Size of Traveller starships

Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
The huge disparity between vehicle and ship combat doesn't make a lot of sense.

A 10 ton fighter is smaller than some vehicles today (135 M3). A 100-ton Scout/Courier is about the size of some of the biggest vehicle around, so at the margins, the x10 weapon thing doesn't make sense.

Keep in mind that in effect everything is x50, including the armour, structure and hull values, that ships have MASSIVE fusion plants to power the guns with and that starship weapons have to be capable of doing something useful at up to 50,000km. It's not the hull size per se, but the environment in which the weapons are designed to operate. That 10 ton fighter isn't designed to fight tanks, but ships, so it needs a gun that can do that. It has 100pts armour and 50 structure in personal combat scale terms, comparable to a grav tank. The TL14 grav tank in Military Vehicles could fight it, and win (if it could catch it).

re big balls in space: a 14,000,000 m^3 sphere is about 300m in diameter - 1000 feet. Don't know where GURPS got 500' from, even with that big chunk of superstructure on the back. Maybe they confused diameter with radius...

Edit: D'oh! Tigress class are 500,000 dTons, not 1,000,000. My bad.
 
Ships in Star Wars universe have to be taken with a healthy dose of "it looks cooler to this in the movie" sort of reasoning. The Star Destroyer is designed to not only be intimidating, but to also be able to deploy a single ship to suppress insurrections on planets. If I recall the specs correctly it holds like 40,000 ground troops, their vehicles and even those silly walker AT-ATs. It's huge and and can dish out a ton of damage and hold its own against other capital ships. But it's a lot cooler to see small fighters run into the bridge of a ship and cause it to crash into another ship the size of a small moon (even it it's a SSD crashing into a fully-operational battle station).

I understand the small size of player ships in Traveller... It's tough to role-play characters jumping around the galaxy in multi-megaton starships. Though I've never really agreed with the paradigm of trade that Traveller puts forth. Assuming an industrialized star-faring society were roughly equivalent to our own little world, the economies of the world out-grew tramp freighters a long time ago. Major worlds (or in our lexicon large countires) depend on fast, cheap bulk freight to deliver goods from planet to planet. I find it hard to believe that most worlds are going to be self-sufficient in everything, so that the bulk of trade is simply opportunistic or luxury-goods based. If that were the case, then why hasn't that concept ever applied to trade in human history? And we don't even need to really talk about how people traverse from planet to planet...I'm betting that all the Type A free traders in the Traveller universe are not enough to move the billions of people that travel every week from planet to planet.

I've always assumed that there is a large fleet of freighters and liners that move the bulk of goods and people along the major spacelanes. A planet with a population in the billions is gonna generate a huge amount of commercial goods, consume a huge amount, and then there are the tens of thousands of people who are going to be travelling back and forth. Agents can work for some things, but people have always travelled to do business.

So has anyone else been curios as to why the merchant background has never really been fully defined and fleshed out? I guess in some ways as far as the game mechanics it isn't important, but then again neither would building the million-ton dreadnaughts either. Maybe as long as it has guns on it its cool?
 
phavoc said:
And we don't even need to really talk about how people traverse from planet to planet...I'm betting that all the Type A free traders in the Traveller universe are not enough to move the billions of people that travel every week from planet to planet.
I've always assumed that the Megacorps handle all the bulk transfer of goods and people with scheduled routes and large (5k ton and up) ships. The Type A and other smaller PC run ships are the equivilent of today's independant truckers, Fedex, UPS & other couriers as well as charter jets & busses.

Even in today's ecomony of container ships, super tankers, and 747s, we still have a lot of smaller courier type vessels moving goods and people.
 
phavoc said:
Ships in Star Wars universe have to be taken with a healthy dose of "it looks cooler to this in the movie" sort of reasoning. The Star Destroyer is designed to not only be intimidating, but to also be able to deploy a single ship to suppress insurrections on planets. If I recall the specs correctly it holds like 40,000 ground troops, their vehicles and even those silly walker AT-ATs. It's huge and and can dish out a ton of damage and hold its own against other capital ships. But it's a lot cooler to see small fighters run into the bridge of a ship and cause it to crash into another ship the size of a small moon (even it it's a SSD crashing into a fully-operational battle station).

Victory class star destroyers: 2,000 ground troops.

Imperial class star destroyer: 9,700 ground troops.

Super star destroyer: 38,000 ground troopers.

Eclipse class super star destroyer: (twice the size of the original super star destroyer) 150,000 ground troops.


In a military sense, the Super Star Destroyer was somewhat impractical, since a smaller ship could fulfill its mission duties. Rather, the Super Star Destroyers represented the Emperor's unlimited power and resources.
 
AndrewW said:
Victory class star destroyers: 2,000 ground troops.

Imperial class star destroyer: 9,700 ground troops.

Super star destroyer: 38,000 ground troopers.

Eclipse class super star destroyer: (twice the size of the original super star destroyer) 150,000 ground troops.


In a military sense, the Super Star Destroyer was somewhat impractical, since a smaller ship could fulfill its mission duties. Rather, the Super Star Destroyers represented the Emperor's unlimited power and resources.

Yah, you are right. The Imperial SD only carried 9,700 troops (an Imperial division). It's 1600m long, carries over 100 smaller craft (fighters and gunboats), as well as 20 AT-AT walkers and troop shuttles and other equipment. Apparently sucks to be a stormtrooper as they gotta walk everywhere, no listing for smaller craft like tanks and APC's.

The listing I found for it has cargo capacity for 36,000 metric tons, but I dunno if that's supposed to weight or volume based... but I'm betting its weight.

It's also supposed to be able to do 2,300g for max accel... That's a little faster than the Traveller universe!
 
phavoc said:
Yah, you are right. The Imperial SD only carried 9,700 troops (an Imperial division). It's 1600m long, carries over 100 smaller craft (fighters and gunboats), as well as 20 AT-AT walkers and troop shuttles and other equipment. Apparently sucks to be a stormtrooper as they gotta walk everywhere, no listing for smaller craft like tanks and APC's.

There's still the 20 AT-AT's which carry 5 speeder bikes and up to 40 troops. And 30 AT-ST's. Though yup the majority get to walk.
 
phavoc said:
It's also supposed to be able to do 2,300g for max accel... That's a little faster than the Traveller universe!

depends what planet's gravity we are talking about. :p

There is certainly no evidence that terran gravitational forces would be involved :)
 
phavoc said:
So has anyone else been curios as to why the merchant background has never really been fully defined and fleshed out? I guess in some ways as far as the game mechanics it isn't important, but then again neither would building the million-ton dreadnaughts either. Maybe as long as it has guns on it its cool?

Well, I'm not sure I'd agree that the merchant trade hasn't been fleshed out or ignored. Both Classic and Mongoose Traveller have added to the basic rulebook with Merchant Prince. Trade has always been a core part of the rulebooks, and there's not really as much cool hardware for the non-military side of the game to spark a new supplement. Also, anyone with one or two relevant skills can find a ship and sign on as a Medic/Steward/Pilot/Engineer/etc - the same is not true of the military careers - even Mercenaries would be reluctant to hire a pilot with no military or combat background. Free Traders tend to be crewed with all sorts, not just career Merchants.

At its heart, trade is dull (but reliably profitable). It serves as a backbone to more exciting adventure.

I agree that the free trader crowd are more akin to couriers... but they are also akin to taxis vs trains and charter light aircraft vs jumbo jets. Small, flexible and running with a very tight profit margin.
 
So I was reading this article on the sizes of the Death Stars. Supposedly the "official" sizes are 120km diameter for the first one, and 160km diameter for the second one, however, lots of data gathered by analyzing various still shots of the movies and the concept artwork suggests they should be much bigger - possibly as much as 1000km in diameter. But for the sake of the following, let's go with the "official" size of the first one.

At 120km in size, you're not going to be able to walk from one side of the station to the other in a single shift. So you have to assume they have an extensive network of lifts that are incredibly high speed - just to reduce travel time from one side to the other to an hour, you're looking at lifts that go 120kph (or 75 MPH for us Yanks). And that's assuming you're going through the core, which is supposdely where the reactor is - meaning any lift route would actually be longer than 120km.

It gets more outrageous - the area covered by a single deck at the equator of the Death star covers over 35,000 square kilometers. To put that in perspective, two of the largest military bases in the world, Fort Hood, TX and Fort Benning, GA are 870 sq km and 737 sq km respectively.

Based on numbers I could find for the length of the Super Star Destroyer - about 18-19.6 km, and further measurements of the WotC SSD model I have, the SSD is about 8km wide and over 1 km thick. If you assume decks of an average of 10 meters (well over the average Traveller 3 meter deck), I'm estimating that the total deck area of an SSD is over 1500 sq km, or roughly somewhere around the combined sizes of Forts Hood and Benning.

The more I look at the actual numbers of the sizes of the Star Wars ships, the more I think the Emporer was compensating for a small, well, you know.
 
kristof65 said:
To put that in perspective, two of the largest military bases in the world, Fort Hood, TX and Fort Benning, GA are 870 sq km and 737 sq km respectively.

That all? The MCAGCC (Twentynine Palms, CA) is:

596,000 acres, 932 square miles, 2,413.8689188 square kilometers.
 
rust said:
kristof65 said:
For the record, I think someone could actually use the ships as designed in Traveller and make a pretty impressive looking movie ...
Andrew Boulton, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsX4e7sZ_Ek&feature=related
That was the dumbest thing (although nice work) I've seen about space flight, missiles in space, etc..

The two "main/captial" ships are NOT streamlined for entering atmo, so why do the fighters have wings...

One looks like either:
A) Darth Vader's shuttle in the Star Wars Movies
B) An Original Battlestar Galactica Viper
C) A ST:OTS Tholian ship with tail fins.

The other fighter has missiles... carried under the wings.. O.O

The "viper" and the missiles also do these nice turns, gentle arcs... but nothing has any kind of maneuver jets.


You want to see space based fighters (and yes they are also designed for atmospheric but I don't agree with their aerodynamic theory) are the Vipers in Sci-Fi's Battlestar Galactica. I love the mini-series/pilot where the vipers first go out... and you see the jets in the nose to flip them over... and they fire at the cylons behind them while going backwards... very accurate portrayal.
 
Hello to all here at Traveller forums,

I have to say that Andrews videos are inspiring, although they have some minor flaws with real "physics" or such, but that has never bothered me.

Keep up the good work!
 
GamerDude said:
That was the dumbest thing (although nice work) I've seen about space flight, missiles in space, etc..
Well, the order was "impressive looking", not "realistic physics" ... 8)
 
The ships in "Striker" move more realistically. Choreographing a dogfight is a nightmare, juggling vector equations on top is too painfull.
 
I don't think the wings on the fighters is really a problem at all. Alot just depends on your point of view on technology and such.

For instance, I'm assuming that the long dart shaped fighters with the stubby wings and tail fins is an Imperial Rampart fighter.

On the Rampart fighters the stubby wings and tail fins can serve amny purposes, including serving as ;

locations for additional planar sensors,
external weapon mount racks,
locations for maneuvering thrusters

Specifically, although the bulbous nose on the fighter probably might house a large search and fire control radar for detecting contacts in fornt of the fighter, the tail and wing surfaces could house a planar arrays to search above, below and to the sides of the craft. This could potentially be of greater importance on a space vehcile than on an aircraft because in space (depending on how you interpret/envision space travel) there probably isn't any real up or down (as opposed to aircraft operating planet side) and as such targets may potentially be operating at right angles to you rather than in the same (or a similar) plane to you.

As far as mounting weapons like missiles on stub wings like appendages, there could potentially be some benefit in doing so rather than mounting them internally. For instance, it kind seems that it could be fairly easy to run out your ordnance on a grav cart on quickly attach them fairly easily to the stub wings, while work is ongoing on refueling or maintaining the rest of the craft, as opposed to having to more carefully load a missile into an internal bay, or attaching it directly to (or under) the craft. Additionally if an external missile misfires or gets damaged, it may be possible that it might do less damage to the craft carrying it, if its externally mounted rather than internally mounted or if its directly mounted to the craft. And by externally mounting them it may be possible to fit larger or less standard sized pieces under the stub wings than if the craft had an internal bay, etc. And since there is no resistance in space, there would likely be less drawbacks than there are for externally mounting missiles on aircraft (such as the added air drag that external ordnace on aircraft produce).

Finally, when you look at aircraft like the BAe Harrier and/or space craft like the current Space Shuttle you will notice relatively small thruster ports for adjusting the attitude of the craft. From physics I believe that the farther you locate those small thrusters from the centroid of the craft the more effective they should be at changing a craft's attitude. Thus, I'd suspect that if you were to use the stub wings and fins on one of these fighters to locate these thrusters they would be more effective especially for fine maneuevering (such as launching and recovery) etc. By locating maneuvering thrusters capable of operating in opposite directions at opposite ends (or sides) of the craft I believe that you could get the craft to roll, pitch, and yaw fairly effeciently.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Regards

PF
 
GamerDude said:
You want to see space based fighters (and yes they are also designed for atmospheric but I don't agree with their aerodynamic theory) are the Vipers in Sci-Fi's Battlestar Galactica. I love the mini-series/pilot where the vipers first go out... and you see the jets in the nose to flip them over... and they fire at the cylons behind them while going backwards... very accurate portrayal.
IMO, Babylon 5 has some of the best space based fighters and fighter combat sequences. They did the realistic movement and ship facing oriented along a different axis than direction (IE, "flying backwards") long before the reimagined Galactica came along.

As for wings on a fighter, well, human reactions/emotions don't always make sense when purchasing things - some things are simply there to look cool. If not, cars in the 50s never would have had tail fins. Just because something is practical, doesn't mean it sells well - I present to you the Pontiac Aztek:
http://www.google.com/images?q=pont...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQsAQwAA
 
The starfury is definitely the 'original' realistic orbital fighter, and for a pure orbital fighter is hard to beat.

The Viper gets a pass as it's meant to be a combined atmospheric/orbital fighter (which looks at least slightly more capable of atmospheric flight than the Thunderbolt, the B5 equivalent), and it certainly behaves properly and looks very pretty whilst doing so.
 
I should also point out that Traveller space combat generally lasts several hours, with the ships being 1000s of km apart. Also, lasers and particle beams are invisible, and missiles don't leave trails (sorry, BSG).

You have to use a *lot* of artistic licence to make it visually interesting.
 
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