So what's going on with the third edition of A Call to Arms?

locarno24 said:
Tweaking the grossly unbalanced ships is important but it's done via statline rather than points cost.

I was with you up to this point, but as someone who was a SFB player from the first A5 rulebook through to Doomsday rules I can't help but remember the constant stream of ship stat alterations via Captains Log/Nexus (Mostly as a result of competition player whingeing, as I found out from those I knew who were 'rated players' at the time).

If statline tweaks were necessary I'd hope they were rare, also not competition player driven.
 
Burger said:
I think if you published a fan-made "3rd edition" that was a complete ruleset, based on or modified from 2nd ed, Mongoose would jump on you harder than a hippo on amphetamines. Whether you did it for profit or charge to cover costs or give it away for free is irrelevant; you would be infringing Mongoose's copyright and they would put a stop to it immediately.

Fan-made supplements such as Da Boss's are not complete rule sets, they are additional house rules and stats for new ships. To use it you would still need to purchase the 2nd ed rules.

If I were to do it, it would be a modified... or better yet, augmented 2nd edition. Purchasing the 2nd ed. rules set would required in order to play. I'd mostly look at house rules that either supplement what is already there or redo some of it. As well as redone fleet lists to account for new rules, such as redundancy. I may just end up waiting for 3rd edition to come out, then work from there.
 
hiffano said:
but I think charles is doing the same subject soon... i could be wrong lol

yep - its about 155 pages at present :)

Matt was previously very generous allowing me to use and abuse the fleet lists :)
 
Stonehorse said:
Am I right in thinking that Mongoose plan to base the 3rd edition on a pre-existing Sci-Fi franchise?

What I would like to see is a point system, the Priority system currently used is too erratic I find. I'd also like to see a more refined critical system, as it is now it is a lot of book keeping. One critical chart would surface.
Crits are quite easy to keep track of if you make chits that have the effects on them. The way we did is have 1 coloured carboard for SA, we have green, Red for crits & just move them with the ships. Instead of doing them all up, we just wrote them up as we got them. Next thing we knew we had them all. The hardest part is moving them with the ships.
 
Target said:
Stonehorse said:
Am I right in thinking that Mongoose plan to base the 3rd edition on a pre-existing Sci-Fi franchise?

What I would like to see is a point system, the Priority system currently used is too erratic I find. I'd also like to see a more refined critical system, as it is now it is a lot of book keeping. One critical chart would surface.
Crits are quite easy to keep track of if you make chits that have the effects on them. The way we did is have 1 coloured carboard for SA, we have green, Red for crits & just move them with the ships. Instead of doing them all up, we just wrote them up as we got them. Next thing we knew we had them all. The hardest part is moving them with the ships.

I'm working on something similar. I'm looking at drilling small peg holes in my bases, and having a set of colored pegs, each representing a type of crit. I was looking at tokens as well, but didn't want to deal with moving them or them getting in the way. This way, the crits will be on the base already, and its not hard to tell the colors apart.

Edit - I may also do a single stem that sticks out of the base, then colored rings or disks that slide onto it....
 
I was with you up to this point, but as someone who was a SFB player from the first A5 rulebook through to Doomsday rules I can't help but remember the constant stream of ship stat alterations via Captains Log/Nexus (Mostly as a result of competition player whingeing, as I found out from those I knew who were 'rated players' at the time).

If statline tweaks were necessary I'd hope they were rare, also not competition player driven.

So would I. But I was simply making the observation that I don't see why, regardless of how often they come (and yes, they should be rare if the initial job is done well), a balancing act which says:

"ship X now costs 105 points instead of 100"

is any less frustrating for the player than:

"ship X now has 65 hit points rather than 55"

Which seems to be something people argue, and which (at least to me) doesn't really make sense.

The latter has the advantage that it doesn't mess around with the priority levels.

Updates are kind of a fact of life. If the job is done well they will be rarer because there won't be out-and-out broken units (saggitarius, troglian, hunter, white star, and nova spring to mind from various points in the game's history), but as said, you can have every fleet identical (chess), or you can balance two fleets against each other (ever play space hulk?), but you can't simultaneously balance nearly 20 fleets against each other when they are matched together in random combinations.

Even if in some 'global results recorder' a fleet has a 50% win ratio, you personally as a player probably won't get that as you won't play all other fleets in equal proportions unless you have a really, really large gaming group...
 
Target said:
Stonehorse said:
Am I right in thinking that Mongoose plan to base the 3rd edition on a pre-existing Sci-Fi franchise?

What I would like to see is a point system, the Priority system currently used is too erratic I find. I'd also like to see a more refined critical system, as it is now it is a lot of book keeping. One critical chart would surface.
Crits are quite easy to keep track of if you make chits that have the effects on them. The way we did is have 1 coloured carboard for SA, we have green, Red for crits & just move them with the ships. Instead of doing them all up, we just wrote them up as we got them. Next thing we knew we had them all. The hardest part is moving them with the ships.

Sounds like an elegant way around the issue, but I'm colour-blind, so it may get a bit 'mixed' up for me. However I still find that the number of charts to be excessive, and clunky.

Many other Naval/Sci-Fi games use just one critical chart, and I find them to be more about action and less about having to remember what figures to deduct from the vessels stats.

Either way it'd be nice if Mongoose did give some form of update on what they are doing with the ACTA system.
 
Stonehorse said:
Am I right in thinking that Mongoose plan to base the 3rd edition on a pre-existing Sci-Fi franchise?

What I would like to see is a point system, the Priority system currently used is too erratic I find. I'd also like to see a more refined critical system, as it is now it is a lot of book keeping. One critical chart would surface.

If you can come up with a good, workable points system I would be very intrested - trying to cover all the possibilites/weapons and ship traits that would be a challenge.

I would however love to see it as a alternative - a couple of guys on the other B5 forum did some good wok - but the points system was based on their own House rules format.
 
In fairness, a lot of the other games use a 2D6 critical chart - you're rolling the exact same number of dice.... if you have differentiate-able dice, you can just treat it as a D66 roll.

There might be something to be said for simplicity, but the problem (or rather a resulting problem) in simplifying is the increase in 'big bad' criticals;

Taking Battlefleet gothic as an example, there are no '4+ to fire' or '-1 dice' penalties - you just have that arc's weapons blown away.

The problem is that - because of the way the rules mechanics are structured - criticals are a lot, lot rarer in Gothic, and generally a lot easier to repair. Loosing one arc's weapons is annoying but tolerable when it's usually only for a turn or two.

Whilst the roll is the same - 1/6th chance each time you suffer damage - a cruiser in gothic has 8 hit points, meaning on average it will suffer only 1 critical in the process of being battered to death. Equally, whilst it needs 6's to repair, it rolls multiple dice (potentially 7 if it's only taken one hit) and makes the attempt in each player turn - twice per game turn.

In A Call To Arms, a G'Quan cruiser with its sixty-plus damage capacity can be expected to suffer about ten critical hits over the course of enough hits to kill it - twice that if under fire from precise weapons - and it can only repair a single critical, on average, every three game turns. Yes, it has access to All hands on deck! but then a depressing proportion of criticals prevent you from using it.

Unless you're going to fundamentally revamp the whole damage model, you need most of the critical hits to be 'mild' ones or else your ship is a floating wreck regardless of its thirty or forty remaining damage - this is the common complaint about big ships in general and narns in particular; critical hits define the game too much, especially since the current ones scale with the ship. A '4+ to fire' on a sunhawk is annoying - a '4+ to fire' on a nemesis destroyer is game-winning.

I'm very much a fan of the redundancy optional rule from powers and principalities for this reason - whilst I lost my last narn-centauri game it more than once kept a G'Quan's weapons operating, which meant that a G'Quan squadron remarkably managed to dismember a big vorchan pack during a single strafing run. Admittedly, they were much too battered afterwards to take on the battlecruiser line and live, but I don't mind that.

Having my units reduced in fighting ability as a game goes on is fine. (I always thought that Gothic's 'crippled' mechanic was simple and elegant)

Losing the ability to control my units movement or attacks is annoying and upsetting because it makes me feel irrelevant to a game's rules mechanics

This is why I suggested greater granularity of weapons in the ship stats - it's easy enough on a ship sheet to note down weapons being blown off as they're hit (like B5 wars, but I'm not suggesting anything as detailed as giving a weapon a damage capacity or armour; just criticals that say lose one, or D3, or D6 weapons from the closest facing). Victory at Sea does this quite nicely with having capital ships having their fore or aft turrets taken out one at a time.
 
Locarno,

Yes I see what you mean, from that point of view you're right, it should be better.

I just saw in my mind an edition of S&P with a 10 page ship errata list and had a bit of a flashback!
 
Like the Fleet Command section of Powers and Principalities?

Mind you, that's covering every fleet in the game in about half that.




Oh - one other thought - crew.
Don't get me wrong; I like the crew stat. The idea that a ship's crew can be slaughtered to the point of skeleton crew due to reactor leaks or suchlike whilst the ship itself is still just about able to fight is interesting.

My complaint is that - as is - you have two damage tracks which are run simultaneously, and the difference between the two is often minor.

If it was me, I'd make the following suggestion: Damage is damage - that is, a battle-priority ship has forty-plus damage and this is it's main 'hit point track'.

The crew score is much lower, but a solid hit does not kill a point of crew. Critical hits (most notably, obviously, a 5-whatever) will kill crew as well as inflicting damage and causing other effects.

As a result, you can still depopulate a ship with criticals (since it will have 40/9 damage and - say - 10/3 crew) but if you don't hit important bits of the ship, crew score doesn't matter.

This seems sensible to me in that you'll only significantly hurt a ship's crew complement by hitting the engineering, flight or command decks - otherwise you may kill a gunner but since you've slagged the weapon he was controlling in the process, who (other than him) cares? The crew is not distributed evenly throughout the hull and, when at general quarters, quite a few areas are going to be empty and locked down.

It just means that, unless you're getting crew-killing criticals (which in the current rules you need to drag the crew score below the damage score or else it just dies from being at zero damage anyway - crew is generally significantly higher than damage) you don't have to keep track of crew at all. It's one less bit of continuos book-keeping to do without loosing the flavour.

By comparison, I liked the optional fire rules - I'd love to see fires be a standard element of the rules; we regularly see ships visibly burning and a 'persistant damage' mechanic helps cover this off.
 
Stonehorse said:
Sounds like an elegant way around the issue, but I'm colour-blind, so it may get a bit 'mixed' up for me. However I still find that the number of charts to be excessive, and clunky.

Many other Naval/Sci-Fi games use just one critical chart, and I find them to be more about action and less about having to remember what figures to deduct from the vessels stats.

Either way it'd be nice if Mongoose did give some form of update on what they are doing with the ACTA system.

Maybe these would help you?
http://www.topshelfgames.com/Babylon-5-Official-Targeting-and-Status-Tokens-p/tsg53202.htm
 
the "self made" points system can be found here:

http://babylon-5-acta.forumotion.net/player-made-resources-f2/selfmade-points-system-and-rules-t41.htm?sid=be9c7363a590547448038dec48bb6688

created by Markus and Link-Hero-1

well worth checking out :)
 
This game is intended for an April-May-June release (at the very latest, as we hope to have the first new A Call to Arms variation out towards the middle of 2010 as well), so we need to get out skates on. Fortunately, the sculpting has already started, and our NDA'd-up-to-the-eyeballs sculptors have been producing some great looking miniatures already - I hope to have some in my hands within the next couple of weeks.

We'll be revealing this one as soon as we have some prettily painted miniatures to show you, probably in S&P, so keep your eyes open. Meanwhile, I am going to be spending the rest of the afternoon trying out some new rules for the cannon fodder of the game. . .

Don't know if both paragraphs apply to ACTA or to the BF-EVO variation mentioned in the rest of the post.
 
"our NDA'd-up-to-the-eyeballs sculptors have been producing some great looking miniatures already"

....Interesting. I shall dispatch the ninja infiltration teams to Swindon forthwith.

The comment on the Evo variation is interesting, too.

"The second are the movement rules for one side in the game. Can't say much about that, as it would give the game away, but when you try it out, I would hope you think 'yes, they have caught that aspect utterly - and so simple too!'

Ah, the dreams of a games designer. . .

The two action/reaction system is still in there, though it has not survived completely unscathed. We did try one action per model per turn, but that did not really work. It added a certain layer of tactics, but was not very exciting - 'I run round the corner, brandishing my gun and. . . get my face ripped off as I have run out of actions.'"

'Face ripped off' on one side and 'all guns blazing' on the other sounds interesting. For some reason I can't help thinking of Aliens.
 
Aliens would be great licence - although the new models would have to be extremely impressive to even match the prepainted ones created for Horrorclix.

I have several sets of the Aliens and Preds and they are simply lovely.

re game mechinics - one of the reasons I disliked the actual heroclix system was the I move upto enemy and stop - he hits me (unless i want to damage myself :roll: ) it was too much in favour of the "sit back defensive" player - the oppposite of the superb Heroscape system.
 
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