Some of the new ships/fleets

[Locutus9956]

Well it's been a while since 2nd Ed's release now and after plenty of time for the 'veterans' of the game to muck about with and digest the game I'm interested to hear some opinions on a few ships that have raised eyebrows at our local club:

The Gaim Stuteek War Carrier - Try as I might I cant help but view this little smegger as just a tad on the 'broken beyond words' side. Yes its hull 4, but with the revised beam rules and the ability to stand off right at the back and still be fully effective its alot harder to kill than I think people give it credit for and 24 fighters on a raid level ship, even crappy ones is just over the top in my oppinion.

The Demos Warship - I wouldnt go so far as to say outright broken but I just feel that when put up against the Vorchan it stands out as being clearly better in almost any situation to my mind. We're experimenting with the idea of houseruling it to 8AD of Ion cannons and so far that seems to be ok, but this needs alot more testing before Id say its the way to go.

The Hunter Experimental Warship - Just my personal opinion but Hull 6, good hit points, self repair AND stealth is pushing it. It may only have one weapon by dear GOD what a sick weapon it is. The problem with beam weapons with high modifiers and precice is that they tend to hugely accentuate good or bad luck with your beam rolls rendering them eitehr fairly innefective or hideously over the top. Id drop it to hull 5 and maybe give it 5 a few more hitpoints. But this still pales in comparison to my major sticking point with the Psi Corps.....

The Mothership - Seriously. Compare it to a Hyperion. Or a Sullust. Or even a whitestar. But mainly stack it up next to that Hyperion, its basically the same sort of ship but has 4 times the fighters, and the fighters it carries are immensely superior, has nearly double the beam range (and just as much beam firepower), double the interceptors, TRIPLE the antifighter (as if it needs it what with already having the Black omegas to cover it...), Psychic crew AND stealth. Oh and more troops. And for all this it loses 1 point of hull (which I would say might JUST account for the stealth score but all the rest? Nah. It may lack an aft arc but it has a 30. Inch. Beam. It will rarely NEED that aft arc.

So then, any thoughts folks? Any other ships worthy of rantage I have missed?

 

[Burger]

Rant about twofes! (Tethys, Sho'whatever, Haven)

 

[No. 1 Bear]

No actually i have found twofers to be worse than what you get back. Giving back the vps for a patrol ship. Being easy to kill they can generally loose you the game. But this is whe its being played wth a balanced fleet adding a few of them in. On their own they are just horrible unless you deal with them quickly.

As for the mothership i do feel its a bit OTT. facing them in an average sized game. I found that they were really only succeptable to beam weaponry and concentrated close range weapons. The problem with this is that you need to get in range and pass stealth.
The hunters not too bad but then it did get beamed to death.

I think the jakashar tae is verging on the brink. The g'quan and bimith are underpowered.

 

[katadder]

the stuteeka is no worse than facing 2 saggis or something like that. it only has 24 crewed missiles then its reduced to 6AD of e-mines. not alot of firepower. especially if you intercept the fighters with your own on that turn before they hit, or even use main/secondary guns to blow them out the sky.

 

[Da Boss]

I have concerns about the Gaim fleet but not really played them enough to say for sure but concerned ...............

Nothing else really too strong springs to mind - a few things too weak Abai ships, Fireraptor, Shadow fighter), or too small a fleet list (Vorlons,Shadows, Abbai, Raiders), Demos could go to 8AD to make the Vorchan a choice but then some Centauri players till prefer it - i'll take the interceptors and torps thanks and CBD on alt turns.............

but otherwise its all good

 

[Karhedron]

My first battle against the Gaim will be next Tuesday so I will give you my oppinion then. I agree that on paper the Stuteeka looks pretty good but I will have to see it in action before I pass judgement. Admittedly I am seriously considering one as an ally for my ISA fleet. 8)

the stuteeka is no worse than facing 2 saggis or something like that. it only has 24 crewed missiles then its reduced to 6AD of e-mines.

While that is true, it is not just the guided missile aspect. Since the Stuteeka is a Fleet Carrier, those fighters are Dogfight 2+ making them pretty effective light fighters in their own right, particularly when they gang up on the enemy (easy when you outnumber them so much). So you can clear the enemy sky of fighters (to stop them dogfighting the even sicker Gaim breaching pods) and then still go kamikaze against the big enemy ships. And don't forget that those guided missiles ignore both Stealth and Interceptors. Only AF/AAF has a chance of stopping them and the enemy will need a lot of that.

Oh and if you are playing a campaign, all lost fighters are replaced at the end of the turn. :shock:

I am not saying it's broken but it certainly looks strong on paper. :?

The Demos Warship - I wouldnt go so far as to say outright broken but I just feel that when put up against the Vorchan it stands out as being clearly better in almost any situation to my mind.

Having had my butt spanked by the Centauri a couple of times, I think that both the Vorchan and the Demos (but more so the Demos) are rather overpowered. The number of dice they can chuck out is very high and lots of it is double damage, twin-linked or precise.

OK their firpower is all forward facing but they are fast and manouvrable so this tends not to present a problem. Their only serious vulnerability is against fighters but since their are cheap at skirmish PL, you can usually afford to take some fighters of your own (or even a Balvarin) to cover their backs. I have not yet figured out a way of beating the Vorchan/Demos wolfpack fleet. The only thing I can think of is going heavy on breaching pods but that seems a bit unfluffy. These ships definitely need a few AD shaving off their weapons IMHO.

 

[Target]

EA EY & 3rd age can do it. Interceptors, Nova's & Olympii are the bane of these ships but the Demos does need a it's ion cannons toned down.
I really hate the Olympus, turreted railgun & missles. The guy i play against always takes the multi warhead against me so our interceptors are useless.

 

[Karhedron]

EA EY & 3rd age can do it. Interceptors, Nova's & Olympii are the bane of these ships but the Demos does need a it's ion cannons toned down.

Hmm, hull 5 ships and only 1 or 2 Interceptors a piece. Vorchans/Demos will outnumber them 2:1 and will burn through those interceptors pretty fast. Plus Demos can sit outside their range and still fire it's missiles.

Turn 1: Demos closes blast doors and moves to 12-20" range, fires off its missiles and its target cannot fire back as both Nova and Olympus have only 12" range guns. It also gets a 5+ save against anything that moves in later in the turn.

Turn 2: Missiles reloading so close blast doors again, close to within 12" and open up. No real reduction in firepower since the missiles are reloading anyway. Lots of TL DD attacks and still a 5+ save against the target's return fire and 1D of interceptor on the Demos just to take the edge off the attack too.

Gaim with Hull 6 and lots of Interceptors would probably do well as their Photon bombs would cause a lot of casualties in a tightly packed fleet. Also their breaching pods would do nasty things to the lightly crewed Vorchans/Demos. However that is one of the slight weaknesses of ACTA. They way that certain abilities cancel out others leeds to Rock/Scissors/Paper between certain fleets.

 

[Target]

How are the Olympii getting outnumbered 2:1
Olympii have 30" missles suppose depends on what you are using :shock:
Remember Other ships can also do 5+ save as well .
How are your 1 die interceptors better than theirs, also take the edge off t attacks. Have we forgot about the fighters as well, this is all dependant on fleet list though. 3rd age take t bolts ouch.
As stated missles ignore your interceptors alas only AP,Precise. If you are going to take 10 Demos i'd guess they will take 10 Olympii for arguement sake. It will be a 50/50 match. Depends if the olympii weather the intial storm because once they are amongst your fleet you are in a word of pain but also depends how many of you Demos get through with no crits in turn 1 & what the are. They may even go with mix of Multi warhead & Heavies on there ships. 2AD SAP TD on turret with a 4AD Railgun plus twinlink or pulse depending on era will eat your interceptors real quick & hurt like hell.
It's a lot tougher fight than you are making it out to be.
Olympii are damn good & doesn't matter where the opponent is they get hit but it matters to you.
I know this because i play EA a lot with my Centauri.

 

[Karhedron]

How are the Olympii getting outnumbered 2:1
Olympii have 30" missles suppose depends on what you are using :shock:

True, I was thinking specifically Novae in this case. I guess 10 Olympii vs 10 Vorchan/Demos would probably be closer than I had thought but then the Olympus is also considered one of the stronger skirmish PL ships.

 

[katadder]

I would even consider 10 artemis. 2 interceptors, ok they havent the range but unlike the demos/vorchan the artemis have DD railguns in every arc that match the ion cannons range. not as many AD but get ships in a couple of arcs and have fun. hell you can even APTE past some demos and you can fire but they cant.

 

[Banichi]

I think the vorchan is great. If it got toned down we would end up with all those 'The vorchan is too weak' threads that were on the forum pre 2e. I'd have to agree about the demos though. They are a wee bit too good (more than a wee bit according to the guys I play against.) and do make it hard to take vorchans. Which is a bit of a shame, seeing as how they are cool now.

My only other real beef is with what happened to the bimith. Was the 1e bimith such a monster that it warranted being hobbled, and having its attack dice reduced? I played against them, and with them, and never really found them to be overpowered. Ok, all those dice were scary, but at 8 inch range, and with no other trait except TL, they didn't seem to be broken. As for the ship now being lumbering!? In 1e it took a bit of planning to make sure it was were you needed it, now it doesn't look like you would get more than one or two shots with the ship per game. The combination of short range weapons and lumbering make it kind of easy to avoid.

 

[Ripple]

OTT -

Demos - just a bit much

Gaim - still finding the wall of fighters, breaching pods and mines too much, but we play with a lot of smaller ships and the e mines are not a nuissance if your in a skirmish hull. If their ships were more fragile it would be fine, I could get a kill or two in from range, but their all tough and high hull/intercpetor/af (aaf?)

Whitestar - only slightly, and we haven't played them enough to really know, yet, but the old one was a winning ship and the new one is better.

Vree skirmish carrier - four really good bombers on a solid combat hull is too much... especially as they are bomber that don't need escorts most of the time.

Too weak -

Abbai - virtually across the board they have a few issues, but the kotha, bimith and shyarie are worthless... The Lakara cannot deal with maneuverable ships at all, up side is the tiraca/brisaria are still nice and the juyaca is okay (though useless against the drahk raider fleet she's supposedly designed to fight). Milani is okay, could use carrier 1 even, or a kotha upgrade... but eh...or access to the gravitic shifter (the brakiri got our comm disruptor, only fair... might even make a good bimith weapon).

G'quan could use a little something...

 

[Triggy]

OTT -

Demos - just a bit much

Gaim - still finding the wall of fighters, breaching pods and mines too much, but we play with a lot of smaller ships and the e mines are not a nuissance if your in a skirmish hull. If their ships were more fragile it would be fine, I could get a kill or two in from range, but their all tough and high hull/intercpetor/af (aaf?)

Whitestar - only slightly, and we haven't played them enough to really know, yet, but the old one was a winning ship and the new one is better.

Vree skirmish carrier - four really good bombers on a solid combat hull is too much... especially as they are bomber that don't need escorts most of the time.

Too weak -

Abbai - virtually across the board they have a few issues, but the kotha, bimith and shyarie are worthless... The Lakara cannot deal with maneuverable ships at all, up side is the tiraca/brisaria are still nice and the juyaca is okay (though useless against the drahk raider fleet she's supposedly designed to fight). Milani is okay, could use carrier 1 even, or a kotha upgrade... but eh...or access to the gravitic shifter (the brakiri got our comm disruptor, only fair... might even make a good bimith weapon).

G'quan could use a little something...

I agree with a lot of the comments here and would summarise my thoughts as follows:

Broken too good ships:
Stuteeka War Carrier - very tough, as many fighters as you should get even without the ship and the Fleet Carrier trait on top! Most broken ship in the game.
Demos - Would be as good as the Vorchan but has an Interceptor too. Needs to lose a few AD of ion cannon.

Better than average:
Shuuka Queen - Needs the number of photon bombs reducing. Currently it can clear every fighter in the enemy fleet and is still a useful ship.
Skrunnka Assault Ship - Too many Breaching Pods with the extra Gaim rules.
G'Vrahn - Could do with a reduction of 15-20% in Damage/Crew to make it a tough choice between this and the balanced Bin'Tak.
White Star I/II - Got a firepower upgrade but no compensation in reduction (e.g. boresight).
Psi Corps Mothership - A little too good but would only need a small drop in fighters or Stealth.
Xeel - Similarly, is about as good as the other Skirmish PL choices but has fighters too.
Black Omega wing - Better value than most fighters.

Underpowered ships:
Bimith - Needs its turns back and to lose Lumbering. Maybe an AD or two as well.
Shadow Fighter wing - Needs an extra flight or two per wing.
Shadowfury wing - Needs to be two per wing.


Actually there aren't too many ships that really need change, but the ones that absolutely need something are the Stuteeka and the Demos (it's a lot like the 1st ed. White Star and Minbari issues). With them changed, even the good and bad choices won't be so extreme.

 

[katadder]

stuteeka really isnt that tough. ok its got 24 fighters, but they are no better than the missiles from any EA ship. ok they ignore interceptors but can be stopped by enemy fighters and AF grid.
after the fighters are gone its firepower is negligable, 6AD of AP e-mines is not alot for a raid ship.

 

[Triggy]

stuteeka really isnt that tough. ok its got 24 fighters, but they are no better than the missiles from any EA ship. ok they ignore interceptors but can be stopped by enemy fighters and AF grid.
after the fighters are gone its firepower is negligable, 6AD of AP e-mines is not alot for a raid ship.

Maybe not, but it's the entire package - Fleet Carrier means you can't shoot down their fighters as effectively, it's very tough for a Raid PL ship, it can launch its fighters very rapidly and just the fighters alone would almost be worth a Raid PL choice. Add on to that a few Breaching Pods, some photon bombs and that it can be taken by any League or ISA fleet and support them, it becomes pretty awesome (not necessarily in large numbers but one or a few are a long way above the curve).

 

[katadder]

if they stay as fighters sure it can recover them. but once changed to crewed missiles it cant recover them. and that means its firepower is severely limited.

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Do you really think its Ok?

 

[SylvrDragon]

I could not agree more about the Hunter!!!!! Last night I played a 5 point war against Psi Corps, against me as Dilgar, and he had a squad of 3 of those little bastards. On turn 1 they single handedly obliterated my war level Mankhat in a single round of shooting! Sure the Mankhat is a frail war, but the fact that they hit it with a total of like 10 or more crits, combined effort of course, was enough to put any war out of commission!

As for the Mothership, well...I can't agree. It has a nasty beam, but it's extremely easy to kill. Just have a fighter shoot it after having a scout decrease stealth, then pummel it with any SP or Super AP weapon and it's toast! I played 2 games against Psi Corps last night and though the Motherships were impressive, they weren't deemed a major threat in my eyes; it's those frickin' Hunters that scare the crap out of me!

 

[Karhedron]

Better than average:

White Star I/II - Got a firepower upgrade but no compensation in reduction (e.g. boresight).

Actually I think the WS worked out more or less even compared to previous edition. It got an extra AD of neutron laser but it lost an AD of pulsars. It also got its dodge reduced from 3+ to 4+. Overall I think it is probably about right.