Should the MI use tanks

[cOwgummi]

No one said the Germans were talking about their own people. In the case of the Russians I'm certain they were happy to get any casualties with them.

*lol*
Well you just kinda stop caring for your troops if you have too many of them, you know? :wink:

Anyway, I digress. There's different tactical advantages and disadvantages to what we were talking about, and it depends mostly on the mission parameters to determine which is better at any given time.

the only real benefit I could see for taking Tanks or IFVs/APCs for the job of taking out AA is that you're faster than you are on foot...but ithat is one relatively small benefit thats not enough to validate the usage of tanks by itself

 

[Hiromoon]

You're just not thinking laterally enough then.

Come on, you're from the country that pioneered the use of Tanks as a viable combat weapon and not merely infantry support.

 

[cOwgummi]

You're just not thinking laterally enough then.

what do you mean?

Come on, you're from the country that pioneered the use of Tanks as a viable combat weapon and not merely infantry support.

Yeah...so?

"We" weren't fighting no bugs :wink:

 

[SickBunny]

Heehee... this just keeps on ticking... brillliant...

I still will hold to my guns on no tanks for MI on the basic principle of human psychology, and even more so the psychology of the Federation... especially if we allow a mix of sources as I do liberally in my head. To me Federation is hellbent on proving how damn superior man is in comparison to other species out there. And they will do so by stubbornly clinging to their potentially outdated concepts of warfare.

Simply because to yield that their present manner of warfare is untenable and often ill-advised is to admit that every alien race out there can potentially destroy mankind... and the moment the Federation begins reacting to enemy threats instead of acting aggressively and pre-emptively is when the Federation has lost their pr-war...

Hearts and minds, people... Federation -is- more than MI... but during this time, the war of the species, MI is the shining bright light of the Federations propaganda machine... and they are Mobile Infantry, not 'cry in your foxhole and wait to die' infantry... They are the best of the best, the most aggressive military ever conceived. They are designed solely for attack and overwhelming the enemy with sheer speed, ferocity and excessive application of firepower and tactical and strategic rapid redeployment... thanks just do not fit this in any manner or form...

To me its more than the image of the world or how much sense it would make. Its all about how Federation wishes to show its people its military.

Damnit...

So there...

 

[Hiromoon]

Psst, Sickbunny, they already yielded that the course of action they were taking was flawed. Why do you think 'We can ill afford another Klendathu' was mentioned?

 

[SickBunny]

:lol:

Thats because the Federation tried out something new... namely being slow, wieldy Invasion Companies that required to outside sources (navy) for rapid tactical redeployment...

And no, PAMI or EXO's would not have faired any better... and well... as PR catastrophies go, you cant quite cover up Klendathu... but even then, in the aftermath if you read all the books, including Klendathu sourcebook, you see that there was no true rethinking of the manner mankind makes war. Its still smash and grab or just plain smash by a surgical strike... but now they are trying to be smarter with the targets... Because they know what they can and cannot do... I never claimed humans/Federation stupid... but the modern warfare of powersuit/nuclear weapons employment does not have a slot in its existing system for tanks and other such unwieldy heavy equipment.

It is the same as telling the US Army how they need to insert these nifty guys in their shining armour, riding their heavy, barded destriers into battle with banners and flags flailing from their lancetips into their existing structure... it is the same concept... even if there -is- some tiny, miniscule room for armed, trained personnel on horseback even in modern day, they are not the absolute terrorweapon they used to be... and only useful in extremely limited fashion (crowdcontrol) and surely not employed by the peak military organization... right?

Tanks to MI are guys riding horses to modern military... they likely have their uses but have no place in the modern warfare in their thinking...

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

It'll be interesting to see what MGP's new take on the post-Klendathu tactical landscape is. After all, the original novel is set after big K and the strategy there is lots of raids conducted by platoons.

And when you think back to the novel, it does kinda instruct on how the MI would take out an enemy position deep behind lines - they'd drop a platoon of exos on it

 

[Makoto]

*coughs and tries his best German accent* Zee acceptable casualties of course, mien herr.

Umm... Actually that's an american way of fighting - for best comparision compare scale of operations and number of casualties during WW2 ;p

 

[Hiromoon]

It'll be interesting to see what MGP's new take on the post-Klendathu tactical landscape is. After all, the original novel is set after big K and the strategy there is lots of raids conducted by platoons.

And when you think back to the novel, it does kinda instruct on how the MI would take out an enemy position deep behind lines - they'd drop a platoon of exos on it

Actually they have it with the 'Road to Victory' campaign with planet hopping. They land on a bug controlled planet and after pacification they drop LAMI if the environment's hospitable enough.

... but the modern warfare of powersuit/nuclear weapons employment does not have a slot in its existing system for tanks and other such unwieldy heavy equipment.

Doesn't explain the existence of IFVs though, which the Federation does have... in abundant numbers apparently.

Umm... Actually that's an American way of fighting - for best comparison compare scale of operations and number of casualties during WW2 ;p

Well, we did bear the worst of the fighting during the latter stages of the Pacific Campaign. Taking fortified beaches against a foe that knows the terrain isn't easy.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

It'll be interesting to see what MGP's new take on the post-Klendathu tactical landscape is. After all, the original novel is set after big K and the strategy there is lots of raids conducted by platoons.

And when you think back to the novel, it does kinda instruct on how the MI would take out an enemy position deep behind lines - they'd drop a platoon of exos on it

Actually they have it with the 'Road to Victory' campaign with planet hopping. They land on a bug controlled planet and after pacification they drop LAMI if the environment's hospitable enough.

Umm... Actually that's an American way of fighting - for best comparison compare scale of operations and number of casualties during WW2 ;p

Well, we did bear the worst of the fighting during the latter stages of the Pacific Campaign. Taking fortified beaches against a foe that knows the terrain isn't easy.

It's interesting that you also mention the Pacific campaign, because Road to Victory really reminded me of it. I just wasn't sure if it's going to be retained in the new book or not. Also, I can't remember if Road to Victory kicked off before or after the Big K.

 

[cOwgummi]

And no, PAMI or EXO's would not have faired any better...

uuuuuhm...dude? according to the arachnid empire sourcebook they acutally faired a lot better...





and the road to victory, of cause, was the campaign leading to big K...

 

[Makoto]

Taking fortified beaches against a foe that knows the terrain isn't easy.

Oh, I meant chasing an already routed enemy on the third front (western Europe), not assaulting prepared defensive positions

And isn't the "new approach" (post-Klendathu one) almost literally based on the Pacific? With the scale in mind, that is. And with no real perspective for naval engagements so far.

 

[Ben2]

While the knight analogy is valid compared to MBTs, look at how many cavalry or mounted infantry divisions were active in WWII. They didn't do much in the way of cavalry charges, but mounted infantry could move a lot faster and didn't need petrol. And as a last resort, well, you can't eat a tank.

Bear in mind even today horses are being used in brushfire wars across the globe, and by both sides in Afghanistan to transport troops around and move quickly around the place.

IFV/APCs have a practical application as low cost transport that is not vulnerable to AA fire or the vagaries of weather.

 

[Hiromoon]

Edit: Well, checking the Klendathu book helps....bleh.

 

[Paladin]

The debate that keeps on going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going... and going...

 

[cOwgummi]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think you just killed me

 

[SickBunny]

While the knight analogy is valid compared to MBTs, look at how many cavalry or mounted infantry divisions were active in WWII. They didn't do much in the way of cavalry charges, but mounted infantry could move a lot faster and didn't need petrol. And as a last resort, well, you can't eat a tank.

Bear in mind even today horses are being used in brushfire wars across the globe, and by both sides in Afghanistan to transport troops around and move quickly around the place.

IFV/APCs have a practical application as low cost transport that is not vulnerable to AA fire or the vagaries of weather.

Like I said, cavalry does have its uses even today, but not when two highly developed militaries have at each other... I have no problem whatsoever in seeing tanks and armoured vehicles in use in Colonial forces and potentially even with LAMI as they are sorta gently ushering them away from the truly Mobile Infantry.. but powerarmoured truly MI and tanks... dont see them ever mixing... and dont want to see that either... they are completely against the MI's point of immensely fast deployment, the application of truly excessive firepower to a contained target area and then leaving before the enemy can mount an effective retaliation... Tank just doesnt do that... unless it is Bolo or Ogre... :lol: and that makes MI pointless in turn... you can have one or the other in a singular army...

 

[Wolfsbane]

first the CHAS, then comes the Bolo !

 

[chris_valera]

I'm down for the tanks, if only because those who want a more "military" Mobile Infantry force can make use of them, while those who want a more fluff-correct force can leave them out.

Also remember, not every warzone is are the flat relatively featureless no man's land we've been shown, and not every enemy is the bugs. In an urban enviroment, the MI would be forced to either hoof it everywhere (slow) or jump over every building, which would quickly burn all their jump fuel.

At that point a light APC starts looking pretty good, and cost-efficient.

I say make them, for no other reason than the fact they are in the RPG, which means modellers are forced to make their own.

--Chris
http://www.chrisvalera.com

 

[Gauntlet-]

there is a big difference between APC and main battle tank.

I don't think anyone has a serious grudge against an APC such as the one shown in the show. I think the issue is entirely with the concept of a MBT.

Also, in an Urban environment it will be easy to road block or otherwise mine the crucial junctures where tanks and apcs would have to go through... whereas infantry could go around, step in between or otherwise bypass. Which an APC will allow for, as it has both the road speed, armor etc... and the infantry to clear such road blocks.

The main battle tank won't.