Signals from the Core Podcast
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Which is completely wrong, but never mind, it is his take.
It has two jobs:
confirm the Emperor
dissolve the Imperium
It has no day to day administrative functions, it is really a shareholders meeting place.*
It has no function within the Imperial government beyond the two I listed.
The Emperor is an absolute monarch, look what happened when the Moot moved against Lucan...
but I digress, Mongoose is changing things.
*I describe it as a shareholders meeting since another way to look at the Imperium is its alter ego - Cleon Industries.
It has two jobs:
confirm the Emperor
dissolve the Imperium
It has no day to day administrative functions, it is really a shareholders meeting place.*
It has no function within the Imperial government beyond the two I listed.
The Emperor is an absolute monarch, look what happened when the Moot moved against Lucan...
but I digress, Mongoose is changing things.
*I describe it as a shareholders meeting since another way to look at the Imperium is its alter ego - Cleon Industries.
Jarac Rassen
Mongoose
It's pretty timely that I'm reading through Mongoose 2nd Ed's The Third Imperium right now.
It's the advisory council to the Emperor. It's the Emperor's eyes and ears for what's going on out in the Sectors beyond the Core Sector.
Finally, there's the Right of Assassination. Which ties into the "Confirm the Emperor" job. And unfortunately, helped lead to the Plankwell's Civil War and the (many) Emperors of the Flag.
So yes, on paper, the Emperor is the absolute authority. But the Moot does have a check on them; albeit a double-edge one. And, the Emperors tend to consider their advice, and can take it or leave it. Which is usually all the nobility asks for.
Yes, and no. It's kind of complicated. On paper, you're right. The Moot only has two jobs: confirm the Emperor and dissolve the Imperium. In practice, the Moot does quite a bit more.
It's the advisory council to the Emperor. It's the Emperor's eyes and ears for what's going on out in the Sectors beyond the Core Sector.
Finally, there's the Right of Assassination. Which ties into the "Confirm the Emperor" job. And unfortunately, helped lead to the Plankwell's Civil War and the (many) Emperors of the Flag.
So yes, on paper, the Emperor is the absolute authority. But the Moot does have a check on them; albeit a double-edge one. And, the Emperors tend to consider their advice, and can take it or leave it. Which is usually all the nobility asks for.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It has no advisory powers, the Moot has no function within the Imperial government, Lucan suspended it with a wave of his hand for example.
Nor is it the Emperor's eyes and ears - for that the Emperor has the IISS "special branch", INI, IAI, every sector duke wanting to keep their status above the subsector dukes.
The Moot is not a parliament, senate, congress, it is a shareholder meeting for Cleon Industries.
The much vaunted right of assassination was superseded by the open rebellion of fleet admirals and the civil war, look how the right of assassination claimed by Dulinor was enforced. If you can enforce your claim to the throne after assassinating the emperor then the Moot will nod along, if you can't there will be no assassination in the first place. Dulinor expected the Moot to follow the right of assassination protocol, they didn;t because other forces within the Imperial family were stronger, i.e. Lucan's claim to the throne.
Note that the Moot tried to make itself more important following Strephon's assassination - compare the mentions of the Moot In CT Library Data with MT (not MgT) Library Data. They were dissolved within the year and never re-instated. The Emperor is the monarch absolute, it is best the Moot remembers that fact.
But it is Mongooses to retcon as they see fit, if they want to grant the Moot some sort of parliamentary, senate, congress status then so be it, but the nature of the Imperium changes.
And it is up to the individual referee how they want it to work at their table
Nor is it the Emperor's eyes and ears - for that the Emperor has the IISS "special branch", INI, IAI, every sector duke wanting to keep their status above the subsector dukes.
The Moot is not a parliament, senate, congress, it is a shareholder meeting for Cleon Industries.
The much vaunted right of assassination was superseded by the open rebellion of fleet admirals and the civil war, look how the right of assassination claimed by Dulinor was enforced. If you can enforce your claim to the throne after assassinating the emperor then the Moot will nod along, if you can't there will be no assassination in the first place. Dulinor expected the Moot to follow the right of assassination protocol, they didn;t because other forces within the Imperial family were stronger, i.e. Lucan's claim to the throne.
Note that the Moot tried to make itself more important following Strephon's assassination - compare the mentions of the Moot In CT Library Data with MT (not MgT) Library Data. They were dissolved within the year and never re-instated. The Emperor is the monarch absolute, it is best the Moot remembers that fact.
But it is Mongooses to retcon as they see fit, if they want to grant the Moot some sort of parliamentary, senate, congress status then so be it, but the nature of the Imperium changes.
And it is up to the individual referee how they want it to work at their table
You could claim that the early 16th century English parliament had, in simplified terms, only the powers of granting financial subsidies, duties and taxation to the crown, impeaching crown officers and proposing legislation.
And yet they brought down, then executed, a King who took that literally.
Jarac Rassen
Mongoose
I'm still new to Traveller and don't dispute your knowledge. And as you said, IYTU can be different from mine. I'm just going off what I've been reading in the Third Imperium book. The Emperor is indeed absolute, and the Moot is an advisory body. But Emperor's who ignore, or worse, start executing members of that advisory body tended to be found with a knife in their backs.It has no advisory powers, the Moot has no function within the Imperial government, Lucan suspended it with a wave of his hand for example.
Nor is it the Emperor's eyes and ears - for that the Emperor has the IISS "special branch", INI, IAI, every sector duke wanting to keep their status above the subsector dukes.
The Moot is not a parliament, senate, congress, it is a shareholder meeting for Cleon Industries.
The much vaunted right of assassination was superseded by the open rebellion of fleet admirals and the civil war, look how the right of assassination claimed by Dulinor was enforced. If you can enforce your claim to the throne after assassinating the emperor then the Moot will nod along, if you can't there will be no assassination in the first place. Dulinor expected the Moot to follow the right of assassination protocol, they didn;t because other forces within the Imperial family were stronger, i.e. Lucan's claim to the throne.
Note that the Moot tried to make itself more important following Strephon's assassination - compare the mentions of the Moot In CT Library Data with MT (not MgT) Library Data. They were dissolved within the year and never re-instated. The Emperor is the monarch absolute, it is best the Moot remembers that fact.
But it is Mongooses to retcon as they see fit, if they want to grant the Moot some sort of parliamentary, senate, congress status then so be it, but the nature of the Imperium changes.
And it is up to the individual referee how they want it to work at their table
This is how I interpreted things as well. What's on paper and what has been established precedent over the centuries seems to differ. Emperors have rejected the Moot's advice, as is their right as absolute monarch. But the ones who last at least hear them out.
Again, that's how I interpreted it.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
And all it took was a civil war that killed more englishman per capita than any war before or since.
Text tends to lose nuance but that seems like sarcasm. If so, you'd maybe be confusing the order of events. Charles ignored the will of Parliament then there was the war and execution as a result. That's why I said "And yet they brought down, then executed, a King who took that literally." The bringing down element was the war.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
No sarcasm was intended, I just thought the "and yet they brought down" is a touch sarcastic in itself since it doesn't carry the weight of the actual events. But as you say forum conversations are tricky, I bet we would agree on most of this face to face.
It is worth pointing out that english kings, unlike Imperium Emperors, were not absolute monarchs; from the moment John was forced into signing the treaty by the barons the king's authority was curtailed on certain matters, especially, over time, taxation.
By Charles' reign the english parliament had a lot more authority than the Imperial Moot.
Charles, like his father, believed in the divine right of kings, something that english monarchs had removed centuries before with magna carta (although many a king would play fast and loose with its terms) which Edward I had made english statute law.
Charles also married a catholic.
Finally although parliament was called at the king's whim it did have the power of taxation, which Charles needed.
Charles refused to call a parliament for 11 years, ran up huge bills and so had to summon parliament, who would insist on reforms. he also tried to rais money with some very dubious new money raising schemes, which were challenged legally.
This is another thing that differentiates an Imperial Emperor, there is no court of law to challenge his authority.
Eventually it all kicked off in '42 and the campaigns continued until parliamentary victory in '46.
Despite his defeat Charles continued his refusal of certain parliamentary demands and so the war was renewed for a time in '48. He would lose again and be executed in '49, becoming the only recognised saint of the Anglican church.
So very different to anything that ever happened in the Imperium. The Moot has never had advisory powers or taxation powers, nor can the Moot restrict the emperor's authority, except by dissolving the Imperium, which the emperor would declare an act of treason and have the Moot disbanded and hunted down,
It is worth pointing out that english kings, unlike Imperium Emperors, were not absolute monarchs; from the moment John was forced into signing the treaty by the barons the king's authority was curtailed on certain matters, especially, over time, taxation.
By Charles' reign the english parliament had a lot more authority than the Imperial Moot.
Charles, like his father, believed in the divine right of kings, something that english monarchs had removed centuries before with magna carta (although many a king would play fast and loose with its terms) which Edward I had made english statute law.
Charles also married a catholic.
Finally although parliament was called at the king's whim it did have the power of taxation, which Charles needed.
Charles refused to call a parliament for 11 years, ran up huge bills and so had to summon parliament, who would insist on reforms. he also tried to rais money with some very dubious new money raising schemes, which were challenged legally.
This is another thing that differentiates an Imperial Emperor, there is no court of law to challenge his authority.
Eventually it all kicked off in '42 and the campaigns continued until parliamentary victory in '46.
Despite his defeat Charles continued his refusal of certain parliamentary demands and so the war was renewed for a time in '48. He would lose again and be executed in '49, becoming the only recognised saint of the Anglican church.
So very different to anything that ever happened in the Imperium. The Moot has never had advisory powers or taxation powers, nor can the Moot restrict the emperor's authority, except by dissolving the Imperium, which the emperor would declare an act of treason and have the Moot disbanded and hunted down,
Jarac Rassen
Mongoose
Found that part of the book. While by law the Emperor is pretty much absolute, he does listen to the Moot and takes them seriously.
The Thirds Imperium pg. 47
The Thirds Imperium pg. 47
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I am afraid that is one of the issues with the Mongoose take on things.
The Emperor can revoke any noble's title at any time, the noble family ceases to be nobility.
It also grants the Moot nobles an omniscience they simply can not have. They are many months if not years away from events in distant sectors, and the Emperor has access to a jump 6 network for communications that the nobility lack. I don't doubt that the Emperor takes advice from nobles, but those nobles will be the ones in receipt of intelligence from the various intelligence agencies and will have the Emperor's confidence, they are not the Moot.
Not sure where this Chancellor comes from either, looks like it was made up just for this book.
The Emperor can revoke any noble's title at any time, the noble family ceases to be nobility.
It also grants the Moot nobles an omniscience they simply can not have. They are many months if not years away from events in distant sectors, and the Emperor has access to a jump 6 network for communications that the nobility lack. I don't doubt that the Emperor takes advice from nobles, but those nobles will be the ones in receipt of intelligence from the various intelligence agencies and will have the Emperor's confidence, they are not the Moot.
Not sure where this Chancellor comes from either, looks like it was made up just for this book.
ResslynHalvik
Cosmic Mongoose
I realise I may regret asking ... so, Sigtrygg, what's the definitive source you are using for this, and why does it trump Mongoose's words?
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Classic Traveller Library data.
The Moot doesn't even get mentioned apart from some throwaway comments in the Emperor's List about emperors appointed "by right of moot election"
The shareholders pick a new CEO in other words.
MegaTraveller Library data.
The Moot now gets a Library Data entry, probably because the powers that be at GDW and DGP wanted to add another faction at court. But since Imperial Library Data is propaganda it is likely the Moot now gets a mention because the Moot members want to inflate their own importance... until Lucan disbands the Moot.
GURPS Traveller Nobles.
Take with a big pinch of salt since GT authors made their own fanon into canon.
The Moot doesn't even get mentioned apart from some throwaway comments in the Emperor's List about emperors appointed "by right of moot election"
The shareholders pick a new CEO in other words.
MegaTraveller Library data.
The Moot now gets a Library Data entry, probably because the powers that be at GDW and DGP wanted to add another faction at court. But since Imperial Library Data is propaganda it is likely the Moot now gets a mention because the Moot members want to inflate their own importance... until Lucan disbands the Moot.
GURPS Traveller Nobles.
Take with a big pinch of salt since GT authors made their own fanon into canon.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Now you’ve gone and done it. He’ll haul out his steamer trunk full of every single version of Traveller ever made to show you sixty-six citations on that.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I wasn’t far off.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
No, that's the thing. I have most of this memorised, and the rest is easy to find thanks to searchable pdfs.Now you’ve gone and done it. He’ll haul out his steamer trunk full of every single version of Traveller ever made to show you sixty-six citations on that.
Which is why I can not understand why Mongoose authors do not have similar knowledge or library resources...
by the way the Moot is mentioned 3 times in CT Library data, and 110 times in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia...
Jarac Rassen
Mongoose
That's why I'm glad for the change. I think an absolute Emperor with unlimited power and no checks can make for a boring affair. The Moot not having official power, but defacto power is like a dance.
Sure, the Emperor is all-powerful. But there are noble families in the Imperium older than his. And like the Imperium, he has to know when to use his unlimited power, and when to show restraint.
Which is probably why the Alkhalikoi line has lasted for so long; they found that "balance."
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I would say it is because they became so weak and were so easily manipulated that they have lasted so long. Strephon's suicidal empathy wrote his own death warrant.
But all of that is now a future history that the current setting no longer supports.
Those old, rich, powerful noble families likely spend as much time and effort trying to one up their peers as they do trying to influence the Emperor.
A powerful Emperor would be well aware of the machinations and play noble families off against each other, which is what I see sector dukes doing to subsector dukes in order to maintain their status.
The years from the end of the FFW to the assassination offer so much scope for a politicking game...
But all of that is now a future history that the current setting no longer supports.
Those old, rich, powerful noble families likely spend as much time and effort trying to one up their peers as they do trying to influence the Emperor.
A powerful Emperor would be well aware of the machinations and play noble families off against each other, which is what I see sector dukes doing to subsector dukes in order to maintain their status.
The years from the end of the FFW to the assassination offer so much scope for a politicking game...
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