Solid archer build?

[rgrove0172]

Im new to the system and followed this thread pretty closely. I was concerned in particularly about the accusations that the "ranged finesse" skill was not effective and that archery in general was underpowered.

It would seem that the archery system is straight out of D&D isnt it, damage factors and all, and thats been around quite long enough to have been play-tested to efficiency? Is there a problem with it in general or is it that the vision of ranged combat in Conan is out of sinc with the rules?

As to Ranged Finesse, why is it not effective as written? Is it the turn of aiming required? Does this become problematic when the target has to be at such close range?

Sorry, our campaign starts in a month or so and Id like to have some of this cleared up. If theres a problem here, Ill look to your suggestions to fix it.

 

[Foxworthy]

Conan's ranged combat differs from D&D's because of the use of DR. Most bows can't penatrate good armor. Ranged Finesse is basicaly useless as not only does it take a feat but you must be within 30 feet and take one round to aim. Also the target couldn't have moved more than 30 feet since that time. In most cases the archer may get one shot off before the guy comes and starts melee attack with him. Since ranged combatants have an exteremly difficult time in melee combat.

 

[rgrove0172]

So whats the best solution?

Modify the DR of armor types against ranged weapons (.5 or something)?
Allow Ranged Finesse as is without a Feat and perhaps remove the aiming requirement if it is a Feat?
Increase the range at which it can be used?

 

[slaughterj]

So whats the best solution?

Modify the DR of armor types against ranged weapons (.5 or something)?
Allow Ranged Finesse as is without a Feat and perhaps remove the aiming requirement if it is a Feat?
Increase the range at which it can be used?

I'm thinking of skipping the feat, aiming, range limit, etc. and just allow it to be done the same as melee combat. Range increments will give penalties to hit and AP that should keep down long range finesse sniping. DR will still apply the same, so melee weapons will penetrate more easily. That seems to be a simple solution, compared to others - just make it the same as melee. Still thinking on it though.

The other option I see is even easier - don't change the rules at all, but increase the availability of STR-added bows. They are cheap, even a +5 hunting bow is cheaper than broadsword. You can add your STR to the damage and AP of the bow, up to its "plus", which gives the arrows more damage and better armor penetration, and just skip the whole notion of ranged finesse. That will work for most PCs, though I could see the occasional thief type who would like to throw a dagger into the throat of the armored guy 10-20' away, which may still need to be addressed, and I still think that should be allowed without a feat.

 

[Kemper Boyd]

In most cases the archer may get one shot off before the guy comes and starts melee attack with him. Since ranged combatants have an exteremly difficult time in melee combat.

That's the reason an archer should think tactically. Don't get into a fight where the enemy can get up close and personal.

In the Conan games I've played, archers are often the most dangerous members of the group. Granted, the characters in those campaigns aren't really minmaxed combat monsters.

Never underestimate the power to hurt the enemy in situations where he cannot hurt you back.

 

[Sutek]

The other option I see is even easier - don't change the rules at all, but increase the availability of STR-added bows. They are cheap, even a +5 hunting bow is cheaper than broadsword. You can add your STR to the damage and AP of the bow, up to its "plus", which gives the arrows more damage and better armor penetration, and just skip the whole notion of ranged finesse. That will work for most PCs, though I could see the occasional thief type who would like to throw a dagger into the throat of the armored guy 10-20' away, which may still need to be addressed, and I still think that should be allowed without a feat.

I suppose so, but I still think simply increasing the AP of arrows is what's needed. I haven't had a chance to look into it, but I'll poke around and see if some numbers work better than others and post my findings in the next day or so.

Adding STR bows world wide is adding technology that ought not be there, but it does put more AP into the mix without changing any rules. Recurved bows (and thus STR bows) are a technological advancement that took a while to catch on in Earth history. Not even coing to mention pulleys and the like.

 

[argo]

It would seem that the archery system is straight out of D&D isnt it, damage factors and all, and thats been around quite long enough to have been play-tested to efficiency? Is there a problem with it in general or is it that the vision of ranged combat in Conan is out of sinc with the rules?

Ranged combat is designed such that archers tend to make more attacks over the course of a combat but with lower average damage per hit. In dnd this balances fairly well with melee which tends to make fewer attacks per combat but with a greater damage per hit.

Conan throws a monkey wrench into things by having armor provide DR. Archery in Conan is devestating against unarmored oppenents and reasonably effective against light armor but against opponents in heavy armor you frequently have hits that are totally ineffective. So the problem with ranged combat in Conan is really a matter of archers being incapable of dealing with high DR.

As to Ranged Finesse, why is it not effective as written? Is it the turn of aiming required? Does this become problematic when the target has to be at such close range?

The reason the Ranged Finesse feat sucks is the turn of aiming. The problem with archery is one of low average damage over time so making archers give up their attacks every other round in order to make a single finesse shot is not really a viable solutioun to that problem.

As I've mentioned elsewhere. My answer is to change Ranged Finess so the benefit of the feat is to make all ranged attacks agaisnt targets within 30 feet count as finesse attacks. Melee will still be stronger against high DR than archery but I am ok with that (this is Conan after all) so long as archers are not made totally useless.

And remember! Even without ranged finesse archery is deadly to the unarmored crowd (ie: the savage hordes).

Later.

 

[Sutek]

Yeah, I have no idea why you have to aim a bow and arrow, but you don't have to aim a rapier.

:?

 

[slaughterj]

Adding STR bows world wide is adding technology that ought not be there, but it does put more AP into the mix without changing any rules. Recurved bows (and thus STR bows) are a technological advancement that took a while to catch on in Earth history. Not even coing to mention pulleys and the like.

Regardless of what may or may not be present in the world technologically (which I don't think can be said one way or the other definitively), the rulebook enables all bows to be STR bows, at a low cost (20sp per +1), with every +1 on the bow enabling +1 to damage and AP.

Therefore, you might give your level 1 NPCs a regular bow, you certainly can give higher level ones a bow with a +1 or +2 readily enough, especially as those NPCs have swords, etc. that cost much more. The typical advanced scout or mercenary type NPC likely would have a STR 14, thus even with a Hunting Bow +2, they can deal some damage on average to a light armored foe. Moreso, the typical experienced nomad NPC (e.g., Level 2-3) would have a Hyrkanian or Shemite bow +2, doing 1d10+2 with a AP5/6, thus doing 1d10 to the DR4/5 foes, which is pretty decent at range.

 

[Foxworthy]

So whats the best solution?

Modify the DR of armor types against ranged weapons (.5 or something)?
Allow Ranged Finesse as is without a Feat and perhaps remove the aiming requirement if it is a Feat?
Increase the range at which it can be used?

Well an earlier post I had was long and drawn out on a few diffrent options and how they compared. Personally I just don't use bows when I'm that close long live the war sword.

Never underestimate the power to hurt the enemy in situations where he cannot hurt you back.

Well when you're only thirty feet away ranged combat and ranged finesse is horrible. At a distance yeah ranged combat is nice but unless you have a bossonian long bow you're not going to be reliably taking out armored opponent of course the fact that they aren't reliably taking you out helps.

In all my campaigns I've never seen the archers do that well. That even includes aome archer based prestige classes from a Misfits Studios expansion. The Bardiche weilding Barbarian and Arming Sword Weilding Thief are always the combat beast.

 

[Krushnak]

well this is entirely the reason missile warfare didnt become truly popular until the advent of hand-held blackpowder weapons. it simply takes too long to train effective long bow users and even then they need to have the battlefield shaped entirely to their advantage to use them to their full potential. by the time the longbow had been realised for it's full potential they had to go up against plate armour which it struggled to do. Melee will always be favoured until they start to bring in high velocity missile weapons just deal with it. archery in conan can be deadly but it shouldnt replace or even be considered an easy alternative to melee.

 

[Conan-the-Librarian]

One idea to enhance Ranged Finesse so that it is more practical (whether or not you modify it to eliminate the turn spent aiming)... what if, instead of 30 ft, the Ranged Finesse was good out to 1 Range Increment? This means that certain specialty bows (usually wielded by races that specialize in archery) would have a slight advantage. Also it would benefit those who pick up the Far Shot feat since their Range Increment is extended.

The reason for this is that 30 ft is not very far away, basically one's foes need only charge at you to get within melee range in 1 turn or perhaps 2 turns at the most. Considering that according to the Ranged Finesse feat, you're already wasting 1 of those turns in aiming... that's a feat that won't see much action.

But if Ranged Finesse worked out to 1 Range Increment, then an archer could get some use out of it (even if 1/2 the time the archer had to aim).

 

[Sutek]

Nope, I don't think so. Within 30ft is fine, because you're trying to hit within point black range and could theorhetically "aim" for that gap in armor or whatever that Finesse attacks are supposed to emulate.

What if it was like this (and bear with me here):

Finesse attacks normally allow an attacker to use his DEX mod instead to essentially need a higher defense DC to rollagainst to hit a foe and bypass that foe's armor, thereby hurting him more.

Since bows already use DEX mod to attack with, what if you just decided to "Shoot For Impact" instead of shoot for accuracy. In this case, the shooter opts to use his STR stat within 30ft to draw way back and just try to pound through opponent armor, thus adding his strength to Damage and AP, but taking the same amount off the roll to hit (or adding it to the opponent's DV; whatever makes the most sense to you).

You wouldn't have to have a Strength Bow to do it, but if you did, you could add double your STR mod, taking the same amount off to hit (!). That coul dbe a lot, but hey, if you dould gain +6AP and Damage, would you?

 

[slaughterj]

One idea to enhance Ranged Finesse so that it is more practical (whether or not you modify it to eliminate the turn spent aiming)... what if, instead of 30 ft, the Ranged Finesse was good out to 1 Range Increment? This means that certain specialty bows (usually wielded by races that specialize in archery) would have a slight advantage. Also it would benefit those who pick up the Far Shot feat since their Range Increment is extended.

The reason for this is that 30 ft is not very far away, basically one's foes need only charge at you to get within melee range in 1 turn or perhaps 2 turns at the most. Considering that according to the Ranged Finesse feat, you're already wasting 1 of those turns in aiming... that's a feat that won't see much action.

But if Ranged Finesse worked out to 1 Range Increment, then an archer could get some use out of it (even if 1/2 the time the archer had to aim).

Sounds like a good option, for the reasons you stated. Wasting all that time to aim, hoping your target doesn't move or get killed by your friends, and being so close to the combat that in the interim you are likely to be attacked by your target or others and therefore be unable to do the ranged attack without being subjected to AOOs, all of that makes the feat worthless. If you want to keep it a feat, this would be good, or you could just say everyone can ranged finesse (maybe just with bows they are proficient with) just like everyone can melee finesse.

 

[Netherek]

I'd be inclined to alter ranged finesse to a move action. I'd leave the rest of the feat as is, don't forget that Eagle Eye feat increases point blank range to 60ft. allowing ranged finesse and sneak attacks at that range.

 

[Daz]

I'd be inclined to alter ranged finesse to a move action. I'd leave the rest of the feat as is, don't forget that Eagle Eye feat increases point blank range to 60ft. allowing ranged finesse and sneak attacks at that range.

What book that in?

 

[Netherek]

It's in Hyborias Fiercest and in Finest.