SIZE MODIFIERS

joe90

Mongoose
I am referring to an earlier post by some other dude!

My main concern is with the new size table used by Mongoose in the book and its effect on DV.

If I am reading the table correctly, all humans (Personal size) receive a +4 bonus to their DV, Tiny WarMeks receive a +2 bonus, Small +1, etc.

However the examples used in the personal combat section don't seem to mention the +4 Dv size bonus anywhere. Now I recall reading somewhere in the book that the size modifier does not apply when personal size combatants are shooting at each other. Is this right ? IIRC it only appeared once in the Race section and is not mentioned anywhere in the combat sections.

If this is correct, then the base DV for a human when attacked by a human is 10 (+ Reflex save modifer), while the base DV for a human shooting at a Tine WarMek is 12. Meaning it is easier for a human to shoot a human than it is for him to shoot a WarMek twice his size.

There appears to be a fundamental flaw with the sizes in this case.

Anyone know the correct procedure for this??????????
On a previous post it wasn't really answered all that well.
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
Ok, here we go.

P.86 in the rulebook, Table 5-3 DV Size Modifiers for all objects of all sizes. You add these to the base DV of 10 for all objects, Meks(see later), etc.

So you add the modifier to the base 10 for everything.

So a soldier size Personnel has DV = 10 + Reflex Save Bonus + Size Modifier
= 10 + Reflex Save + 4= 14 + Reflex Modifier (From P. 81 and Table 5-3)

A mek however has

Defence Value = 10 (Base) + Pilot Dex Mod + Speed Modifier(+1 for every full 15m moved in the previous action) + Size Modifier

BUT the War Mek Stats have the size mods included in the DV so a Ipex Rec4 Scout Warmek (Page 130) has a base DV (Inc size modifer) of 12
(10 + 2 for Tiny size), stationary so no speed modifier.

Rec4 DV= 12 + Pilot Dex Mod

So if the pilot has the same Dex stat as the infantryman has a reflex save (just to keep it simple), the soldier has in effect a + 2 bonus to DV, which is what you'd expect, since Tiny only has a +2 mod in Table 5-3, whereas PErsonnel has a plus 4. what makes Meks hard to hit is the speed bonus to DV.

Is that clear now Joe90? hope so.

LBH

EDITED as I got some saves nomenclature wrong, and was equating Dex mods between a mek and a soldier when I should have compared the soldier's reflex save to the Mek pilot's dex mod.
 

joe90

Mongoose
Yeah nice one. Thanks a lot for that. You explained it very well and it is much clearer. Thankyou very much.
Hey, im actually beginning to enjoy this game. Great having these forums here. Id be lost without your help. I have had so many problems with rules but they have all been sorted out thanks to guys like you.
As I mentioned in an earlier posting Ive got a campaign to run next month so im trying as hard as I can to memorize all the goddam rules before I start. Will probably be posting loads more queries as I go along but im sure you guys will help. My campaign will start with the players being offered work as a mercenary company with a $20,000,000 start budget. They will then have to purchase their meks and buy assets etc.
Im then going to plan a mission where they have to destroy and find the source of professional hackers and the signal is coming from an unknown source. When the players reach the destination they will find an armoured complex defended by infantry and tanks. Will they decide to sneak past them or confront them with combat. Should be an easy job for the meks but unknown to the players deep inside the complex lies a top secret mek. This mek is armed and dangerous. The players need to find the plans for the mek which are hidden in the complex. Once they have these designs they can then begin constructing the nifty mek providing they have the capital to do so. But hey this mek is lethal to the players and this is the source of the hacking and jamming of comms processors. Even if the meks find the source they need to work out a way to stop the jamming as their sensors and comms keep malfunctioning and they have problems communicating. They are alone in their meks and cannot communicate with each other. This is going to cause problems amongst the players. Once they have destroyed the source,communications go back to normal. How will the players work as a team without communication feeling alone inside their mek. It will create a good atmosphere and a sense of loneliness. ANyway im going to stop rambling on and Ive got a rough idea of what I want but thanks a lot guys for helping me out. If I get any more rule queries you can guarantee to see it in here. CHeers and thanks again!!!!
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
You're welcome Joe90.

I edited my post slightly just now. I got some nomenclature wrong, but the point stil stands and the method is correct.

Does it show I only read those rules to answer your question? I'm good at rules lawyering on short notice!

I've examined my now complete collection of A:2089 supplements.

Pity High Frontierand Soldier's Companion are in Black and White, the rest are in glorious Mongoose colour. Gess it was to save costs, those books are $3 cheaper on the back.

Does anyone know if Mystic Eye ever bought out Upgrades : Armour, or are there any other supplements other than the core book and the 6 listed on the Mongoose site?

LBH
 

joe90

Mongoose
Mystic Eye never brought out UPGRADES:ARMOUR. Still awaiting for it to come out. I dont think it will. Maybe they sacked the idea. WHo knows.
But im sure if it does it will be in these forums and everyone will be talking about it so I guess we just have to wait (indefinately??????????????????????????????????????????)
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
Thanks joe.

I've never had a confirmed owner of Upgrades Armour so I consider it non existent. but if it came out I'd buy it!

Oh yes!

LBH
 

joe90

Mongoose
ok so a characters DV is 10+total reflex save bonus + size modifier so how come in the example on page 82 it says:

For example,Al Jennings is a 3rd level soldier with a dexterity of 15 and the Lightning Reflexes feat. A 3rd level soldier has a reflex save bonus of +1. Combined with the +2 bonus from his DEx modifier and a further + 2 bonus from his Lightning Reflexes feat Al jennings has a total defence value of 15.

How come the size modifier is not added to this (personnel are classed as having a +4 size modifier so surely this should read DV=19.

Can someone help me out with this please.
Also I have another query but I think it is a typo.

on page 106 it says:

an ordinary automobile has acceleration of 20 and deceleration of 40.
IF it is travelling at speed 120,it may either decelerate down to speed 80, accelerate up to speed 200 or any other speed in between as a free action by the driver.

Surely they mean accelerate up to 140. As 120 + acceleration =140
Where did they get the 200 from???
I guess this is a typo but just wanted confirmation of this.
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
OK, here goes.

I'll take the second query first. The speed/accel/decel thing is probably a typo. They had a similar thing happen with spaceship collision damage in the B5 book.

As for the DV thing. The example on P82 comes before the section on personnel attacking Meks (P.86) so I'm guessing that when equal sized foes are fighting the size modifier to DV is ignored. Were a soldier attacking a Mek you would factor in size mods. Think of it as Mek weapons not being best suited to attacking small soldiers but soldier weapons are.

Also take a look at the paragraph on Combatant sizes on P.87. It mentions a little about the sizes in the game and also notes that unlike in D&D there is no size modifier to your attack rolls. This kind of jives with not getting your size mod to your DV when attacking same size people/meks as it doesn't make it easier to dodge or harder to hit something the same size that you are.

I'm no expert, anyone care to make a ruling or express another opinion?

LBH
 

joe90

Mongoose
Yeah sounds perfectly logical to me. So what youre saying is if a small mek attacks a small mek there is no size modifier as they are both the same size. If a large mek attacks a small mek there is a size modifier to both parties. If a human attacks a mek then human has a size mod of +4
and the mek whatever size it is gets a size modifier. And is 2 humans attack each other there is no size mod. Ok cheers
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
Sounds like you've got the gist of my ramblings joe. Although remember in the human vs Mek situation the Mek could be a medium with size mod 0.

ANyone else agree with what I've come up with?

LBH
 

Lane Shutt

Mongoose
The basic formulas are

Human
DV = 10+total reflex save bonus + size modifier
Personnel shooting at other personnel sized targets can ignore the size mod
but any vehicle or WarMek would not.

WarMek
DV = 10 (Base) + Pilot Dex Mod + Speed Modifier(+1 for every full 15m moved in the previous action) + Size Modifier + special modifiers

However the Mek tables have DV adjusted for size and data sheets include any special modifiers (there are a couple designs with +/- 1 to DV) so
DV = Adjusted Base + Pilot Dex Mod + Speed Modifier


Also worth noting is the poorly placed rule stating that size modifiers are not added to attack rolls in A:2089. This is a major change from the basic D20 system. Since the vast majority of combat in A:2089 is ranged the size mod to attack rolls is not really appropriate.

--
Lane
 

Kraken

Mongoose
I still think there is a flaw with the size mods. in A:2089. What everyone has said here is right by the rules, but a few problems are encountered when you put it in practice.

From Lane SHutt's reply, a Human has DV = 10+total reflex save bonus + size modifier and we ignore size mod to DV when another human shoots at him.

So when a human shoots at a human we have a DV of 10 + reflex bonus (size mod = 0 in this case). But if the human shoots at a tiny warmek, it is harder to hit it. DV = 10 + size mod (+2) + Pilot's Dex mod, etc. So you have a DV of 12 + mods for Dex, speed, etc.

So, ing Dexterity and Speed modifiers and assuming a Base Reflex save of +0 just to clarify, we end up with a situation like this:

* Human shoots at Diminutive (+8 size mod) he needs Target Number of 18.
* Human shoots at Personnal (+4 size mod, ignored in this case), he needs TN of 10.
* Human shoots at Tiny Mek (Size mod +2), he needs TN 12.
* Human shoots at Small (size mod +1) Mek he needs TN 11.
* Human shoots at Medium Mek, he needs TN 10.
etc.

I hope it is clear what I am trying to get at here. A human shooting at a human needs the same base TN as if he is firing at a Medium Mek!

I think this needs to be reworked. I was wondering how everyone else handles this weird inconsistancy.

My friends and I were discussing it over a few beers the other day and came up with the idea of applying the size mods to attack roll again (as in the base D20 rules) but assigning sizes to Mek weapons so the smaller weapons (such as machineguns) have a better chance to hit than the beefy weapons like railguns which would be harder to bring to bear on an enemy.
 

Fortunatus

Mongoose
In my experience the best method is to revert to the normal d20 size scale whenever infantry is attacking and switch back to the Armageddon scale whenever a vehicle is firing. Thus a tiny warmek become large, small becomes huge, etc. This method has worked quite well for my group, and there have been no problems with implementing it after we copied down a size chart for both scales to speed things up.
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
We could just add the size mod all the time, that way a soldier shooting another soldier would have a base target number of 14 inc the size mod.

The problem probably has a root in the no size mod to the attack bonus rule.

LBH
 
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