Small one man space fighters

[BP]

...Or 2,400 smart missiles for the price of the 4 fighters - in my view a much better investment for a pirate ... :wink:

For pirates whose aim is to kidnap or steal ships (and people for that matter), fighters might be a better option for maintaining 'resale value'

Also, would allow a little more refined 'herding' options...

(Though, firing 2,400 smart missiles could be fun!)

 

[rust]

For pirates whose aim is to kidnap or steal ships (and people for that matter), fighters might be a better option for maintaining 'resale value'

Also, would allow a little more refined 'herding' options...

Well, talk to the free trader captain while standing in front of a cargo bay
with 2,400 smart missiles in it, and ask him politely to obey your orders,
because otherwise you would unfortunately have to send a few hundred
of those missiles over to him to express your disappointment with his un-
wise lack of cooperation - seems refined enough for me ... 8)

 

[BP]

Good point(s) :lol:

(Of course, one wouldn't want to mess-up that landing roll with 2,400 missiles in the hold... :shock

 

[rust]

(Of course, one wouldn't want to mess-up that landing roll with 2,400 missiles in the hold... :shock

Ah, those missiles are smart, they will take the escape pods.

 

[BP]

Ah - but, it will only take one of them rolling a 2 to blow the whole thing!

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I think the fighters in the corebook are stupidly expensive anyway 18 MCr for a light 10 ton fighter? Why bother when you can have a fully kitted out scout for less than 28 MCr.

I say, if they really want to have fighters, bump the cost down to a couple MCr. If only for the sake of fun.

The small craft design rules in HG create a light fighter for 10MCR, functionally the same, cheap enough for you?

The rules are pretty good in reducing the cost of other small craft as well, the version of the lauch offered on page 87 requires every expensive gizmo going to make 14MCr, a stripped down basic version can be designed for 5.265MCr (by just leaving out the extras)

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I recently did a 10 ton fighter that's immune to any turret weapon including particle beam.

Yep, easy to do with a high tech fighter.

Agreed, a TL15 with 15pts of super dense and 3 pts of radiation shielding. would be completely immune, even 12 or 13 points plus the rad shielding is virtually immune.

The question is, is this likely to be realistic?

Egil

 

[DFW]

Agreed, a TL15 with 15pts of super dense and 3 pts of radiation shielding. would be completely immune, even 12 or 13 points plus the rad shielding is virtually immune.

The question is, is this likely to be realistic?

Egil

Of course it is. Governments build warships to destroy enemies, not to be destroyed. Why build a fighter for millions of credits that will be blown away in a few minutes? That would be insanely wasteful of money. Would you build a freighter that couldn't deliver cargo, or deliver it only once?

Would YOU pilot one of those paper mache fighters?

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Agreed, a TL15 with 15pts of super dense and 3 pts of radiation shielding. would be completely immune, even 12 or 13 points plus the rad shielding is virtually immune.

The question is, is this likely to be realistic?

Egil

Of course it is. Governments build warships to destroy enemies, not to be destroyed. Why build a fighter for millions of credits that will be blown away in a few minutes? That would be insanely wasteful of money. Would you build a freighter that couldn't deliver cargo, or deliver it only once?

You have a very positive view of governments, especially in peace time there is a long record of governments (in a number of countries!)spending a fortune on useless turkeys.

However, that wasn't really my point, is the concept of a 10 ton small craft so well armoured that it is practically immune to missiles, lasers and turret mounted particle beams realistic?

Or, for a different question, would it upset the play balance?

Egil

 

[rust]

The question is, is this likely to be realistic?

Yes.

Even if a navy would have the industrial resources to replace destroyed
fighters quickly, this would be a rather expensive way to use these re-
sources.

More importantly, I cannot imagine any navy that could replace pilots as
easily as fighters. Pilots need uncommon talents, their training takes a ve-
ry long time, and this training is quite expensive.

So, as long as we are discussing manned fighters instead of drones, a na-
vy would have to be more than slightly dumb if it would not use the best
technology it can afford to protect the pilots.

 

[DFW]

You have a very positive view of governments, especially in peace time there is a long record of governments (in a number of countries!)spending a fortune on useless turkeys.

F-15 = 26-0 kill ratio. F-22 war games vs. F15's. [ 5 F15's vs. 1 F-22, all F-15's destroyed.] I just have more knowledge is all.

However, that wasn't really my point, is the concept of a 10 ton small craft so well armoured that it is practically immune to missiles, lasers and turret mounted particle beams realistic?

Yes, the weapons you cited are weak systems deployed on small civilian ships, they are NOT robust military offensive weapons. So, a VERY expensive military craft being able to defeat said systems is extremely realistic.

If you tried taking out an F-22 with an MIM-72 Chaparral system, what do you think would happen to that vehicle?

Or, for a different question, would it upset the play balance?
Egil

Play balance? A merchant being taken out by a TL 15 military ship doesn't hurt play balance in the least.

Also, please answer the question, would you personally fight in one of your proposed paper mache fighters?

 

[rust]

Besides, take a look at the technology levels. A TL 15 fighter should be
no more vulnerable to TL 10 weapons than an A-10 Thunderbolt ground
attack aircraft would be to the weaponry of a Napoleonic army.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

The question is, is this likely to be realistic?

Yes.

Even if a navy would have the industrial resources to replace destroyed
fighters quickly, this would be a rather expensive way to use these re-
sources.

More importantly, I cannot imagine any navy that could replace pilots as
easily as fighters. Pilots need uncommon talents, their training takes a ve-
ry long time, and this training is quite expensive.

So, as long as we are discussing manned fighters instead of drones, a na-
vy would have to be more than slightly dumb if it would not use the best
technology it can afford to protect the pilots.

Today's fast jet pilots are, indeed, very talented and well trained.
But the traveller fighter pilot can manage with pilot 1 and a bit of gunnery.
Which might well be a more realist comparison, flying a 10t trav fighter may well more resemble driving a speed boat with lots of computer support, very long enagagement ranges, and anti grav counteracting the g forces. Much less demanding than flying a Tornado.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Besides, take a look at the technology levels. A TL 15 fighter should be
no more vulnerable to TL 10 weapons than an A-10 Thunderbolt ground
attack aircraft would be to the weaponry of a Napoleonic army.

Fair point

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Besides, take a look at the technology levels. A TL 15 fighter should be
no more vulnerable to TL 10 weapons than an A-10 Thunderbolt ground
attack aircraft would be to the weaponry of a Napoleonic army.

Fair point

So where are the better point defences to take down TL14 fighters?

Where is the Zhodani's ZSU 23 4?

Egil

 

[DFW]

Where is the Zhodani's ZSU 23 4?

Egil

Why would the Zho's want to build death traps for their troops?

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

You have a very positive view of governments, especially in peace time there is a long record of governments (in a number of countries!)spending a fortune on useless turkeys.

F-15 = 26-0 kill ratio. F-22 war games vs. F15's. [ 5 F15's vs. 1 F-22, all F-15's destroyed.] I just have more knowledge is all.

However, that wasn't really my point, is the concept of a 10 ton small craft so well armoured that it is practically immune to missiles, lasers and turret mounted particle beams realistic?

Yes, the weapons you cited are weak systems deployed on small civilian ships, they are NOT robust military offensive weapons. So, a VERY expensive military craft being able to defeat said systems is extremely realistic.

If you tried taking out an F-22 with an MIM-72 Chaparral system, what do you think would happen to that vehicle?

Or, for a different question, would it upset the play balance?
Egil

Play balance? A merchant being taken out by a TL 15 military ship doesn't hurt play balance in the least.

Also, please answer the question, would you personally fight in one of your proposed paper mache fighters?

1. Glad that after 30 years and $billions the Airforce can finally shoot down a 1960s design with 1980s upgrades. Well done, but can it deal with equivelent aircraft?
2. fair enough, does seem odd that no-one has developed a better turret weapon than a TL8 partical beam.
3. All in favour of merchants being destroyed by warships, what is your point.
4. I am not proposing useless fighters, just thinking aloud about how likely heavily armoured fighters are, if they are not, then no fighters, for the reasons we agree on. Would I fly one? Sadly, the guy doing the fighting often has to make do with inadequate kit, partly because the government/military have spent it on fantastically expensive reinventions of the wheel (did someone say F22?) to keep arms firms in profits and voters in states with large arms factories voting the right way.


Egil

 

[rust]

So where are the better point defences to take down TL14 fighters?

A good question. While Traveller introduced a wide spread of technology
levels from TL 9 to TL 15, it failed to provide a technology development
that mirrors the differences over 6 technology levels - things only really
begin to change from TL 15 to TL 16, and then in an implausible jump of
capabilities.

I have no answer, which is one of the reasons why I do not use the stan-
dard Traveller technology levels and usually keep my settings' technolo-
gies on one single level that includes technology from Traveller's TLs be-
tween 9 and 15 (and more).

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Where is the Zhodani's ZSU 23 4?

Egil

Why would the Zho's want to build death traps for their troops?

I know you are kidding, but just to be quite clear, I am not advocating that the Zhodani build TL5/6 air defence to deal with TL14 fighters, merely pointing out that the Soviets designed air defences to deal with likely theats, such as the A10.

Egil

 

[DFW]

Would I fly one? Sadly, the guy doing the fighting often has to make do with inadequate kit, partly because the government/military have spent it on fantastically expensive reinventions of the wheel (did someone say F22?) to keep arms firms in profits and voters in states with large arms factories voting the right way.


Egil

When you decide to answer my question rather than ramble about OT stuff, let me know...