Small Craft design issues

[wbnc]

I have been reading threads and following discussions since the release of The draft.

I have come up on a couple of stumbling blocks ( or at least they seem to be hitchesfrom where i am setting)
they limit the designs of small craft in some odd ways. making them less than effective, and a bit....twitchy at worst.

First
Drive, power plant, fuel required minimums.

I pointed out earlier that a 100 ton or smaller small craft fitted with the required minimums will exceed the thrust charts maximums...with no variation on that theme. ( if it hasn't been changed. and I am reading the chart right) and can only be built by TL-16 ship yards since they will exceed the thrust limits for any lower tech.


Second:
Hull costs, if a small craft is not jump capable, and does not need to be built to the same tolerances, should there not be a price break on the hull.?

Third:
weapons, specifically bays, and barbettes. without these weapons heavier strike fighters and strike craft are fairly pointless, they have a maximum of 3 turret type weapons. Barbettes, or bays could be allowed if they were fixed in place....with a few limitations n using them in a dogfight if it is felt they are too powerful for fighter on fighter combat.

Fourth:
Armor, currently it is very possible to create a fighter so heavily armored it's resistant to almost any turret mounted weapon, and can outrun missiles with ease. Perhaps limit on armor for small craft is in order.Otherwise they can become speedster armadillos.

I've built one or two designs( actually quite a few during testing the new rules) that f are capable of ignoring missiles, pulse lasers, and beam lasers.

 

[Nerhesi]

Heya,

Point 1: Yup - perhaps the minimums should be scrapped.

Point 2: Meh - perhaps or perhaps not. I'm not sure jumping creates any more 'strain' then micrometeorites and other space trash that you hit traveling at incredible speeds. Not to mention weapons.

Point 3: Very much agreed with you here and I've already brought this forward to Matt's attention in several posts and through other communication. It's important that variety continues to exist that the 1 hardpoint is treated as just that - 1 Hardpoint. No further limitation. Power and space are the relevant limitations.

Point 4: I actually completely disagree here as I've tested this extensively with our group too Sorry! This is definitely not an issue with the new way combat is done. With Hull damage being done on EVERY hit, it means smallcraft will be incredibly more fragile because you're looking at hull values of approximately 10 lets say. When you take into account that Hull damage on every hit AND effect adding to every hit, we can say goodbye to the days that a fighter (Even a heavy fighter), would survive a hit from a particle bay This is of course a good thing.

A triple Pulse Turret now is effectively 2d6+4 damage, but with a +4 to hit. This means assuming equal skill shooting, dodging, etc... an even-hit is therefore doing 2d6+8, guaranteeing the death of a 50-ton fighter

I think, wbnc, we need to look at limiting how often people can add "reinforced hull"... to avoid that flying brick scenario from before.

I think we are very safe keeping that logically sound "hardness" of the armour the same for small craft. This is because Matt/Crew have been able to properly model how small-craft will crumple a lot faster due to guaranteed hull-damage. This is something I'm very happy about actually

 

[wbnc]

Heya,

Point 1: Yup - perhaps the minimums should be scrapped.

Point 2: Meh - perhaps or perhaps not. I'm not sure jumping creates any more 'strain' then micrometeorites and other space trash that you hit traveling at incredible speeds. Not to mention weapons.

Point 3: Very much agreed with you here and I've already brought this forward to Matt's attention in several posts and through other communication. It's important that variety continues to exist that the 1 hardpoint is treated as just that - 1 Hardpoint. No further limitation. Power and space are the relevant limitations.

Point 4: I actually completely disagree here as I've tested this extensively with our group too Sorry! This is definitely not an issue with the new way combat is done. With Hull damage being done on EVERY hit, it means smallcraft will be incredibly more fragile because you're looking at hull values of approximately 10 lets say. When you take into account that Hull damage on every hit AND effect adding to every hit, we can say goodbye to the days that a fighter (Even a heavy fighter), would survive a hit from a particle bay This is of course a good thing.

A triple Pulse Turret now is effectively 2d6+4 damage, but with a +4 to hit. This means assuming equal skill shooting, dodging, etc... an even-hit is therefore doing 2d6+8, guaranteeing the death of a 50-ton fighter

I think, wbnc, we need to look at limiting how often people can add "reinforced hull"... to avoid that flying brick scenario from before.

I think we are very safe keeping that logically sound "hardness" of the armour the same for small craft. This is because Matt/Crew have been able to properly model how small-craft will crumple a lot faster due to guaranteed hull-damage. This is something I'm very happy about actually

The hitch I ran into was between fighter on fighter engagements.... the test fight i ran ended u with neither fighter being able to knock the other down....unless I built them below their max allowed levels of armor and hull.

 

[Condottiere]

Since jump bubbles are default, depends on whether whatever is in the bubble is corrosive.

 

[wbnc]

Since jump bubbles are default, depends on whether whatever is in the bubble is corrosive.

I've always went with the "you don't want to graze the wall"..why not asks the player....Ever seen a Junebug hit a bug zapper?"approach.

I have always just assumed that the shi needs to be a certain size for the bubble to stay stable...or if using the old hull grid standard, the grid had to be of X size to effect a jump.

My Universe requires both, an intact jump grid, to form the bubble, and tons of liquid hydrogen to inflate the bubble and keep it away form the hull... so I justified it as the ship just was not big enough to keep the process stable...personally I like the idea of special purpose jump capable small craft.

but I am not going to try and push that boulder up a hill...its just too ingrained into the world, and system.

 

[Condottiere]

I liked designing smallcraft starships, but jump torpedoes convinced me that there exists a threshold.

I put it at a hundred tonnes, a one percent leeway, and increasing destabilization upto ten percent, either way.

 

[wbnc]

I liked designing smallcraft starships, but jump torpedoes convinced me that there exists a threshold.

I put it at a hundred tonnes, a one percent leeway, and increasing destabilization upto ten percent, either way.

maybe a TL-limit..make jump drives for smaller vessels around TL-15,-16 or better...that way occasionally the players can run into something that shouldn't work.or they have only hear rumors hinting the "big brain boys" had a secret project in the works.

 

[Nerhesi]

The hitch I ran into was between fighter on fighter engagements.... the test fight i ran ended u with neither fighter being able to knock the other down....unless I built them below their max allowed levels of armor and hull.

Hmmm never ran into that - unless we purposely created that certain scenario.... We had a name for but it wasn't limited to small craft at all. It was creating a tl15 armour craft that is only armed with tl8/9 bea! Lasers.

So wether it is a 15 armour fighter or a 15 armour destroyer, if they only have beam laser turrets then they can't hurt each other (actually they can even with this setup) - but that is bad design not a system fault. Like battle armour using a broadsword

All out testing showed that fighters killed each other and died to other ships faster than in mgt1 due to 2 reasons I mentioned:

Hull dmg from every hit, and
Effect adding to damage.

Both of these reasons now meant that no matter how tough ur armour is, you can still be hurt even by a triple beam turret! And that weapons you were previously immune to, can now actually one shot you (e.g. Missiles, triple pulse or plasma turrets, etc)

 

[wbnc]

thing is 10-20 ton vessels only carry one gun....

Small Craft
Ships of less than 100 tons have a single Hardpoint but the weapons that may be fitted to them are greatly limited. A Hardpoint on a small craft must be a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this).

A ship of 20 tons or less may only have one weapon attached to its fixed mount. A ship of 21-50 tons may have two weapons attached, and a ship of more than 50 tons may have three weapons attached to the fixed mount.

A single pulse or beam laser can be ignored, if you have decent armor, even with effect added. 10 points of armor..max for crystal Iron....with reflec means only missiles particle beams and other weapons can get through your armor...and outrunning a missile in a small craft isn't hard...the minimum tonnage for s maneuver drive gives a 20 ton vessel.thrust 16.

to answer the question. just a TL-12 fighter for a test...I didnt have to try hard to create one that was able to ignore anything below fifty tons, which could use a triple mount and burn through it's armor.

armor: 2.5 tons 10 pts plus reflec 13 pts vs lasers
Drive 2 tons minimum allowed, 10% of total tonnage
(which breaks the chart since thrust 16 is the result, and that is not allowed until TL-16, technically this is not possible at tl-12. SInce max tonnage for drives of a 20 ton vessel at TL-12 is 7% which is below the two ton minimum size.)

Powerplant 6 ton 90 power TL-12 reactor
power requirements:
basic systems 4 pts
M-drive 64
weapons 8
sensors basic military 2tons
cockpit 1.5
fixed mount + fire control 1 ton

this is rough build, but a 15 ton fighter that has thrust 16, ignores all beut the best shots from turret weapons, and can outrun missiles....


this is assuming you can even build it under the rules...since 2 tons of drives is enough to generate thrust 16..which isn't allowed until TL-16...under the rules as they stand you cant build a small craft under 30 tons until TL-16 .....unless am totally misreading the rules..and if I am ignore me and send me a polite note explaining them as they should read...I have read them a dozen times.

 

[AndrewW]

A single pulse or beam laser can be ignored, if you have decent armor, even with effect added. 10 points of armor..max for crystal Iron....with reflec means only missiles particle beams and other weapons can get through your armor...and outrunning a missile in a small craft isn't hard...the minimum tonnage for s maneuver drive gives a 20 ton vessel.thrust 16.

Crystaliron can go to armour 13 (if TL 13 or higher, for TL 12 max would be 12).

(which breaks the chart since thrust 16 is the result, and that is not allowed until TL-16, technically this is not possible at tl-12. SInce max tonnage for drives of a 20 ton vessel at TL-12 is 7% which is below the two ton minimum size.)

Doesn't break anything, manoeuvre drives can go up to thrust 11, which requires TL 17. If a drive comes out smaller then 2 tons, it's simply a 2 ton drive at whatever thrust you can do at that TL.

 

[Nerhesi]

wbnc I believe your math is a bit off bud

a single Pulse laser or beam laser can be ignored

This isn't quite right. Let's take you exact example - You have tl12 fighter that is using tl9 weapons rather than the available particle weapons or available advanced option (accurate, focus, etc)- but don't worry! We will take this weird fighter example!

10 armour, +3 Reflec. 13 effective.
Assume the weapon is a pulse laser.

Fighter on fighter stand off. Rather than both using their tl12 computers to run firecontrol to hit, we will err in your favour and have one person run evade, making it harder for them to be hit.

Evade/2 (tl11) vs fire control/4 (tl12). Total bonus of +2 to hit.

The pulse laser has an inherent +4 to hit.
Assuming pilots of equal skill and th pilot running evade is dodging, then that is a wash.
Assuming no lockon (50/50 but in your favour).

The pulse laser is fired with a +6 to hit, doing 2d6 damage +effect. The target number is an 8+ (assuming it is not short range or speed-band dog fight).

Yes some shots will hit for no damage and some will do dmage. Let's take a near-median dice-roll of 8 being rolled before modifiers.

2d6+6 damage v 13 armour.

If you roll 7 or lower for damage - then yes, you do no damage.
If your roll higher than 7, then you definitely cause damage.
If your roll 10 or higher - you've instantly destroyed that 3-hull fighter (at least based on current values).

This hardly qualifies as "can be ignored".

Also keep in mind this is the best stacked odds in the favour of the defender:

If both targets were running fire-control, the extra effect results in +2 damage.
If this was short range add +1 damage from the extra +1 to hit.
If this was a dogfight, the winner would get a +2, resulting in a further +2 damage.
If the firer had a lock-on, the target is toast because the boon effect doesn't just make it hit, it translates into a higher roll with is higher damage.
Weapon options such as Accurate or Focused allowing either +1 to hit (aka damage) or AP2 to the weapon, and still keeping the weapon at TL11 or under
A plasma, or particle weapon

Conclusion:

No you can't ignore a pulse laser even if you build an under-armed fighter. Even if your running evade software and dodging. This is especially true for smallcraft which now crumple from a big-hit as they should.

In MGT1 you can, in MGT2 you can't. MGT2 has meaningful tactical options even at the simple light fighter vs light fighter level. Do I run evade? Do I run fire control? Do I close range to dogfight? Do I stand off? Do I use missiles? Etc etc

Yes I'm sure we can build a TL15 fighter with 1 beam-laser that can't penetrate another of itself - but again, that's just bad design planning - the same as making 1000 or 10000 ton ship with 15 armour, screens, and no missiles/torps or anything bigger than beam lasers too

EDIT: If we reduce armour as you hypothesized, we would actually be at the scenario where every fighter hits and instantly kills the other fighters from long range. 2000 fighters show up on each side of a fleet engagement - round 1, whoever wins initiative evaporates 2000 fighters on the other side

 

[wbnc]

Doesn't break anything, manoeuvre drives can go up to thrust 11, which requires TL 17. If a drive comes out smaller then 2 tons, it's simply a 2 ton drive at whatever thrust you can do at that TL.

Okay, good answer.... that's not explained in the material I have ... it simply says you cant install a system that break the limit.


and yes my math was off..which happens...its why I ask questions when something doesn't make sense to me. Lucky for me there are people around who don't get tripped up as badly by math XD

With the basic percentage based ,work pods, escape/travel/inspection pods, EVA combat pods, etc.They don't exist as things stand.

It'd be nice to have a way to figure to be able to build them on paper. Rather than making a guesstimate that leaves you going..."It costs that much,and pops like a grape when hit, cause I say it does"....

but the lower limit pretty much makes that difficult.

If the limit is too keep tonnage of small craft above a certain limit (so they don't blur over into the vehicle size range) I can understand...
I just see that the new system has potential to allow for fairly small craft that could be useful in a game setting without having to do the ( albeit minimal) math to switch from ship scale, to vehicle scale.

Yeah it's a minor problem in the long run.. so on the plus side when my biggest issue is so minor the designers have done a good job.

wbnc I believe your math is a bit off bud

Numbers, details, and memory issues don't go together

Your reasoning ( your argument, and others) is solid, so that issue is resolved in my mind...

 

[Nerhesi]

Np - glad I could help! Math/balance are a bit of my strong point and passion. Now I don't play a game for the math, but I am passionate about the systems supporting the immersion a mind's eye/fluff

"Ooh yeah got my multi-million credit, tl14 battle dress with pgmp, Vulcan cannon, stealth, grav mobility and all the trimmings! Watch out! A-class merc comin to a neighborhood near y-"

Interrupted and silenced by a burst from an AK47 using armour piercing ammo circa 1970s insurgent - available for 300 credits from a truck near you...

Yeah - that very quickly turns my entire gaming group off of something... (MGT1 - Core rulebook. Fixed by later iterations of vehicl handbook an MGT2!)

 

[wbnc]

Np - glad I could help! Math/balance are a bit of my strong point and passion. Now I don't play a game for the math, but I am passionate about the systems supporting the immersion a mind's eye/fluff

"Ooh yeah got my multi-million credit, tl14 battle dress with pgmp, Vulcan cannon, stealth, grav mobility and all the trimmings! Watch out! A-class merc comin to a neighborhood near y-"

Interrupted and silenced by a burst from an AK47 using armour piercing ammo circa 1970s insurgent - available for 300 credits from a truck near you...

Yeah - that very quickly turns my entire gaming group off of something...

ya mean like the two billion dollar bomber shot down by a flock of geese.

Yeah, micro sized small craft could be abused to no end. But the down side is that one point of damage gets through yer turtle shell, and your millions of credits go up in flames.... Which is a self limiting factor built in...

below 5 tons you don't even have a single hull point.. any damage disables or destroys that multi million dollar whiz-bang 2000....so your not going to risk getting popped with a cheap toss away rocket form some yokel with an RPG...for that matter like you said a heavy machine gun will shred ya pretty nicely...

so goooo rightttttttt ahead and spend that few million credits you have burning a hole in your pocket. On a 5 ton laser armed pod...the locals will be real impressed....

until some old coot points that old muzzle loading punt gun in your direction,sends a three pound ball of lead your way. Then laughs at yer silly backside as you are carted away by the Medics....

 

[Chas]

Ah. Thanks for that combat layout Nerhesi. Helps a lot for those of us still trying to get up speed. Still haven't got my head around the boons properly and will need to dig about a bit. Definitely want a couple of those in an Appendix, say one for small craft and another for capital ships, along with a couple of example ship builds in the final book.

 

[Nerhesi]

Np gents. Wish we had a small-web program that was similar to the battle-tech battlespace java simulator where we could simulate a lot of the testing

I'm lucky I have a pretty big and mature gaming group that dove head-first into traveller is all!

 

[MongooseMatt]

Okay, in the next update...

1. Minimum removed on m-drives.
2. Big change in the way weapons are handled on small craft - should fix everything you raise here.

I don't want to change hull costs, as that would impact non-jumping big ships. As for armour, keep an eye on this in the next update, as I think the new weapon rules should more or less balance this.