Ship's Fabricator

[mavikfelna]

I need some help. Thanks to @Terry Mixon I realize I need a fabricator on my TL12 exploration vessel in my current game. I don't have a huge ship's fund but I can pull on a megacredit if I have to. We have a workshop to put in so we're good there. So on to the questions.

What size TL13 fabricator would you recommend for a 200 ton, TL12 exploration vessel that also does a fair bit of trade and passenger carrying? We have a tendency to get shot at so ship repairs are a needful thing and we're always having to buy random bits of tech and equipment everywhere we go so being able to fabricate things is a necessity. Is a 10 liter big enough?
Also, the TL13 Fab supports a bioreaction chamber and my character is a doctor so I see possible medical use as well. With a bioreaction chamber, can you print food? So could I make good, portable emergency rations to use or sell?
What about raw materials? Do we just need Common and Uncommon raw material? What is the cost for bulk purchasing it to have enough on hand for repair parts and what not?

Ok, so now the next question is, what about a TL16 Prototype Advance Fab? We're going to Darrian space and it's possible we could pick up a 1 liter external chamber. Because it's an Advanced fab, we could then have it start making more of itself. If we get it, how much material and credits will it cost to build itself into a 10 liter, a 50 liter and finally a 100 liter? The prototype 1 liter will cost 1.5MCr by it self.

What about a desconstructor? I don't know where the rules for those are. I know they exist because they're in @Arkathan's spreadsheet but no idea how to use them. I assume they can take something like a raw asteroid and break it down into it's molecular parts for use in a fab that is capable of using that kind of raw material? How much would it be to add a deconstructor to the TL16 Prototype Adanced Fab?

 

[Terry Mixon]

I need some help. Thanks to @Terry Mixon I realize I need a fabricator on my TL12 exploration vessel in my current game. I don't have a huge ship's fund but I can pull on a megacredit if I have to. We have a workshop to put in so we're good there. So on to the questions.

My work here is progressing nicely.

What size TL13 fabricator would you recommend for a 200 ton, TL12 exploration vessel that also does a fair bit of trade and passenger carrying? We have a tendency to get shot at so ship repairs are a needful thing and we're always having to buy random bits of tech and equipment everywhere we go so being able to fabricate things is a necessity. Is a 10 liter big enough?

This really depends. Some things can be fabricated in sections for later assembly. Others can't. 10 chamber liters is pretty small. 10 liters (the same as 10 chamber liters) is a cube 14.33 inches on a side. You could make it shaped differently, but those are your constraints. Is it enough? Only you can say.

Also, the TL13 Fab supports a bioreaction chamber and my character is a doctor so I see possible medical use as well. With a bioreaction chamber, can you print food? So could I make good, portable emergency rations to use or sell?

Yes.

What about raw materials? Do we just need Common and Uncommon raw material? What is the cost for bulk purchasing it to have enough on hand for repair parts and what not?

It isn't spelled out, so you literally have to come up with your own rules or use something figured out by others to explain the powdered Unobtainium required.

Ok, so now the next question is, what about a TL16 Prototype Advance Fab? We're going to Darrian space and it's possible we could pick up a 1 liter external chamber. Because it's an Advanced fab, we could then have it start making more of itself. If we get it, how much material and credits will it cost to build itself into a 10 liter, a 50 liter and finally a 100 liter? The prototype 1 liter will cost 1.5MCr by it self.

The rules say that robotics and other expensive items are pricy. 2D x 10% gets an average of 70% of the cost of buying it.

"Fabricators require materials equal to the mass of the object created. These may be everything from simple powders to rare earths or other required materials, depending on the final product. In general, these materials cost 50% of the cost of a similar purchased product, although those composed of purely common materials may have as low as a 10% material cost and those requiring rare elements may cost more to fabricate in small batches than to purchase from a manufacturer able to acquire materials in bulk. Optionally, the Referee can impose a 1D x 10% materials cost for most products and a 2D x 10% materials cost for computers, robots and complicated electronic machinery."

What about a desconstructor? I don't know where the rules for those are. I know they exist because they're in @Arkathan's spreadsheet but no idea how to use them. I assume they can take something like a raw asteroid and break it down into it's molecular parts for use in a fab that is capable of using that kind of raw material? How much would it be to add a deconstructor to the TL16 Prototype Adanced Fab?

Robot Handbook, page 119. Good news! If you get the Advanced Fabricator, Geir has said that it includes Deconstruction Chamber capability!

 

[mavikfelna]

My work here is progressing nicely.



This really depends. Some things can be fabricated in sections for later assembly. Others can't. 10 chamber liters is pretty small. 10 liters (the same as 10 chamber liters) is a cube 14.33 inches on a side. You could make it shaped differently, but those are your constraints. Is it enough? Only you can say.



Yes.



It isn't spelled out, so you literally have to come up with your own rules or use something figured out by others to explain the powdered Unobtainium required.



The rules say that robotics and other expensive items are pricy. 2D x 10% gets an average of 70% of the cost of buying it.

"Fabricators require materials equal to the mass of the object created. These may be everything from simple powders to rare earths or other required materials, depending on the final product. In general, these materials cost 50% of the cost of a similar purchased product, although those composed of purely common materials may have as low as a 10% material cost and those requiring rare elements may cost more to fabricate in small batches than to purchase from a manufacturer able to acquire materials in bulk. Optionally, the Referee can impose a 1D x 10% materials cost for most products and a 2D x 10% materials cost for computers, robots and complicated electronic machinery."


Robot Handbook, page 119. Good news! If you get the Advanced Fabricator, Geir has said that it includes Deconstruction Chamber capability!

View attachment 5747

Ok, so what size would you recommend for the TL13 fab unit? Would it be better to get an external unit? From what you said above, it sounds like even a 20-liter fab would too small. Does an external unit still count as a bioreactor?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Ok, so what size would you recommend for the TL13 fab unit? Would it be better to get an external unit? From what you said above, it sounds like even a 20-liter fab would too small. Does an external unit still count as a bioreactor?

A bioreaction chamber says it is a sealed environment, so that pretty much rules out an external fabricator for that, but you could buy it separate and have an external fabricator for everything else.

Here is the writeup for an external fabricator.

"A fabricator’s complexity limitation assumes an enclosed fabrication chamber; external fabricators cannot be as precise. Prior to TL17, external fabricators can only create items three or more Tech Levels less advanced than the device. An external fabricator requires twice the amount of time to complete an item but its mass, volume and cost is only 75% as much as a similarly scaled enclosed fabrication chamber. By moving either the fabricator or a construction platform, an external fabricator can create arbitrarily large items, given enough time and raw materials. External fabricators are available in standard sizes 10 times larger than standard enclosed fabricators."

Your small example fabricator could handle most things, but note the -3 TL limit as opposed to the normal -2. That goes away with an Advanced version. Get a tiny little 1 chamber liter external Advanced Fabricator and go to town duplicating it. Slowly.

 

[mavikfelna]

A bioreaction chamber says it is a sealed environment, so that pretty much rules out an external fabricator for that, but you could buy it separate and have an external fabricator for everything else.

Here is the writeup for an external fabricator.

"A fabricator’s complexity limitation assumes an enclosed fabrication chamber; external fabricators cannot be as precise. Prior to TL17, external fabricators can only create items three or more Tech Levels less advanced than the device. An external fabricator requires twice the amount of time to complete an item but its mass, volume and cost is only 75% as much as a similarly scaled enclosed fabrication chamber. By moving either the fabricator or a construction platform, an external fabricator can create arbitrarily large items, given enough time and raw materials. External fabricators are available in standard sizes 10 times larger than standard enclosed fabricators."

Your small example fabricator could handle most things, but note the -3 TL limit as opposed to the normal -2. That goes away with an Advanced version. Get a tiny little 1 chamber liter external Advanced Fabricator and go to town duplicating it. Slowly.

Yes, that's why I was getting the Prototype as an external.
But, I want the bio chamber so either get one separately or pick up a TL13 standard fab. But I would at least what, 30 liters, to make cloned parts for healing? That's 1.5MCr and just in range price wise.

 

[J. L. Brown]

A couple things -- that example 'Deconstruction Chamber' should really be labeled as a TL-13 'Enhanced Deconstruction Chamber'. Since it produces schematics suitable for use with a TL-13 Enhanced Fabricator, it stands to reason that it can only produce designs for things the Fab can build -- ie, TL-11 (or lower) stuff only.

Presumably there are TL-14+ 'Enhanced' Fabbers and Deconstruction Chambers (which work on stuff up to TL-12), too -- but we have absolutely no guidance on them.

Second -- having a TL-16 fabrication chamber is very different from having a bunch of TL-16 schematics for that fabricator to work from. If you want to build a TL-16 (prototype) 'Advanced' Fabber, then you will need the schematics for it. Fabbers of different sizes are different schematics.

The way the rules work, Manufacturing Plants convert Credits into Goods. Fabbers are even more hand-wavy, so this is very much a 'write your own house-rules' area.


[Edit:] I have been a bit unhappy with the Fabricator rules as they were laid out; so I posted my take here: https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/questions-about-fabrication-chambers.124097/ -- no promises, I feel these are still unfinished. But if your want something to start from, they might be useful for inspiration. [/Edit]

 

[rinku]

As far as size goes, some things can be printed in sections and assembled. Other things... not so much.

If you're planning on fabricating organics, you would really need a model large enough to do the object in one go, otherwise at best you're looking at microsurgery for assembly. That likely applies to complex equipment too - even if it's possible to print a laser cannon in 10% chunks, putting it together may not be practical. That doesn't preclude printing parts for later assembly, but the largest dimension of the fabricating space is a hard limit on the size of the parts fabricated.

Reasonably, the actual dimensions need to be defined, not just the volume. Although you could assume a cube of side (volume)^1/3 by default; a 30 litre one (30,000 cubic centimetres) would be a cube with 31cm sides. You could print a brain, heart, or hand but not a leg or arm (okay... maybe a bent arm would fit...)

If you're printing a human sized body, you'd probably want something like 1m x 1m x 2m, 2,000 litres.

 

[MonsterX]

I've been handwaving a lot on fabricators refereeing the DNR, which has "fabrication areas" and Engineering is charged with "general maintenance and fabrication of components" but that's the limit of information on that topic. There are workshops big and small and a "construction deck", so presumably they have many fabricators of different sizes and level of capability. This is fine as long as DNR has been travelling through settled space and buying stuff as well as fabricating things; because they're able to get supplies, it is easy to assume the fabrication capacity is not really strained at all, and if someone needs a new toothbrush, or patches for the hole in the combat armour, they can just print the part, and have the armourer make the repair.

But at some point, I'll have to define it better, once they start counting on fabricators for everything they want, especially if they start taking damage, or needing to print big stuff.

Be nice to know what the capacity actually is. The adventure pre-dates the CSC revision, so I suppose it is to be expected.

 

[J. L. Brown]

If you're printing a human sized body, you'd probably want something like 1m x 1m x 2m, 2,000 litres.

The human body is roughly the same density as water; and varies (for adults) between ~45 and ~120 kilograms; so a 150 liter tank is overkill. Even allowing 50% more space for 'wastage' or 'clearance', 225 liters is very much 'all adult humans within two standard deviations'.

 

[mavikfelna]

The human body is roughly the same density as water; and varies (for adults) between ~45 and ~120 kilograms; so a 150 liter tank is overkill. Even allowing 50% more space for 'wastage' or 'clearance, 225 liters is very much 'all adult humans within two standard deviations'.

I don't plan on printing full bodies, just replacement organs and perhaps limbs. So how big is a pair of lungs?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I don't plan on printing full bodies, just replacement organs and perhaps limbs. So how big is a pair of lungs?

Average air content of a pair of human lungs ~6 litres according to the American Lung Association. so assume double for structure and larger people and go for a 12-15 litre capacity machine to allow for waste volume in the machine. Half that if you make only one at a time.

 

[rinku]

The human body is roughly the same density as water; and varies (for adults) between ~45 and ~120 kilograms; so a 150 liter tank is overkill. Even allowing 50% more space for 'wastage' or 'clearance', 225 liters is very much 'all adult humans within two standard deviations'.

But overall dimensions matter. A human body might be, for argument's sake, 100 litres in total... but it's not box shaped. If ALL you plan to print out are adult human bodies, you could probably get by with 2m x 0.5m x 0.5m, or 0.5 cubic metres (500 litres).

The limiting dimensions are height, shoulder width and torso depth (chest or belly, depending on build).

 

[rinku]

I don't plan on printing full bodies, just replacement organs and perhaps limbs. So how big is a pair of lungs?

Shorter than any limb. If you're planning on printing arms and legs, you'd want something at least a metre long.

Keeping things to round figures, 1m x 0.5m x 0.5m feels about right (250 litres)

 

[mavikfelna]

Ok. In this case, I'm going to be pushing it pretty hard to even get 50 liters due to cost (2.5MCr). That's good enough for organs and I can print prosthetics in pieces if I have to.

 

[mavikfelna]

Thanks everyone for your help!

 

[rinku]

50 litres for internal organs is probably best done as a cube, so about 36cm on a side. Seems reasonable.

You could do heads in that. Or a large roast turkey.

(Just remember to clean it between jobs...)

...actually... what about a cylindrical form? Diameter of 32cm and length of 61cm makes 49 litres. You could still print a head or an arm in that.

 

[Anstett]

The human body is roughly the same density as water; and varies (for adults) between ~45 and ~120 kilograms; so a 150 liter tank is overkill. Even allowing 50% more space for 'wastage' or 'clearance', 225 liters is very much 'all adult humans within two standard deviations'.

Here we see the discrimination inherent in the system. Human this Human that, where are the Aslan replacements? The Vargr specifications for hair patterns? The delicate wing structure of....

giving @MasterGwydion a bit of a go

 

[rinku]

And what about heavy world species? Virushi are significantly denser, I think. Although you would also need a plus size fabricator for those guys.

 

[Galadrion]

Virushi may be more dense than most species, but I strongly suspect they will still be within a relatively small multiplier as far as that goes. I seriously doubt that Virushi muscular tissue in any way approaches classification as a superdense material...

 

[rinku]

Never implied they were. I was just extending Anstett's musings. But they may be significantly denser than humans. Say, 1.25 times?

In any case, it all still comes back to dimensions, not density. Estimating how many litres of fabricator you will need to print a body or body part is going to be based on its height, width and depth. So unless the print is conveniently shaped the same as the cavity, you will usually need a lot more volume of fabricator than the print has.