Should maned small combat crafts be deleted from chartered space?

Should maned small combat crafts be deleted from chartered space?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 24 100.0%

  • Total voters
    24
Another aspect is the development of the sophont.

If we allow that fighter pilots survive more in line with the character generation probabilities indicate and there is no "meat grinder" philosophy we can dispense with the moral side and it becomes a purely economic argument.

In this case fighter pilots are not as one dimensional as the cheaper droids are as they have a useful function on the ship beyond that single use case where they can be frozen. The character generation model provides us with multi-skilled individuals that can perform other duties when they are not out of the ship flying that presumably higher survivability fighter (possibly as missile launch platforms for spamming missile defence systems) for which you don't even need a gunner skill. You need to pay the higher life support costs of Cr1500 per month since they are now permanently active. This brings their cost to around KCr100 for the first term covering the training cost, the average cash benefit roll and the cost of life support

This is a far more complex use case. You can credibly argue either way, especially as experienced pilots can be fed back into society to provide other benefits whereas the robot is generally limited. The Naval career is one of the better ways to improve your social standing, and the Flight branch is the easiest route to promotion within the Navy career. Choosing to be a fighter pilot may be no more than a way to improve your standing. Entry into the Navy isn't particularly difficult. It is one of the few careers that enable you to improve all of the characteristics on the Personal Development table. Even a SOC 1 individual has a 1 in 6 chance of being commissioned and if they stay the course in the flight branch it is not unlikely they will reach at least Captain by mandatory retirement age and immediately become SOC 10 with a pretty good chance of making Baron (either by making Admiral or with one of the many benefits rolls giving the SOC+2). That would be a pretty good reason to be a sophont fighter pilot and presumably the Navy wants that too or the mechanism would not have evolved that way.

Now if we consider the droid idea any droid needs to have the same skills to make them equivalent (increasing cost). As the sophont continues to serve they increase in skill levels at at least 1 per term but a fighter pilot will probably be promoted each term and get the extra skill for that as well. (plus they get any event generated extra skills, contacts and allies etc.). Their ongoing cost to the navy does not increase significantly. At some point they will qualify for a single stateroom and life support goes up to Cr2000 per month. Over the course of their career they will get extra benefit rolls but that is capped at 3 for cash so it levels out quite quickly. To replace them with droids means the droids need to have those extra skills and life experiences as well. This means the brains need to be able to learn. Once they have learned they will be too valuable to throw away as disposable fighter pilots.

An entirely average five term fighter pilot has a very good chance of being promoted every term and ending up as a SOC 10+ individual with 11 skill levels above their basic training and background skills. They have a good chance of gaining several additional skill levels or extra benefits from events. They will have 5+non-cash benefits that are as likely to be stat improvements as "things". They have cost the Navy around half a MCr in this time on life support, benefits etc. The return on this investment is a potential planetary Governor with considerable clout and likely their allies and contacts will be similarly "useful" people and so you have the basis of a planetary government.

A droid costing MCr0.5 whilst highly capable wont have as many skills, and none of the contacts.

So even if droids were cheaper alternatives for disposable fighters the sophont in that role is the feedstock for government.
 
Ok, so I’ll grant you that there are a couple of races (Tezcats, I’m looking at you) who might well view intelligent life from their own species as borderline-disposable in the right situation. And if a species is not based on Dawkins’ memetic replication of competitive, personal code then that might be easier to imagine.

But among humans as technology and lifespan increase and belief in salvation and eternal afterlife falls to the levels in Chartered Space? Hardly. That’s not the Imperium nor Zhodani space we see described; it’s absolutely not Vargr; and for most Aslan clans it’s also the sort of stretch that requires you to pretend to believe that All Japanese Were Kamikazes.
Not all Japanese were Kamikaze. Some of them were. Not all fighter pilots will die in Cherry Blossoms under the setting logic (i.e. the careers model). We can assume the huge attrition assumed in a disposable fighter logic is an artifact of the way people choose to play the game rather than any setting assumption.

What proportion of those complete societies will become fighter pilots? I would imagine a vanishingly small percentage. It won't even make a ripple on the tranquil surface of the benign society when a few brave souls make the ultimate sacrifice (willingly or otherwise) for the greater good.
 
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Humans can be ideologically indoctrinated, at the micro and macro levels, to believe and behave in any number of ways.

Since we're discussing pilots, I'll reiterate it depends on how many you need for a given time period, and then point out how large the manpower pool is, especially for the Imperium.
 
Humans can be ideologically indoctrinated, at the micro and macro levels, to believe and behave in any number of ways.

Since we're discussing pilots, I'll reiterate it depends on how many you need for a given time period, and then point out how large the manpower pool is, especially for the Imperium.
And how low the bar is for a potentially short career in the Navy.
 
Reading through this discusion I am reminded of a certain meme....

Sir, this is a Wendys!

To paraphrase...

Folks, this is Traveller!

Traveller is a game of Sophonts - Humans, Aslan, Vargr and others - travelling Chartered Space having adventures.

It isn't about a future of AI and robots doing everything while sophonts sit quitely in the corner.

Most of the great sci fi novels that inspired Traveller had machines that became intelligent turning on their creators. Even Mary Shelley's Frankstein turns on its creator. It's one of the Fermi Paradox great filters after all.

And that is before you get to the moral and political issue of at what point do machines and AI become intelligent enough to qualify as sophonts?

And if you don't answer that do you wind up fighting your own robots and AI.

You have sophont fighter pilots because the Traveller setting has sophont fighter pilots. Now how they are used comes down to the writer of the books and the Referee. Realistically few commanders are going to throw all their fighters into a battle where they'll be destroyed while achieving little. But fighters are equally good in defense and can deploy E-warfare and counter messures and shoot down missiles and torpedos while the big ships fight it out.

They can also patrol and scout and a group of fighters is deadly to civilian starships.
 
Back in old versions before small craft weapons got nerfed, my players kept a few small fighters as CAP, with the ability to threaten enemies who didn't fire missiles. Basically, extra triple turrets (since any small craft could mount three fixed weapons).
 
Reading through this discusion I am reminded of a certain meme....

Sir, this is a Wendys!

To paraphrase...

Folks, this is Traveller!

Traveller is a game of Sophonts - Humans, Aslan, Vargr and others - travelling Chartered Space having adventures.

It isn't about a future of AI and robots doing everything while sophonts sit quitely in the corner.

Most of the great sci fi novels that inspired Traveller had machines that became intelligent turning on their creators. Even Mary Shelley's Frankstein turns on its creator. It's one of the Fermi Paradox great filters after all.

And that is before you get to the moral and political issue of at what point do machines and AI become intelligent enough to qualify as sophonts?

And if you don't answer that do you wind up fighting your own robots and AI.

You have sophont fighter pilots because the Traveller setting has sophont fighter pilots. Now how they are used comes down to the writer of the books and the Referee. Realistically few commanders are going to throw all their fighters into a battle where they'll be destroyed while achieving little. But fighters are equally good in defense and can deploy E-warfare and counter messures and shoot down missiles and torpedos while the big ships fight it out.

They can also patrol and scout and a group of fighters is deadly to civilian starships.
Then Mongoose should have stayed well away from cybernetics, robots, augmentaion, expert programs etc.

Original Traveller didn't have these things, Mongoose Traveller does, and Matt says if it is in a MgT book then it can be in their Charted Space setting. Which means said technolofies would be embraced by the polities and the setting changed as a result. You can't have it both ways.

The toys exist but the big boys don't use them because the Emperor commands it...
 
I think the role of the beam laser fighter is mainly to defensively shoot down incoming missiles and torpedoes. The capital ships won't bother targeting these fighters as they present no threat (and are probably quite hard to hit).

A small craft armed with a fixed missile launcher or two can fire at a medium range capital ship as easily as the bigger ships can. One or two missiles can easily be dealt with by ECM or point defence, but each small craft launch is a separate salvo. If 100 small ships all fired a missile each that is 100 salvos to defeat rather than a salvo of 100 missiles. It doesn't even need to be particularly agile as it is just a deployed weapon platform, it can use all it's thrust to dodge any stray shots coming its way.

A single missile hit might not be devastating to a 1000 DTon warship, but it will wear it down. Only one has to get lucky and every 10% of hits cumulatively lost constitutes another critical.

Neither of these roles requires the suicidal close range attacks that is the Star Wars view of space combat. You might possibly send your beam laser fighter wings out to destroy the enemies missile fighters in order to defeat that threat. You might find the enemy sends up their own beam laser fighters to defend their missile fighters etc.
 
Does anyone actually play a currently serving fighter pilot? If not then all this is a bit moot. Your players don't even have to know what they did in the service, they can just make up war stories no-one will really care whether they remotely piloted a flying bomb or sat two up in a space superiority fighter.

"Oh Odin, Sven is off again about the time he "took on the Colonial fleet" at Bowman... someone buy him a drink to shut him up!"
 
Not all Japanese were Kamikaze. Some of them were. Not all fighter pilots will die in Cherry Blossoms under the setting logic (i.e. the careers model). We can assume the huge attrition assumed in a disposable fighter logic is an artifact of the way people choose to play the game rather than any setting assumption.

What proportion of those complete societies will become fighter pilots? I would imagine a vanishingly small percentage. It won't even make a ripple on the tranquil surface of the benign society when a few brave souls make the ultimate sacrifice (willingly or otherwise) for the greater good.
Yes, my exact point was that some Japanese became Kamikazes, as a result of a very specific culture that died out within eighteen months. Nowadays we already use automated systems: ffs the Germans already had replaced that role in war with Fritz and Schmetterling systems by 1943/4! Why would the Imperium or Zhodani decide that humans can do better and are worth sacrificing to do so, or that humans life is cheaper than automation!?

But trying to base the military doctrine of sophisticated, high-technology societies containing trillions of sophonts on the need to recruit huge numbers (have you seen the carrier forces in the Inperial Navy book alone?!?) of suicide bombers is absolutely laughable. Bonkers. Not plausible except in the extreme example of someone who has argued themselves into the most ridiculous corner!
 
Yeah, I'm good with that. So it comes down to the hardware cost vs the cost to train up some guy. If, for simplicity's sake, it's Cr500,000 for the former (I'm using the cost of a Very Advanced bot brain), you now have a value to judge that on. If it takes two years of Far Future training to get a character up to speed (which seems reasonable and in line with the post-career experience rules), your budget is about Cr250,000 per annum. I'm pretty sure you could deliver a competent pilot for less than that. But your Naval pilot of two years' experience is not just a Pilot-1 or Pilot-2. They can do other jobs. They can do them on ships that aren't carriers. They can be trained up into roles that have nothing to do with combat piloting but benefit from a background in it, like command.
If you're willing to bother with implants you could cut the training time down but I'd have to do the math on if that ended up being efficient cost wise compared to just building a robot.
 
Yes, my exact point was that some Japanese became Kamikazes, as a result of a very specific culture that died out within eighteen months. Nowadays we already use automated systems: ffs the Germans already had replaced that role in war with Fritz and Schmetterling systems by 1943/4! Why would the Imperium or Zhodani decide that humans can do better and are worth sacrificing to do so, or that humans life is cheaper than automation!?

But trying to base the military doctrine of sophisticated, high-technology societies containing trillions of sophonts on the need to recruit huge numbers (have you seen the carrier forces in the Inperial Navy book alone?!?) of suicide bombers is absolutely laughable. Bonkers. Not plausible except in the extreme example of someone who has argued themselves into the most ridiculous corner!
I only came over to the suicide fighter corner because you were already there :)

"Probably most importantly, the robot has no qualms about being launched in a vehicle that will explode with a single hit against a target bristling with highly-accurate, fast-tracking beam lasers that will probably take out half the flight before they score a hit."

I don't think fighters would be used like that by choice. There might be the occasional unavoidable incident but fighters are better off engaging incoming torpedoes and missiles. The life of a Navy fighter pilot is relatively safe according to the MGT2 career outcomes.

On that basis I don't think there will be any problem recruiting sophonts as fighter pilots.

If you decide that the majority of fighters are destroyed every sortie then there is no point expending a fortune on sophisticated robots and frankly you might as well send them out as torpedo riders. Use a basic brain if you want but a flesh-bag will be better for the same start-up cost. Humans heal naturally, robots have to be repaired. Once you accept that flawed paradigm then anything else is on the table.

The question was should fighter pilots be replaced with robots. My answer is no.

Sophonts will learn from experience and can train the next batch and then go on to even more useful lives. The robot will stagnate at whatever level your programming got to before you decide to field this batch. Once your opponents capture a robot and hack it, they will know the decision tree for every robot from that batch. Sophonts do the right thing by accident, Robots do the right thing because they are programmed that way, but that makes them more predictable.

But I do believe there is a place for plucky chaps with the odds wholly against them just digging in and getting on with it either for a "Rag on a stick", because they smashed Jocks last bottle of Glen Osprey, because "Ginger was me mate!" or because they "play up". Jingoism is bound to be alive and well in some system in charted space and the lower the TL of the system the more meat centric the military component of that jingoism is going to have to be.
 
The Germans were considering sending up pilots guiding buzz bombs, but I believe there was a lack of volunteers.

Simplifying the problem would be a stated requirement for pilots per sector fleet, per quarter.

You could limit frontline service during wartime to eighteen months, or fifty combat missions.
 
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