Should maned small combat crafts be deleted from chartered space?

Should maned small combat crafts be deleted from chartered space?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • No

    Votes: 11 91.7%

  • Total voters
    12

Perkanis83

Banded Mongoose
Yup asking that question should we just pull the trigger and come to the realization that manned small combat crafts really make no sense and should just be deleted from the setting as drones are better cheaper and safer and do the same work as maned crafts.
 
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Because of the bad experiences the Imperium had with autonomous brains, there's a lot of distrust of craft larger than missiles and torpedoes with a mind of their own. I'm not saying it's a good explanation, but it is a cultural flavor you can leverage.
 
No. Not entirely.

Despite the old CT Trillion Credit Squadron's imposed limit on Pilot numbers (which was put in to deal with excessive amounts of smaller ships and fighters, in a tournament context...), meathead pilots are cheaper and more available than bot ones, even allowing for life support.

At least they are at lower tech levels. TL12 is the earliest bot brains smart enough to be competent at dealing with evolving combat situations, and Very Advanced brains come in at Cr500,000.

Obviously close in support fighters can be drones directed by the ship. I think that stops being a person job by TL10. But if you're dispatching a squadron to deal with an object several light seconds away, you'll need on the spot command. So maybe not a full squadron of breather pilots anymore; I would expect 2-3 with numerous drones each. By TL12 you'll start to see the meat pilots replaced with bot ones... unless that's obnoxious to the Navy or worrying to the public. Potentially they may be used, but something not really talked about.
 
Dual seat fighters could easily be reduced to single seat with a built in robot-brain. It would be less onerous since it is still directed by a sophont in the craft.

It depends if the ship is a regular fighter with a droid crew (virtual crew is way too expensive), or the whole thing is a robot. I am not sure the RH, HG and the new VH are necessarily aligned and space-going drones cost may not be consistent.

Assuming an HG fighter craft it also depends on the craft itself. For an asteroid hull* the cost of the cockpit is less that KCr20 once you take into account the extra hull, drive etc. The cost allocated to crew will be a small fraction of the cost allocated for weaponry, so going cheap might not be logical.

There are no life support costs for a cockpit. If the pilot is ship based then there will be a life support cost but with frozen watch or a planetary defence fighter the life support cost could be very low. Wages may or may not be a cost (you may not even pay your crews a salary - service guarantees citizenship).

A navy pilot with basic training gets 6 level 0 skills. Pilot and Gunner are directly applicable. With decent DEX these could be operating at competent professional Level 1 or 2 even for a flight school washout. A Navy Academy graduate pilot could be operating at Level 3 in the important skills before they even enter the service.

For a droid, in order to get level 1 in those skills you are paying KCr's at level 1, KCr10's at level 2 and KCr100's at level 3. To run skills at that level is going to need a brain costing KCr10's. Basic brains need to be directed fairly closely and you would need at least 2 to cover just the basic skills needed. That means you are looking at Advanced brains and as pointed out at lower tech levels those are really expensive.

The sophont pilot comes with other skills that are potentially less useful, but could still be important, Electronics from background skills for sensors for example, that would need more software "just in case" or risk not having skills when needed. The sophont can be enhanced to DM+1 with cheap expert packages. The sophont can also go beyond their "fly plane, shoot guns" role definition making them more flexible. For a droid to have that flexibility requires more software, bandwidth etc. A sophont pilot can attempt any skill difficulty, but software is limited in the complexity that it can even attempt.

I like cheapo droids (basic brains) as opponents as I can run them with a simple flow chart and not have to overthink the situation. I also have indentured servicemen in my evil empire that are cheaper to replace than the ship itself (building a droid needs facilities, knowledge and money, making a person just needs two idiots with raging hormones and a bottle of Buckfast). Training pilots is not much of a cost when you are operating at that sort of mentality, it is also a way of controlling the more aggressive members of society. I also use convict soldiers and dirt cheap clones**.

*Given the extra armour that gives you it is not a bad starting point if you are looking to save cost. A thrust 6 dual seater will cost less than MCr2 with half that cost being the weapon system.

** Evil empires can built clones at the cost price of KCr10 per clone. Once you have paid for the template you can churn out identical clones with STR, DEX, END and INT stats in the 9+D3 level at the same price point. In 18 months, without any extra for education they can have 2 skills at level 1. Statistically 1 in 3 is DEX 12 making Pilot and Gunner checks at DM+2. They are fully indoctrinated, utterly loyal and by the time they have worked out they are being used, they are wearing out. A few high risk missions generally eliminates the ones starting to go "off-piste".
 
1. Identify how many fighter pilots you need per quarter.

2. Calculate likely attrition rate.

3. Recruit farmbois from agricultural regions.

4. Ensure that they have background skills of pilot/smallcraft, electronics, and athletics.

5. Teach them etiquette/military, and gunner.

6. Which is what, a ninety day course?

7. Profit.


iu
 
I can see the reason to have a manned smallcraft in oversight of the drones/robots.

You also need to keep crewed smallcraft to give player characters something to do.
 
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Yup asking that question should we just pull the trigger and come to the realization that manned small combat crafts really make no sense and should just be deleted from the setting as drones are better cheaper and safer and do the same work as maned crafts.
Can you provide an example of the type of drone you are considering here. There are plenty of drones in the RH, but I can't see a space superiority one. It would be easier to do a side by side comparison with an actual example.
 
Given the state of fighters in the High Guard rules, and the cheapness and effectiveness of unmanned fighters using HG itself, I use unmanned fighters IMTU once worlds are beyond the first few TLs of spaceflight. Manned fighters are just death traps.
 
Given the state of fighters in the High Guard rules, and the cheapness and effectiveness of unmanned fighters using HG itself, I use unmanned fighters IMTU once worlds are beyond the first few TLs of spaceflight. Manned fighters are just death traps.
What are you using to get unmanned fighters using HG? The only option I could see there was Virtual Crew. At MCr1 this is way too expensive to make a fighter cheap.

If the fighters are so feeble they need to be considered disposable, adding in MCr1 of software (which I believe cannot be copied in Traveller) is a non-starter. A droid might get you there (or a vehicle brain) at the KCr level.

I suppose it depends on the value put on sophont life, and that is a setting call.
 
If things go the way they are headed IRL, human pilots make no sense anymore. But neither do gunners, astrogators, soldiers, broom pushers, or (insert profession here).

Unless you want to play Neptune's Brood, which is totally viable and could be a (different) RPG, you've go to nerf AI seriously. (Instead of career paths, we could just build our characters using the Robot Handbook).

It's not realistic, but I assume a combination of issues (dangers) with controlling sentient robots, slower than realistic AI development, and cost, limit its deployment enough that we get to keep our fighter pilots. This is because I want to have fighter pilots in my game, not because I think there will actually be fighter pilots. On the other hand, I have story lines driven by robots with agency - while these show the potential of AI, they also show why it isn't universally used.
 
I toyed with the idea of actual robot humanoid crew members - a sort of default TL13 droid - reasonably expensive but requires no training and very little in crew comforts. It’s generic enough that it can function in multiple roles depending on software - and shirt colour obviously. I kind of came round to a heavy fighter having three crew - a humanoid, a robot and a robot brain for the craft.
 
Will probably come down to the effectiveness of electronic warfare, how far it's possible to screw with computer brains and programming.

And, if you turn off the power to the computer, how long will it take to reorientate itself, once power is restored.
 
What are you using to get unmanned fighters using HG? The only option I could see there was Virtual Crew. At MCr1 this is way too expensive to make a fighter cheap.

If the fighters are so feeble they need to be considered disposable, adding in MCr1 of software (which I believe cannot be copied in Traveller) is a non-starter. A droid might get you there (or a vehicle brain) at the KCr level.

I suppose it depends on the value put on sophont life, and that is a setting call.
The Robot Handbook has interfaces for vehicles (including ships) so that a robotic brain can control it.
 
I toyed with the idea of actual robot humanoid crew members - a sort of default TL13 droid - reasonably expensive but requires no training and very little in crew comforts. It’s generic enough that it can function in multiple roles depending on software - and shirt colour obviously. I kind of came round to a heavy fighter having three crew - a humanoid, a robot and a robot brain for the craft.
I tend to just presume a robot pilot, no grav, no cockpit needed: just an R2D2 type slot to plug it into. If you cheap out you can get the price down to about 2.7 million but even the survivable version that you want to have a chance to survive (14 armour, Evade/3 software, total thrust of 10 etc) can be brought in for less than 8.
 
Why wouldn't you scale these up to the battle riders that carry capital ship killing weapons? Why risk a single life when you can have virtual crew, robots et al operate your warships...

The people can stay on the carriers, tenders and battle directors, ready to jump away if the battle goes against them...

the sad thing is if you apply MgT rules and supplements as written this is how it would be done, and only the Hivers value life enough to do it.
 
Why wouldn't you scale these up to the battle riders that carry capital ship killing weapons? Why risk a single life when you can have virtual crew, robots et al operate your warships...

The people can stay on the carriers, tenders and battle directors, ready to jump away if the battle goes against them...

the sad thing is if you apply MgT rules and supplements as written this is how it would be done, and only the Hivers value life enough to do it.
By the rules as written, you’re absolutely right.
 
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