Some questions about rune magic

[Host of Angels]

OK - a detailed reading threw up a couple of issues:

1) Once a rune is integrated it can't be integrated by anyone else - I get that. But it goes on to say only "powerful magic" can part a character from his runes. Now, does this imply that you cannot physically remove a character's runes, by say - picking his pocket? Or what about a careless shaman leaving one on the bus? If you can't physically remove a rune - what is the mechanism. If you can - then the implication is that all rune bearers will be paranoid about loosing the damn things.

2) What happens if your magic points drop to zero? I seem to recall in previous editions that you go unconscious. Or was this a house rule I made up? Either way what happens in MRQ?

3) If I know a spell with a Casting Time of 1 (say Befuddle) and have 3 Combat Actions available to me – can I attempt to cast this spell 3 times in the round AND slowly walk one and a half times my movement (i.e. Half move each action)?

Answers on a postcard...

 

[RosenMcStern]

1) It has not been clarified, IMO. In some cases it looks like the rune is incorporated in the caster's body, in other examples it is different.

2) I think you go unconscious.

3) I think yes. However, you cannot cast more than one DIVINE spell per round, no matter how many CAs you have.

 

[Mugen]

OK - a detailed reading threw up a couple of issues:

1) Once a rune is integrated it can't be integrated by anyone else - I get that. But it goes on to say only "powerful magic" can part a character from his runes. Now, does this imply that you cannot physically remove a character's runes, by say - picking his pocket? Or what about a careless shaman leaving one on the bus? If you can't physically remove a rune - what is the mechanism. If you can - then the implication is that all rune bearers will be paranoid about loosing the damn things.

My understanding of the official rules is that a rune may only be integrated to one character at once. However, you still need to carry it to use its magic. That means that if you steal an integrated rune from someone, neither you nor him can use it.

Personally, I don't like to think runes as physical objects. In my view, once you integrate a rune, it disappear from its original location and becomes imprinted on your body. It normally takes the form of a tatoo-like drawing or a strange birthmark, but it can appear anywhere on your body.

Once you're dead, the rune disappears from your body. It is possible for a character touching you to integrate the rune, but usually it gets imprinted in the nearest object.

Rosen already answered 2) and 3).

 

[elgrin]

OK - a detailed reading threw up a couple of issues:

1) Once a rune is integrated it can't be integrated by anyone else - I get that. But it goes on to say only "powerful magic" can part a character from his runes. Now, does this imply that you cannot physically remove a character's runes, by say - picking his pocket? Or what about a careless shaman leaving one on the bus? If you can't physically remove a rune - what is the mechanism. If you can - then the implication is that all rune bearers will be paranoid about loosing the damn things.

My understanding of the official rules is that a rune may only be integrated to one character at once. However, you still need to carry it to use its magic. That means that if you steal an integrated rune from someone, neither you nor him can use it.

Personally, I don't like to think runes as physical objects. In my view, once you integrate a rune, it disappear from its original location and becomes imprinted on your body. It normally takes the form of a tatoo-like drawing or a strange birthmark, but it can appear anywhere on your body.

Once you're dead, the rune disappears from your body. It is possible for a character touching you to integrate the rune, but usually it gets imprinted in the nearest object.

Rosen already answered 2) and 3).

Nice one Mugen,
My players already have their Runes as tattoos, but your logic has a much better feel than the explanation I have been using. Another house rule for the game then!

elgrin

 

[Host of Angels]

thanks for the clarifications and ideas...

 

[gran_orco]

However, some items help you. The rune shield can hold a lot of runes, for exemple. Officialy you must hold the rune to cast magic, so you could lose the rune. This issue should be answered by mongoose. My players have lost 5 runes and they can not integrate another of the same type!

 

[Halfbat]

There's no stating that a character can't integrate another of the same type (that I can find, at least).

There's also a nice mention in the rulebook that's often missed that "Runes may not normally be removed once integrated, though it is possible that particularly powerful magic would be able to part a character from his rune (without killing him)."

I think it's the "hold to cast" usage statement that means GMs & players assume the Rune is still loose, whereas the Rune of Chaos scenario assumed it would be absorbed into the body in some form. Presumably this latter case is what was meant by the Runes (so new and spreading tatoos are a good interpretation of this). As RosenMcStern said, it's a bit unclear, though.

 

[Loz]

My interpretation of integration is not that you physically absorb the rune, but you do create a spiritual relationship with it, understanding the rune's power and nature at a subconscious and spiritual level. The physical manifestion of the rune then channels that relationship in the form of magical effects. Spells are the codes that direct the runic power into a particular form.

So, severing an integrated rune from a person means severing that spiritual relationship. Losing the rune itself doesn't do that, but it means that the magic cannot be harnessed and manipulated. I suppose that, in theory, finding another instance of a lost or stolen physical rune would reinstate the power, unless, in your campaign, each manifestation of the same rune has some unique aspect that requires a discrete integration attempt.

I'm all for getting runes tattooed, inscribed, inlaid and so forth. These are great ways of maintaining and displaying runic affinity without having to grasp a rune in your hand when casting its associated magic.

 

[gran_orco]

There's no stating that a character can't integrate another of the same type (that I can find, at least).

Rune Powers supplement:
Bonding with Two Identical Runes
"It is not normally possible to bond with a particular rune type twice. In other words, a character cannot bond with two Death runes in order to gain two of that rune’s powers.
However, if a character of Hero-level or greater experience wishes to, he may attempt to integrate a second rune of a particular type. This applies a
–100% penalty on the necessary Persistence test and if successful, the Rune Touched loses two points of POW. He does, however, gain a second runic power associated with that rune.
One side-benefi t of becoming integrated with two identical runes is that the character may now permanently sense the exact location of any other
runes of that type within his POW x 10 in metres."

Another question: I must hold with the hands the rune to gain its power, or could I gain the same bonus if it is touching the flesh of any part of the body? I think that it is the second option.

 

[zozotroll]

What is this Rune Powers Suplement? I have not seen that one.

 

[B_Steele]

Quick replies as I see them...

1) Once a rune is integrated it can't be integrated by anyone else - I get that. But it goes on to say only "powerful magic" can part a character from his runes. Now, does this imply that you cannot physically remove a character's runes, by say - picking his pocket? Or what about a careless shaman leaving one on the bus? If you can't physically remove a rune - what is the mechanism. If you can - then the implication is that all rune bearers will be paranoid about loosing the damn things.

Runes cannot be separated from the person who integrated them. Think of it as a magical tether to the item the Rune is part of. So no, it means that without special circumstances, the Rune cannot be lifted off the character. This could be as easy as the thing being impossible to remove, or that it instantly reappears in the possession of its integrated owner when the thief/pickpocket blinks. We are talking about tiny pieces of raw magic, so it can be really up to the GM.

2) What happens if your magic points drop to zero? I seem to recall in previous editions that you go unconscious. Or was this a house rule I made up? Either way what happens in MRQ?

You cannot cast spells. That's it. You don't pass out anymore...because that was too limiting to magic-wielding characters.

3) If I know a spell with a Casting Time of 1 (say Befuddle) and have 3 Combat Actions available to me – can I attempt to cast this spell 3 times in the round AND slowly walk one and a half times my movement (i.e. Half move each action)?

Yup. Just keep in mind the Magic Point costs and the fact that you would need the runes in hand for every casting, which could be problematic when you need a weapon for parrying, etc.

Hope that helps!

Bry

 

[B_Steele]

What is this Rune Powers Suplement?

It is an optional set of alternate Runic rules that are avaialble as a pdf download on Drive Through RPG.

-Bry

 

[Shadow Queen]

im just going to wate till i get my spell book

 

[zozotroll]

Thanks. I might need to check them out.

 

[gran_orco]

Runes cannot be separated from the person who integrated them. Think of it as a magical tether to the item the Rune is part of. So no, it means that without special circumstances, the Rune cannot be lifted off the character. This could be as easy as the thing being impossible to remove, or that it instantly reappears in the possession of its integrated owner when the thief/pickpocket blinks. We are talking about tiny pieces of raw magic, so it can be really up to the GM.

Magic FAQ

Q: The rules say you cannot remove someone’s integrated rune, but they also seem to indicate that they are physical objects that you bind to. What stops enemies just taking them?
A: Nothing, really! Once a rune has been integrated to one character, it can never be integrated with someone else, unless the first character dies. You can never take that away from someone. However, a rune has to be in the physical possession of a character to gain its runic power. If he leaves it at home or it is stolen, it is still integrated (cannot take that away, remember) but he no longer has the benefits of its runic power.

Is this what are you saying? I thought that "cannot take that away" was meaning that the rune would be integrated with the rune touched forever (until he dies), but not that the rune could not be lifted off the character (how could I leave it at home, if not?) I do not undestand this Could you explain it, please?. However, in this case... could I gain the rune power if it is touching the flesh of any part of the body? Or must I hold it in hand?

 

[Halfbat]

There's no stating that a character can't integrate another of the same type [in the core rules - intention meant].

Rune Powers supplement: Bonding with Two Identical Runes .... "It is not normally possible to bond with a particular rune type twice. In other words, a character cannot bond with two Death runes in order to gain two of that rune’s powers. [...-100% Persistence...]

Except that "Monster's" has exactly that - 9 Undead Runes Integrated to become a Vampire (e.g. 19 POW, at least!) with a Persistence of only 75%.

[Mongoose Steele's ideas][What stops enemies taking them] A: Nothing, really! Once a rune has been integrated to one character, it can never be integrated with someone else, unless the first character dies. You can never take that away from someone. However, a rune has to be in the physical possession of a character to gain its runic power. If he leaves it at home or it is stolen, it is still integrated but he no longer has the benefits of its runic power.[Confusion]

I think there are interpretative contradictions, here, that need to be accepted. And, therefore, interpreted as you wish :wink: . Some games have them as things that need to be held, others as things that are absorbed into the body (RoC-style, again, or perhaps appear as tatoos or blemishes) that don't need to be "held" to cast a spell.

Gaining the Runic Power is automatic providing it is in his 'physical possession' - which I take to be amongst his pack, pockets and within .5-1m of his body for characters who use actual things.

In use, I tend to allow several approaches to being able to cast magic, as appropriate for the game I'm running: holding the Rune 'thing', having it absorbed and appearing as a sign (a small-ish glowing birthmark), or it just being near/on the body of the character. I'd suggest the decision of what rules to accept or bend (and what supplemental rules to accept or bend) depends on the style of campaign; if a slightly more magic-focussed campaign is required, then to be able to cast spells without the preceding 2 Combat-Action "I put my weapon away, take out my Rune" is, experience shows, quite useful.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

It might help to look at the reasons behind the rules, then you can determine how and why you might want to vary them.

"You must hold the (physical) Runes to cast a spell"
This actually goes back to the original RQ rules, where casting a spell generally required a focus - often carved on a wand, but potentially enscribed on a sword (for bladesharp), shield (for protection) etc, or tattooed on the caster's body (with the caveat that if you are captured and your captives want to remove your spell focii it might get messy). In practice, as with a lot of D&D spell components this was largly glossed over (at least in groups I encountered). The RAW suggest that when you find a physical rune you integrate it to gain the Runepower, but must keep that specific item in order to cast runemagic. I'd suggest this is not the case, and any suitable representation of the rune can be used. Thus a captor can strip a prisoner of his runestones to prevent his use of magic, but he can't then drop them in an ocean to prevent the prisoner from ever casting magic again if he is subsequently released.

An interesting varient rule might be that after a person dies their integrated runes reappear in the original runestones - making it very unlikely a spellcaster will use the originals so as not to become a target for rune-hunting assassins - this allows for the rune-touched to potentially leave their runes to their heirs...

"Only one person can integrate an instance of a physical Rune"
This is fairly obvious. If any Rune that a person discovered could be integrated by that person, then passed on and integrated by another person then pretty much the only limit on which runes someone could integrate would be their POW. It means if the GM puts a Death Rune in his adventure, only one adventurer is going to get to cast Death Magic rather than all of them. The downside is that if cults use/teach rune magic for their cult runes then they probably need a plentiful source of the appropriate runes

"You can only integrate one instance of each rune"
Not specifically stated in the Core Rules, but other than the Vampire in the Monsters book, there doesn't seem much point in doing so. The Runic Powers PDF apparently provides bonuses for multiple instances of the same rune, but makes it harder to integrate more than one. Steve Perrins original playtest draft rules also worked on the assumption that you could integrate more than one instance of a rune with increasing bonuses. If pc's can't integrate more than one instance of a rune then you are more likely to get them looking to trade "common" runes for cash, training or more "uncommon" runes, since their is no benefit in keeping them.

"Rune Integration is for life"
Again, this prevents players from trading runes around (although the POW cost of integration will also discourage this. If some runes are mutually incompatible, or forbidden to members of some cults then it also makes thinking ahead more important.
Having invested POW in integrating a rune, it makes sense that it should be permanent - you don't want to go to all the time and trouble of locating, recovering and integrating a rune for some 2-bit NPC (or even someone else's amoral PC) to come along and half-inch it!
On the other hand, there may be times when you do want to relinquish a rune - When an aforementioned incompatibility exists, when it is the only thing you can offer to ransom your life, or when you want to retire from adventuring and pass on an inheritance to your son for instance. I did consider a mechanism where you could attempt to revoke a rune, with each attempt costing a minimum of 1 POW...

 

[Rurik]

Bryan had pointed out in a previous thread on this subject that the Core rulebooks pretty clearly implies you can Integrate more than one rune. It states you still sacrifice POW but do not get any additional Runic Bonuses. Note that this is NOT in the SRD, only the actual rulebook.

There is also apparently some stuff in the upcomming spellbook where there is an advantage to integrating more than one of the same rune.

I had always interpreted runes as being able to be stolen as well, which is a big disadvantage. But since it seems you CAN integrate a second rune of the same type it does not permenantly strip you of your ability to cast spells that use that rune - but you will need to find and integrate another rune (and sacrifice the POW). Which is actually all fine by me - protect your runes man!

I like the Runic Powers PDF a lot, but subsequent books coming out seem to contradict some of it's material, so it is being somewhat obsoleted. There is still good material in there, I would have to say though that integrating a second rune as in the 'core' rules would not give a second roll on the runic powers table.

 

[RosenMcStern]

"You can only integrate one instance of each rune"
Not specifically stated in the Core Rules, but other than the Vampire in the Monsters book, there doesn't seem much point in doing so.

There are spells in the Spellbook that require two instances of the same rune to be integrated.

"Rune Integration is for life"
On the other hand, there may be times when you do want to relinquish a rune - When an aforementioned incompatibility exists, when it is the only thing you can offer to ransom your life, or when you want to retire from adventuring and pass on an inheritance to your son for instance. I did consider a mechanism where you could attempt to revoke a rune, with each attempt costing a minimum of 1 POW...

As already stated, I am strongly in favour of this. In fact, this voluntary release of the rune would solve a lot of problems.

 

[ned_plants]

My own ruling is as follows:

Common Runes are the physical type mentioned in the main rulebook. Once integrated they remain physical and can be lost or stolen; however the character who has integrated them retains a link to them and can find them again by expending a magic point. How much information this gives is governed by the distance between them -- if the rune is several miles he might merely get a direction; if he is in the same room the location will be detailed, i.e. "In that guy's pocket."

Divine Runes are effectively non-physical though they may appear as a tatoo or othe physical mark. They cannot be removed by normal means. These come in two types:
Spell runes -- These permit you to cast your cult spells, nothing more. You cannot cast any other spells using that rune nor do you gain runic powers. These are automatically granted to everyone of initiate or higher rank.
True runes -- These are granted directly by the god and in all way as regular runes. Olny the cult runes may be gained in this way, not any that are merely used in cult spells -- thus Humakt can only grant the Truth and Death rune even though his cult teachs Bladesharp which requires Metal. To petition the god for a rune the candidate must sacrifice a point of POW and make a test of POW+CHA modified by rank: Lay members -20%, Initiates +0%, Acolytes +20%, Rune Lords and Priests +40%.

I welcome opinions.