage output os so dependent on circumstances. Circumstances that are often beyond his control.


Oh, and regarding your earlier post. If a soldier is using a one-handed 1d8 weapon it ought to be because he is using his other hand for somethign else. Like maybe to hold a shield .... a quick +4 to his parry DV will prety much guarantee that the thief won't land his itterative attack and will even have a hard time with his main attack.

Later.

 

[Sutek]

First off, are you further emphasizing my belief that the sneak attacking theif (THF) is far more powerful than any class out there??? (lol)

Sans feats, mate. Sneak attack will win out every time. You don't need the feats.

However, I'll see your "power attack" and raise you: Power Attack lets you subtract a number from your attack that you, in turn, add to your damage. It's limited by your BAB, so if we're still going to refer to a 5th level THF versus a 5th level Soldier, the THF can deal loads more damage still.

And to the "frequency of hits" argument I say this: the brawny fighter can hit more often, but if the THF only need get into position to deal multiple sneak attack strikes, then that class is far superior to any fighter type out there. Simply make sure Dodge Defense stays as high as possible and take Improved Inititative.

 

[Trodax]

First off, are you further emphasizing my belief that the sneak attacking theif (THF) is far more powerful than any class out there??? (lol)

I'm pretty sure argo meant the abbreviation THF to stand for Two Handed Fighting (as in Bardiche)... :wink:

Sans feats, mate. Sneak attack will win out every time. You don't need the feats.

Making the comparison without feats makes no sense. A Soldier without his feats is at a disadvantage, of course (feats are his thing, just as sneak attack is the Thief's thing).

However, I'll see your "power attack" and raise you: Power Attack lets you subtract a number from your attack that you, in turn, add to your damage. It's limited by your BAB, so if we're still going to refer to a 5th level THF versus a 5th level Soldier, the THF can deal loads more damage still.

OK, lets compare the 5th level bardiche-wielding Soldier with the 5th level sneak attacking Thief. We'll assume the Soldier has Str 18, and the Thief Dex 18 (not unreasonable with the high ability scores in Conan). The Soldier has a BAB thats two points higher than the Thief, but lets put those two points into Power Attack, leaving them at the same to-hit chance (Soldier uses Str, Thief uses Dex, of course).

The Soldier will now be dealing 2d10+10 damage (+6 for Str, +4 for two-handed Power Attack). Average damage: 21.

If we assume the Thief uses an arming sword and has maybe a Str of 14 (lets be nice), his damage will be 1d10+3d8+2. Average damage: 21.

OK, same chance to hit and same average damage. What we haven't taken into account is that the Soldier can do this every round without restrictions, while the Thief can basically only do it in the first round or when he's flanking. Also, the Soldier's defense will be higher, he'll probably have heavier armour etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong, Sutek, I'm not saying the Thief is underpowered or anything; sneak attackers are real scary in this game. But big blokes with big, two-handed weapons are scary as hell to.

 

[argo]

First off, are you further emphasizing my belief that the sneak attacking theif (THF) is far more powerful than any class out there??? (lol)

Prety sure my post said exactly the opposite of that....

Edit: Ah, now I see the problem
THF = Two Handed Fighting (as in a Bardiche)
TWF = Two Weapon Fighting (as in dual-wielding)
Sword 'n Board = one handed weapon (doesn't have to be a sword) and a shield

Prety common abreviations.

Sans feats, mate. Sneak attack will win out every time. You don't need the feats.

Well, seing as how the Soldiers's entire list of class features basically boils down to "a feat every other level" I'd say that is a prety unreasonable peramater for our debate.

However, I'll see your "power attack" and raise you: Power Attack lets you subtract a number from your attack that you, in turn, add to your damage. It's limited by your BAB, so if we're still going to refer to a 5th level THF versus a 5th level Soldier, the THF can deal loads more damage still.

Trodax already answered this one so I'll save myself the time. The only thing I'd add to his analysis is that the thief and soldier do not have the same chance to-hit; the soldier has a good Parry rogression while the thief has a medium Dodge progression meaning that at 5th level the soldier will have a DV 1 higher than the thief (before considerign any feats ... of course :roll: ).

And as Trodax himslef pointed out, thats not even considering the effects of armor.

And to the "frequency of hits" argument I say this: the brawny fighter can hit more often, but if the THF only need get into position to deal multiple sneak attack strikes, then that class is far superior to any fighter type out there. Simply make sure Dodge Defense stays as high as possible and take Improved Inititative.

Thats a specious argument. First of all you keep overlooking the fact that "getting into position" requires the help of another friend who isn't too busy doing something else. Secondly "getting into position" is a major weakness of sneak attack preciesly because it is something that may not exist in every combat scenario and furtermore is something that the opponent can and will take measures to avoid (simply backing into a corner prevents flanking ... 100% effective ). IME the most common Sneak Attack condition is the suprise round, the second most common is winning initative. Thats good for the thief, thats a lot of damage he can contribute (and more importantly a lot of damage he can save the party from taking by possibly dropping one or two foes before they get a chance to do anything) but it is no match for the pain a real melee fighter can inflict once the battle gets under way.

And last but not least: you still have failed to address the most important counter-point of all. Thief's are soft targets. Many a thief has been torn to ribbons by a bardiche-wielding meathead while trying to "get in position". As in "killed before he could manage to get a sneak attack off".

Hope that helps.

 

[Sutek]

It helps. However, it still doesn't convince me that thieves aren't the better combat option. They deliver more damage in only slightly less frequency than soldiers or barbarians.

I thin you're also forgetting that a theif moving in for the attack in the first round is a dumb one. But that's the same for a soldier going in on the first round unsupported - his armor can be bypassed just as easily. What thieves have in thier favor is that flanking is incredibly easy to accomplish, and that's all that's needed to pull off a sneak attack. At 5th level, a thief can dish out 3d8+weapon damage, and that's most often goin gto be 4d8 if the player is arming him "properly." A soldier of equal level can only manage 2d10+STR+Feats (20+5+7=32max) and that's going to still be only a match for the thief's 32 sneak damage.

However, by the time those two classes are 8th level (the point at which a thief gains multiple sneak attack capability) the Soldier can manage that same average damage twice (15 x 2 = 30), with better frequency of hitting to inflict it granted, but held up to the thief's now average sneak attack capability of 20 average (5d8 average rolls) twice per round, that 40 point average sneak opportunity is far better. And it only get's moreso because while the soldier's weapon damage doesn't increase at any rate (although STR can, but only every 6th level) the thief's weapon damage increases not only by die type but also by the quantity of those dice.

Now, by 11th level it would seem to be in favor of the soldier again (3x the damage potentially because of 3 attacks) but the theif is now at a sneak attack of 2x6d8+wpn - average of around 28 twice a round, max around 56, 28 average. The soldier can still only manage a max of 3x 2d10+5+7, or a 96 max, 32 average.

Better numbers you say? Not when taking into account finesse and the fact that sneak attacking isn't a full round action. If both classes move into combat (as was the initial precept of this debate) both will be limited to a single strike - 56 max, 28 average for the thief on a single sneak attack at 8th level; 32 max, 16 average for the soldier.

Huge difference.

 

[High Lord Dee]

It is really not even worth going through the numbers. Thieves are not even designed to be in front row combat. It is always a great rush when the usually reserved thief can get in the odd sneak attack but soldiers will always be the more valuable in combat. That is why things such as sneak attack and additional skills were given to the Thief class in the first place. Bribery to the players to consider running one? Maybe. Thieves can be much more interesting to play due to the expanded skills and unique skill sets. But they cannot last long in the world if they are going to try rushing in to combat to get that one shot at glory. Restrictions on armor and lower hit points ensure that.

The goal is to create characters who, through the laws of statistics, have a better chance of contributing and surviving over the long run.

 

[Sutek]

I agree - it's all about role playing.

However, part of the original question in the thread was "because of base DV when flat footed, are thieves too powerful" or something to that effect. I'm supporting the fact that they are. With only a DV10 to strike at, the chances of a finesse blow landing more damage than a standard blow are better when the target is caught flat footed. It's hugely better because the thief gets a better opportunity for more damge. Withthe primary mechanic of Conan combat being to beat the Massive Damage value of 20 with each blow, thives have an easier time of focing that save and killing targets faster. At least in my estimation.

 

[High Lord Dee]

I agree - it's all about role playing.

However, part of the original question in the thread was "because of base DV when flat footed, are thieves too powerful" or something to that effect. I'm supporting the fact that they are. With only a DV10 to strike at, the chances of a finesse blow landing more damage than a standard blow are better when the target is caught flat footed. It's hugely better because the thief gets a better opportunity for more damge. Withthe primary mechanic of Conan combat being to beat the Massive Damage value of 20 with each blow, thives have an easier time of focing that save and killing targets faster. At least in my estimation.

One factor to consider would be the fact that thieves generally will not be engaged in melee as often as the soldier or the barbarian. This becomes important since rolling dice is about the law of averages. Massive damage values caused by criticals could/should exceed those that offer the thief the same opportunities to generate a sneak attack.

 

[Trodax]

Sutek, first of all you should, like argo said earlier in this thread, always use average damage values when comparing damage output. For example, 2d10+14 (average 25, max 34) is better than 5d8 (average 22, max 40). Why is the maximum not important? Because, when rolling large numbers of dice, you will basically never get the maximum result (rolling 40 on 5d8 has a chance of 0,003%).

EDIT: Well, actually there is one situation when the maximum becomes important: Fate points.

And it only get's moreso because while the soldier's weapon damage doesn't increase at any rate (although STR can, but only every 6th level) the thief's weapon damage increases not only by die type but also by the quantity of those dice.

Not completely true. While the Thief's damage does increase a lot with rising levels, so can the Soldiers'. Remember that the Soldier has a better BAB than the Thief. Well all those extra points to hit can potentially be converted into damage with Power Attack (on a 2-1 basis with a two-handed weapon). He can also get stuff like Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical and Greater Critical to further beef up his damage. And because of the bonus to hit from Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, he can, again, afford to put more points into Power Attack.

To answer the original question again:
Because of flat-footed DV and Massive Damage, are Thieves deadly in the first round? Hell yeah!
Are they therefore the best combat build in the game? No.

In my experience, the deadliest guy in the game is the dude with high Str+two-handed weapon+Power Attack. The potential damage dealt by this sucker is tremendous!
Add in Cleave (and why not Great Cleave) and he'll also have the ability to mow down hordes of mooks like no other (better than the guy with two-weapon fighting, in my experience).
I actually think this guy is more of a 'problem' than sneak attackers. The damage of two-handed weapons in Conan is almost a little to much for my taste...

 

[Korppis]

Because of flat-footed DV and Massive Damage, are Thieves deadly in the first round? Hell yeah!

Well, it depends... Only if at the start of a battle thief is close enough that he can use all his attacks with full round action. Slightly less deathly if he can make only one attack (max 30ft distance, iirc 40ft with light footed).

Yep, sneak attacking with 5d8 can do max 40 points of damage... but also it is possible and you roll poorly and make only 5 points. In the various examples soldied with 2-handed weapon has minimum damage at least 12-15points and average damage abouy same as thieves sneak attack.

Also, in experiences with my own gaming group, moving to the flank position is not just piece of cake if your do not outnumber your opponents. (And of course, fighting 1 on 1 this never happends) This means that if thief is facing soldier 1 on 1 he is maybe able to make sneak attack on first round of combat if he is able to get close enough that he can move and attack before soldiers first round. After the first round he is able to sneak attack only by feinting (without improved feinting feat this mean you have to sacrifice one turn, and soldier gets his BAB as bonus on his sense motive).

Edit:
I almost forget... Soldier also has propably more hit points / level than thief... he rolls his hp:s with d10 and also your average soldier has con as his second highest priority after str. So i'd say that soldier could also take one average sneak attack more than thief could handle his standard attacks.

 

[Oly]

I'll also back up Korppis by saying that in the combats I've run the Pirate PC doesn't get to do that many sneak attacks at all. He's very aware of the rules about how to get them and works hard to get into the right positions but it's still tricky. The Barbarian player is a far more dangerous character in combat and she's not all that familiar with the rules either. Heaven help the bad guys if she ever uses the rules as well as the Pirate does.