Simplify Grapple Please.

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

I do not know if it is me or not, but Grapple is so damned confusing. Just the way it is written...

Can someone simply it for me on this thread. FIgures, the most confusing thing is the most used by my players.

 

[rabindranath72]

It is not you, the THING is objectively flawed and practically useless, unless you are an accountant. You can give a look at C&C's grappling rules, or even the old AD&D UA rules.

 

[Majestic7]

I don't really think them to be that confusing. But then, I played a wrestler in one D&D campaign and thus learned every detail of the rules. In Conan, with the Crushing Grip feat, grappling is one of the most potent combat styles available, toe to toe with Power Attack combined with two-handed weapons.

Read these all about grappling -articles, all of them and it becomes much more clear. If grapple value of a character is not simply BAB + Str bonus for some reason, write it down separately.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050315a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a

Things to remember after reading the articles I linked - though I'm still using AE, so these things might not be valid anymore in the Second Edition, if that is your preferred ruleset.

1) Wrestling characters can't dodge or parry attacks from other people not involved in the match - though if they try to stab each other with daggers or something, they can dodge each other. Maneuvers are exceptions, like one of my favorite maneuvers all time, Human Shield. Yes, this means that holding someone while the Zamoran cuts his throat is a very valid tactic, since he'll be vulnerable to sneak attack while grappling. Oh and if the intended target is using the other guys as a Human Shield, it is possible that the Zamoran thief sneak attacks him instead. Nothing funnier than friendly casualties by accident.

2) You can make an opposed grapple check to try to damage your opponent in a grapple. The damage received is the unarmed damage the character causes. Thus, if he has the Brawl feat or other ways to increase unarmed damage, it will be higher than otherwise. Keep this in mind. Crushing Grip is naturally an exception.

3) Light, natural and unarmed weapons can be used in grapple to attack, but it comes with -4 penalty to hit and the guy in the receiving end uses his full Dodge - he can't parry. You don't really need to know what light weapons are by definition, just play it by the ear - if it is a small weapon you could think of using in a wrestling match, it is or at least should be a light weapon.

4) In Conan, the concentration check to cast spells while grappled is 20 + PP cost of the spell. Defensive blast can be used as normal.

5) Shooting or throwing things in grapple without Improved Precise Shot confers 50% chance to hit other target than intended. In my current campaign one of the characters was grappling with a ghoul and another characters was shooting in the melee. He scored a critical hit and shot his friend in the eye.

6) While a character is pinned in grapple, the pinning person may prevent him from speaking. I've houseruled that with a succesful pin you can as well prevent the losing side from looking at you, thus negating Evil Eye spells, War of Soul and other things requiring eye contact.

7) Remember size differences. Creatures can only try to grapple things that are one size category larger than them. So a human could try to wrestle with a horse or a bear, but not with an elephant. However the larger creatures can decide to grapple things much smaller than them. Usually big things have so big grapple checks that the poor victims have no chance of getting away from the grip once it is established, unless they roll natural 20.

 

[Ichabod]

I'm less concerned with how confusing it is than how boring it is (since, like, a ridiculous amount of animals/monsters get free grapple attacks*).

However, in terms of confusion, we had a problem last time trying to figure out what happens when you have one group grappling join another group grappling, what it actually means to trying to achieve different things while in a multigrapple. In general, we aren't terribly clear on how movement works in a grapple (just kind of make up something appropriate).

* Well, a reason to use ranged attacks, I suppose.

 

[Sutek]

Movement and several other elements relating to occupied square get really muddy with grappling because it's the only time that two people can occupy the same square at the same time. To simplifiy this and make the movement rules sort of simply "postponed" I house ruled that the initiator of a grapple is occupying the same square effectively, but is actually still tied to a neighboring square, and diagonals aren't an option. The causes two things to happen:

A - If the grapple is ever broken, it is immediately clear where the initiator must be placed; the target always retains his original square, unless movement repositions the combatants. In the latter case, the initiator always states his actual square relative to his target's square.

B - It means that others can join the grapple (which the grappling combatants have no defense against), but have to occupy these "actual" squares. Thus, grapples have a space taht they take up and only three additional grapplers can target the original target. Other combatants joining the grapple have to state thier "actual square" relative to whom they are able to attack based onl available squres.

In a nutshell, I limit it to four (4) grapplers on the initial target, and then additional grapplers have to grapple one of those attackers, or use the Aide Other action to buff thier grapple on the initial target. It limits the number of people involved in a fairly realistic way, and doesn't end me up with 11 people somehow occupying the same square in a grapple attack.

Also, don't forget the rule of multiple combatants. Nothing says specifically that it is used in the STR checks for grapples, but it makes sense. The more people involved in grappling a single target ought to make it increasingly difficult to break that combined grapple.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Thanks Guys. Really appreciate it.

 

[Sutek]

No problem, but I think I've come up with a pretty good fix. I haven't tested it, nor have I gone through every standing Grappling rule to see if it opperates like I think it will, but the up front mechanic solves a load of problems, I think.

PREMISE: Grapple is screwey because it jumps out of the basic mechanic of the D20 combat system. The initiating character tries to start a Grapple by trying to hit, then STR tests are needed if he does hit. There's a lot of rolling involved, and additional rounds and addition Grappling combatants confuse and bog thingsdown even more/

SOLUTION: First off, dup the STR roll off up front. The target of a Grapple instead adds his STR bonus and SIZE bonus to his DV. This makes Grappling stronger opponents more difficult right off the bat, but also allows Grappling regardless of Size category. A PC can thus Grapple an elephant if he wants to, hang on and climb up its back. He could Grapple a wyrm to try and slit it's throat or to keep an elemental held so that others in his party can attack it more easily. In subsequent rounds, only the individual whose turn it is gets to act - no STR roll-offs to break the Grapple, instead the same mechanic is used: attack roll where opponent's STR bonus is added to his DV.

I'll re-read the rules for initiating again, although I think that works in and of itself. But taking out the re3petative die rolling for the STR roll-offs makes things more simple right away.

Further, my idea (for now anyway) is that Grappling opponents are considered Prone and anyone outside the Grapple can only melee attack either Grappler. A miss indicates that the attack roll is applied to the other Grappler's DV to see if he is hit instead by mistake!

Others may only get involved as additional Grapplers once the initial Target is Pinned.

I'll do more research and see if this works, but I had ot get it down and thought you lot could help me work out the kinks to boot! :wink:

 

[librarycharlie]

My campaign simplified by quite a lot.

Grappling is an opposed Melee Attack roll.

That's it.

Each uses whatever Melee Attack roll they want. Usually this is their highest possible melee attack roll (all weapon and improved grapple +4 modifiers are included).

Once you've succeeded, you deal damage with a light weapon, or unarmed damage. If you failed, you wasted your turn.

A grappled person can either deal light/unarmed damage or simply try to de-grapple.

As a group, we hate grappling. While there are some great grappling feats, the whole system proved too unwieldy for the campaign, so we simplified and basically never use it anymore.

 

[Sutek]

Essentially, that's what I'm thinking, but I'm considering more to it.

If the DV + STR bonus is used to hit against, and the initiator of the Grapple is just rolling to hit normally with success resulting in both himself and his opponent counting as prone, it reflects the abstractness of the rest of the combat system.

I like the idea of maintaining the Grapple and Pinning, but all the opposed STR checks are what make it tedious. Kist boil it down to a normal attack roll verus the opponent's DV+STR bonus and then you can initiate, break free, or do any of the other choices listed under the regular Grappling rules.

That's another problem with the RAW, that you can choose any Grappling action choice without your opponent being able to do much about it, and andy good martial artist will tell you that STR has rather little to fo with Grappling.

What the rules need, in my opinion, is a disctiction between vjaotic bar room wrestling and martial arts style take downs. That's the next direction I'll go in: Feats.

I'm still mulling a bunch of stuff over, but if anyone has any ideas please post them. I'm trying to start simple (like a Feat that allows you to avoid being Prone when you initiate a Grapple, but your opponent does also). Stuff to eventually drive the Grappling rules into martial arts style joint locks and holds wtihout complicating Grappling any more than it being a simple attack roll (including a character's multiple attacks) in a given round.

For instance, even without any Feats, I imagine this working like this: A character with three attacks decides to Grapple and rolls to hit. His first attack hits, initiiating the Grapple, his second performs a Pinning hold and his third is an attempt to invert his target's joint dealing damage. Obviously, he needs a Gull ROund Action to pull all of that off, and AoAs would apply, but even in a skeletal form, this already seems to work better.