Solid archer build?

[slaughterj]

I'm thinking I might make this a house rule. Ranged weapons do less than melee (e.g., limited STR up to the bows' rating, no 1.5x for 2-handed, or power attack, or power attack x2 for 2-handed, etc.), and while they make up for that somewhat by being ranged, I doubt that enabling ranged finesse for everyone will amount to much - e.g., how likely is it that the focused archer will finesse the guy in DR 6 armor at 2 range increments (i.e., effective -10)? And given the reduced AP for finesse attacks, those missed shots due to armor will do next to nothing, so that's a big risk to take anyway. The only concern I would have it that people might try to argue "why not allow ranged sneak attack at any range as well, since it's a matter of hitting a vital point, similar to finesse."

Effective -10 what?

As noted above, -6 for the DR, -4 for the range (yes, I know the damage will still apply against the target for a finesse attack if the armor is struck, but my point is what you need to get an effective finesse attack).

Two handed & Power Attack don't do anything for bow use.

No shit. My comments about such are in a parenthetical after the term "melee". What's your point?

Range Sneak attacks already work at any range. No target can Parry a ranged attack, and if they can't Dodge (from surprise or doing something that prevents them from doing so) then Sneak Attack can be applied.

Nope, as noted above, only out to 30', per the text. As for your bit about Dodge, we had that lengthy discussion some time ago, and EVERYONE but you reads it differently, so that's probably not the best basis for discussion.

I think you are confused about how ranged AP works.

I think you are confused about my post and the rules of the game.

 

[Sutek]

Confused about your post, yes. The rules, no.

I have never seen the DR factored in as a negative modifier to the attack roll, only as a negative modifer to damage and as a DV increase for the purposes of Finesse. You're jsut thinking of the other way around, which is totally valid, but I jsut didn't see it.

 

[Foxworthy]

Confused about your post, yes. The rules, no.

I have never seen the DR factored in as a negative modifier to the attack roll, only as a negative modifer to damage and as a DV increase for the purposes of Finesse. You're jsut thinking of the other way around, which is totally valid, but I jsut didn't see it.

One mans DV Increase is another man's Attack Penalty. In the strictest terms it's neither an increase to DV nor an attack penalty as the success of the attack isn't affected. It's more of a degree of success mechanic.

Truthfully though Ranged Finesse needs to be fixed. The problem is a balance question though. Not having knowledge of the playtesters notes and the developers notes I don't know why Ranged Finesse is limited like it is.

If Ranged Finesse is treated like Normal Finesse does that imbalance things to make the archer build better than a standard melee build?

I'm going to be thinking while I type so this might end up a disjointed analsys of Standrag Melee vs ranged Combat.

Minimum feat required for Ranged Finesse is Simple Weapons, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Ranged Finesse minimum level for this is level one.

Minimum feat requirement for Melee Finesse Fighter is Simple Weapons. Mimimum Level is one.

For the first comparisions lets use simple weapons. BAB will be +1 and opponents defense will be a base of 10. We will compare Hunting Bow/War Spear. We will compare against Leather armor. The Bow will be at range of 30 feat as the feat requires. No Attribute bonuses will be used for this test.

The Hunting Bow will finesse past the opponents armor on a roll of 12 or higher. And will do 2-9 points of damage. On a roll of 8 - 11 the attack will hit but not bypass the armor completely. Over four rounds with one finesse and none finesse the Hunting bow will average seven points of damage. (Finesse can only be used every other round.) If all attacks bypass armor the damage goes up to 11. And if none bypass armor the damages goes to 3. Without using finesse the average output for the bow over four rounds would be 6 damage.

The War Spear will finesse past an opponents armor on a roll of 13 or higher. And will hit but not bypass armor on a roll of 9-12. Over four rounds assuming that one attack bypasses the armor and one hits but does not bypass and two attack miss, the war spear will average seven points of damage. Right now the Hunting Bow is on par with the war spear. Though if all attacks bypass armor the damage goes 22 on average. If all hit but none bypass the armor the average damage is 6. The same as the bow with out using finesse.

So the war spear equals the bow in none finessed combat. In Finessed Combat the spear is twice as effective. Changing to a mail shirt and a +6 BAB bonus this happens.

The Bow will average 6 Damage if one attack bypasses the armor and the other does not. 1 damage if neither attack bypasses. 11 if both bypass.

The Spear on the other hand will have eight attacks. Assuming that two of the main attacks bypass and 2 of the main attacks hit but fail to bypass. The spear will do 12 damage. This doesn't even include damage from iterative attacks, whic with the same split of hitting and bypassing would add another 12 points of damage. If all attacks hit but don't bypass the armor than the spearmen would still do 8 points of damage. If all hit and avoided armor than he would do 44 points of damage.

So does 30ft of distance equal the ability to do 2x to 4x the damage?

This is before you factor in ability scores to damage. The war spear at first level with a +2 bonus to str would be able to power attack for five additional points of damage with out much of a decrease in accuracy. That's at first level and only a 14 str and one feat. Weapon Focus helps offset that penalty and still leaves a feat for this build.

Obviously unbalanced towards the melee fighter.

If we made Ranged Finesse equal to Melee Finesse than damage output would be about equal at 30 feet and slightly less at 50 feet as the bonus point of damage from Point Blank Shot would be loss.

This seems fair in the comparison of Bow vs War Spear since the war spear can gain the benefits of power attack while the bowmen would be able to use range to his advantage.

Let's see how this holds up with better weapons.

First level builds again, Bossonian Longbow vs Two Handed use of the War Sword. Same armor and Defense values and same base attack. I will assume the user of the Bossonian Longbow is Bossonian so that we don't need an extra feat slot for the build. This does stack the to hit bonus one point more in favor of the archer but that would be counteracted by the swordsmen feat of Weapon focus. So the archer still is only one point better in the ability to attack than the swordsman just like the hunting bow vs war spear when the bow is at 30 feat. In four rounds of combat assuming all attacks hit but only half bypass armor.

Longbow will do 13 points of damage.
War Sword will do 18 points of damage

If no attack bypass armor

the longbow does 9 damage
the war sword does 10 damage.

So the war sword has a clear advantage here. Upping the armor to a mail shirt and the BAB to +6 yeilds

the longbow will the same amount of damage as above as the additional one point of DR has no effect against the bow when it fails to finesse.

The War Sword will do 32 points damage on a half bypass half don't spread.

If none bypass the war sword will only do 12 points of damage. Which is only slightly better than before. Moving the armor one DR up would reduce the none bypass damage down to 4. While the none bypass damage of the Longbow would be 3. Increase the DR to seven and the average output of the War Sword if non bypasses would be zero while the longbow would be at one. Now this is only because the AP value of the longbow is a 5. The Stygian Bow would be even worse off even with the same damage die.

But what would happen if the bow could finesse like melee weapons. Let's go back to the +1 BAB. For simplicty I'm going to seperate the results into this. This is within 30ft

Weapon Dmg when all bypass/ Dmg When non bypass/ Dmg when 1/2 bypass 1/2 don't

Longbow 30 / 22 / 26
War Sword 26 / 10 / 18

Now let's see it at +6 BAB and a Mail Shirt

Longbow 60 / 44 / 52
War Sword 42 / 12 / 36

Wow, the Bow just came off a lot better. So letting Bows finesse like melee attack can be over powered once iterative attacks start. Though that's with a Bossonian Bow and Point Blank Shot. Though again Power Attack could out do that quite easily.

Here's my fix for Ranged Finesse. Make it a combat option like feint using the feats description in the book minus the range part. Anyone can do it but they have to use a full round action to line the opponent up.

Then add a feat.

Requirements: Precise Shot Benefits: You can perform Ranged Finesse as a Move Equivalant Action.

And then add

Requirements: Precise Shot, Improved Ranged Finesse, BAB +6 Benefits: You can perfom Ranged Finesse as a free action.

I thinkt hat would help to make it balanced, yet not since you need to sink feats into for it to be really usefull.

Thoughts?

And I apologize for the long post.

 

[Sutek]

I see where you logic lies, but here's my take.

The ubiquitous sword versus the ubiquitous arrow: Problably ought to be the broad sword and Hyrkanian bow/arrow. Not being intimately in tune with the Hyborian world, Hyrkania is simply the largest area of the map and therfore should have the most bows in the world (lol. Loose assumption to be sure, but the broadsword is probably used by constabulary and low-ranked soldiers arround the globe far more than a war sword, which seems more for the big-bad-dude set of constabulary and soldiers to me. (hehe)

Anyway, Broad swords and Hyrkanian bows/arrows have the same d10 damage rating, so that makes things easier in dettermining whether one is better than the other.

For argument sake, without citing rules at all, I propose that both should be equally as deadly, but that I feel that arrow AP should be much higher at base, diminishing over range just as it is now. The rationalle being that arrows are intended to peirce armor more easily than swords hack through it. Crossbows, even moreso. Chain armor was invented to mitigate arrow penetration, but it works just like every other sort of armor.

I feel that the damage ratings aren't the problem with arrows, but that AP is. Further, I feel that different armors should have DR benefits against the different categories of damage (slashing, bludgeoning and pierceing).

Now, to the ranged finesse issue: It's bizzare, but it's a fantasy game, so it fits. Arrows, any projectile for that matter, should not be able to technically finesse a target by the deffinition of that combat type. It is explained as finding a gap or weak spot in armor, but at range, that's essentially impossible. What the Ap and Ranged Finesse rules are really trying to emulate is that arrows are narrow, pointy and fast and penetrate armor well as a result to a diminishing degree to to relative decreasse in velocity.

To that degree, I feel that the ranged Finesse rules work fine, but that AP values might be more accurate if they were actually higher, decreasing by more over range increments.

 

[slaughterj]

Confused about your post, yes. The rules, no.

Then apparently you missed your rule errors that were pointed out above.

 

[slaughterj]

Now, to the ranged finesse issue: It's bizzare, but it's a fantasy game, so it fits. Arrows, any projectile for that matter, should not be able to technically finesse a target by the deffinition of that combat type. It is explained as finding a gap or weak spot in armor, but at range, that's essentially impossible. What the Ap and Ranged Finesse rules are really trying to emulate is that arrows are narrow, pointy and fast and penetrate armor well as a result to a diminishing degree to to relative decreasse in velocity.

I agree with several points in your post, but not so much so with the quote above. How do you explain shooting at a bullseye target competitions? It seems the guy who consistently is hitting the center would have a decent ability to place an arrow at a weak spot on a target. Just like you see the skilled archer in the movie shoot an armored foe in the throat, taking out the target, it seems ranged finesse should be more functional in the game. I understand the concern that being able to make such a successful hit at 300' (2 range increments) may border on incredulity (as well as the reference to movies when tying in reality, but hey, we're talking about a game, not reality, to some extent as well), but people can hit bullseyes out pretty far as well. Besides the range penalties at a couple of increments make it such that someone probably would prefer to just go with a straight-up shot against a distant armored foe, if they have enough AP to be effective. (Which goes back to your point that perhaps bows should have better AP, and maybe your right on that.)

 

[bjorntfh]

One thing to note: Hyrkanians (and turanians) have one benefit for nomad/soldier: they treat both as favored classes if they have both. It's from either Finest or Fiercest under the class combos.

 

[Sutek]

I agree with several points in your post, but not so much so with the quote above. How do you explain shooting at a bullseye target competitions? It seems the guy who consistently is hitting the center would have a decent ability to place an arrow at a weak spot on a target. Just like you see the skilled archer in the movie shoot an armored foe in the throat, taking out the target, it seems ranged finesse should be more functional in the game. I understand the concern that being able to make such a successful hit at 300' (2 range increments) may border on incredulity (as well as the reference to movies when tying in reality, but hey, we're talking about a game, not reality, to some extent as well), but people can hit bullseyes out pretty far as well. Besides the range penalties at a couple of increments make it such that someone probably would prefer to just go with a straight-up shot against a distant armored foe, if they have enough AP to be effective. (Which goes back to your point that perhaps bows should have better AP, and maybe your right on that.)

How do I explain target shooting competitions? Well, you get to aim, and the targets are fairly close (definitely within a range increment for any Conan bow) and I'd probably suggest a couple of archery feats would be in play that dont' even exist in the Conan world. Plus, the very visual nature of the taget aids in hitting the center, unlike a moving target at 300' wearing armor and shield. In other words, in the case of the target, you're trying to hit a stationary target that has within it a tiny area that you're trying to hit. The DV is likey to be easy to pull that off. We're talking super-heroes in Conan, and target shooting is dont' as easily as breathing, unless the GM declares otherwise. You can feel free to add up the numbers yourself, but it's apples to oranges when discussing combat effectiveness of bow and arrows.

To your coment about "shooting an armored foe in the throat", D20 has a built in mechanic for that: The Threat/Critical. It's why arrows deal x3 and can therefore kill if damage rolled is high enough. However, higher AP would make this more realistic instead of it decreasing far too much to make ranged crits even puncture armor. It should reduce, don't get me wrong, but arrows should start off with higher AP so as to be more able to penetrate armor, at least within the first range increment.

A Finesse attack is a choice. You choose to shoot your arrow between armor plates at 300 feet. That's damned near impossible, and much more likely to happen on pure luck, regardless of archery skill (also something that can't be quantified in D20).

Making a successful hit at 300' is nothing - archers made sucvcessful hits regularly at a quarter mile with the English Longbow. That's what it's made for - hitting from far away (lol). Hitting with precision wasn't what it was about though. You simply launch enough arrows into the air and hope you get enough to hit. Most hunting and arrow-based combat would have actually occured within one range increment given that they were mainly utilized as counter-siege weapons, shot down on enemies storming fortifications and castles.

Basically, arguing the point using target shooting as an example is erroneous at best. Target shooting is a sport that doesn't Finesse anything and is not an attempt to deal damage, nor is it in the heat of combat. I'd say that Feats such as Target Master or Bullseye Shot (which I just totally made up jsut now) would add to an archer's ability to hit that little red dot with more accuracy. But in the game, or any fantasy game for that matter, target shooting would only come up in a tournament, and that's not where Finesse shooting would occur.

To Finesse is a specific act. Arrows shoudl have the capability to do it just like any other weapon, but arrows (and I'd suggest all puncture type weapons) should also be able to penetrate armor more easily than they do in a more static way reflecting the way that melee weapons get to have weilder Strength enhance AP.

 

[Krushnak]

you can increase the ap rating of a bow if you're using the complex crafting rules from Tito's trading post.

this is how im handling finesse: combat manoeuvre requires precise shot and you cant be suffering any ranged penalties(ie for range increments or adverse conditions such as a weather or on a running horse). you take a full round action and may make one attack with your highest attack. if you beat the opponents DV by how much dr he has then you ignore it completely.

new feat: Marksmanship: wpn focus in a range weapon. for every 4 ranks in spot you have you ignore a range increments penalties with the focused weapon. can be taken multiple times but must be taken for a different weapon you are focused in each time.

one thing you have to remember is a bow like the bossonian one(english warbow) you werent actually able to aim with it at all you just learned through practice where to point the arrow.

basically low lvl npc or pc archers wont be much better than they are now but a high lvl soldier/borderer pc who's sunk alot of feats into his archery and focused on a specific bow should be something to fear as much as the heavy armour, bardiche weilding soldier.

 

[Oly]

one thing you have to remember is a bow like the bossonian one(english warbow) you werent actually able to aim with it at all you just learned through practice where to point the arrow.

I'm guessing that you mean an English longbow but what do you mean about being unable to aim with it? Isn't knowing where to point the arrow aiming?

I've done a couple of archery classes so I'm only a real amateur but I know that there was a certain range when you could sight down the drawn arrow and be guaranteed to hit where you aimed (presuming you've drawn back to the correct position by the jaw bone, which even I could manage, and that's saying a lot). If you were aiming at a closer or further away target then you had to apply a little up or down shifting of the aiming point. Pretty much how you aim with a rifle IIRC.

I'm also sure that you can get little slip on sight thingys that you mark on the range adjustment and then use to aim with so you don't even have to do it mentally. I think when I was a kid my brother had one on his bow.

 

[Krushnak]

with the english longbow you drew the arrow back to your ear so you couldnt sight down the arrow.

 

[Oly]

with the english longbow you drew the arrow back to your ear so you couldnt sight down the arrow.

Hands up I've never fired a "regular" longbow but I've used both recurve and compound and they basically "worked" the same way when it came to aiming.

I can't see why a "longbow" would have been fired differently.

Can you explain a bit more about the differences? Is it something to do with the size compared to the other bows?

Edited to add:
I've just found this link on traditional archery, it's got quite a bit of interesting detail in it.
http://www.kevinboone.com/traditional_archery_faq.html

It does mention that the draw point might have been different but the only aiming problem he mentions is the draw weight.

 

[Krushnak]

because you draw the arrow back to the ear instead of the cheek or eye you cant sight down the length of the arrow properly and it also makes the arrow on an angle to your line of sight, which makes it off centre to the arm which holds the bow infront of you. in game terms means you should really be using wisdom for attack rolls instead of dexterity but then you should be using wisdom for alot of ranged weapons.

 

[Sutek]

Sighting the English longbow isn't what we're talking about though. It's armor penetration, whether through AP rating, or rolling high enough on the strike to ignore armor in a Finesse attack.

If you want to get particular, any "Finesse" attack with a large weapon should be disallowed. Just dont' even try it with me. (lol) Finesse attacking with a Bardiche jsut seems rediculous beyond rationality.

However, I do like some of what Krushnak said about those new feats, and that's kinda what I was trying to say about target shooting. In other words, there's the potential for feats to help hit smnal areas and basicaly amount to a "called shot", but those kind of things should be more specific to targeting and not range. I'd suggest that Marksmanship have the same pre-reqs but actuall yjust count any target as one size category larger than it is. I think that knocks off the same penalty to shooting, but then it can be conformed to "targets within one range increment" and emulate being a crack target shooter. Also, you could allow it to stack with the same bow or be taken as a separate feat for different bows.

Japanese hunting bows are and example of short ranged bows that weren't ever really aimed. They were snap fired. Even the enormous Japanese daikyu was an "en masse" fired weapon, like the English longbow. But it's penetration we're talking about, so increasing arrow AP at within a single range increment to double what it is now might work, but have it diminish more at subsequent range increments.

I'll look at the numbers this weekend to see if this pans out.

Keep in mind here that the way D20 works is that any given strike can be potentially critical, which is what we'd normally have "called shots" to utilize in different game systems. We dont' ahve called shots, but the system itself "fakes it". In creating rules for the system, one has to leave the physics problems out of it (in other words, don't change velocity, aka range increments) but alter the esoteric qualities of the weapon (like AP, because it's dependent on other factors) or the perceptive capabilities of the character (like augmenting target size categories, or granting straing bonuses To Hit).

 

[Oly]

Sighting the English longbow isn't what we're talking about though.

I hope people didn't mind the distraction, I found it interesting and thanks to Krushnak for the explanation.

 

[slaughterj]

A Finesse attack is a choice. You choose to shoot your arrow between armor plates at 300 feet. That's damned near impossible, and much more likely to happen on pure luck, regardless of archery skill (also something that can't be quantified in D20).

....

To Finesse is a specific act. Arrows shoudl have the capability to do it just like any other weapon, but arrows (and I'd suggest all puncture type weapons) should also be able to penetrate armor more easily than they do in a more static way reflecting the way that melee weapons get to have weilder Strength enhance AP.

You're coming across a bit contradictory here, can you clarify?

 

[slaughterj]

If you want to get particular, any "Finesse" attack with a large weapon should be disallowed. Just dont' even try it with me. (lol) Finesse attacking with a Bardiche jsut seems rediculous beyond rationality.

Well, you'll note that the list of finesse-able weapons in the book is fairly short and seems relatively thought-out.

 

[Sutek]

A Finesse attack is a choice. You choose to shoot your arrow between armor plates at 300 feet. That's damned near impossible, and much more likely to happen on pure luck, regardless of archery skill (also something that can't be quantified in D20).

....

To Finesse is a specific act. Arrows shoudl have the capability to do it just like any other weapon, but arrows (and I'd suggest all puncture type weapons) should also be able to penetrate armor more easily than they do in a more static way reflecting the way that melee weapons get to have weilder Strength enhance AP.

You're coming across a bit contradictory here, can you clarify?

To Finesse attack is a choice. It is a specific act. Arrows should have the ability to be used in such an attack just like any other weapon. However, arrows should be, in my opinion, better able to penetrate armor statically, meaning they should be able to do so at a higher initial set AP value. Melee weapons have more variable AP values due to varrying levels of STR and other factors.

Nothing really contradictory as far as I can tell, but maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Can you explain you issue with it a little more?

 

[Krushnak]

one thing ou have to remember is that when using the bows in conan strength is as much an important stat for the archer as it is for the vanilla melee soldier. historically archers werent the weedy little guys that are portrayed in alot movies and books but were actually some of the strongest warriors on the battlefield. take the english longbow again had a draw weight of anywhere between 200- 300 pounds. so it would be like lifting a grown man each time you pulled back that string, pretty impressive.

in d20 terms this means that the average strength of the bowman would be around 16-20 giving a bossonian bow an AP of around 8-9 which will punch through most armour.

 

[slaughterj]

A Finesse attack is a choice. You choose to shoot your arrow between armor plates at 300 feet. That's damned near impossible, and much more likely to happen on pure luck, regardless of archery skill (also something that can't be quantified in D20).

....

To Finesse is a specific act. Arrows shoudl have the capability to do it just like any other weapon, but arrows (and I'd suggest all puncture type weapons) should also be able to penetrate armor more easily than they do in a more static way reflecting the way that melee weapons get to have weilder Strength enhance AP.

You're coming across a bit contradictory here, can you clarify?

To Finesse attack is a choice. It is a specific act. Arrows should have the ability to be used in such an attack just like any other weapon. However, arrows should be, in my opinion, better able to penetrate armor statically, meaning they should be able to do so at a higher initial set AP value. Melee weapons have more variable AP values due to varrying levels of STR and other factors.

Nothing really contradictory as far as I can tell, but maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Can you explain you issue with it a little more?

At first you are saying it is basically impossible to finesse at some distance with an arrow, but then you say arrows should be able to finesse - so either this is being contradictory, or how do you propose to draw the line? The text enables ranged finesse with the feat out to 30 feet, thoughts? I see no problem with enabling finesse at any distance, because the range penalties will accumulate and make it damned near impossible, as you put it. But you seemed to not like that idea when I posted it earlier. So I'm trying to figure out, which way do you want it, arrows to be able to finesse or not, and if able to, any limits on it?