Ships cost an Insane Amount
- Thread starter Chuckhazard
- Start date
rust said:
I looked it over. They seem to have meal & hotel costs somewhat inline with the real world. It lists the monthly cost of living for an average person at Cr400-600/month. Those figures are internally inconsistent. But, in Mongoose Trav, bricks having no lifting surfaces can still glide to a controlled and good landing. So, one can throw out that whole table as babble.
In my settings I usually assume an average income of 1,000 to 1,500 Cre-
dits, or 500 Credits for a colonist who gets housing, food and health care
for free, and work from there, which in my settings leads to freight costs
of 1,000 Credits per dton and week and normal passage costs of 1,500
Credits per person and week (I use "per week" because this is easier to
calculate with my settings' hyperdrives and average distances).
I leave most of the other prices unchanged, some get reduced because I
feel they are implausibly high - including the prices of starships. Bank
loans and mortgages rarely enter the picture at all, almost all of the civili-
an ships in my settings' frontier sectors have been paid off a long time
ago and are now cheap enough to be bought with cash on the spot.
dits, or 500 Credits for a colonist who gets housing, food and health care
for free, and work from there, which in my settings leads to freight costs
of 1,000 Credits per dton and week and normal passage costs of 1,500
Credits per person and week (I use "per week" because this is easier to
calculate with my settings' hyperdrives and average distances).
I leave most of the other prices unchanged, some get reduced because I
feel they are implausibly high - including the prices of starships. Bank
loans and mortgages rarely enter the picture at all, almost all of the civili-
an ships in my settings' frontier sectors have been paid off a long time
ago and are now cheap enough to be bought with cash on the spot.
Yep, the Accountants in Space and Joe Blow, the Adventurer and Employee campaigns always bored me.
Just as I generally have no interest in watching a movie where the main character's goal is to get enough money to pay his car note, so I am not interested in RP with the same goal. Ditto paying bills... YMMV
Just as I generally have no interest in watching a movie where the main character's goal is to get enough money to pay his car note, so I am not interested in RP with the same goal. Ditto paying bills... YMMV
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
DFW said:
Income is a very tricky subject for hard and fast rules. In particular, note how the higher tech, industrial countries today (read worlds in terms of trav) have much higher expenses,and much higher wages. It is hard to believe that this wouldn't be the case in 3I, pay on your high pop, industrialised, high tech world will far exceed that on the low tech world in the next parsec. And that is very hard to adjust logically without a lot of effort, so I tend to take the standard cost of living table with a pinch of salt (in particular, I can't really see a noble losing social status if he misses a monthly payment, as a noble he will have found someone to sponge off pretty quickly!). Same with pay, the table that suggest a steward gets 2000cr per month also gives the same to gunners and marines, with, again , no adjustments for higher skills etc. Yes, like most of us I have constructed pay tables to reflect all higher skills, terms served, cost of living on a planet etc, but, certainly in MTU, the game is not an exercise in economic theory.
Agree with BPs post, I find a lot of this booring, a means to an end, and simply want something that looks near enough, is uncomplicated, and allow us all to get to the next adventure.
Egil
justacaveman
Mongoose
I don't believe the salary table is for skill 0 characters.
I treat these salaries as being for a skill level of 2-3. I knock off 25% of the normal salary for each skill level below 2, and add 25% for each skill level over 3 (Maximum +50%).
Steward-0 would only get 1,000 credits/month and Steward-5 would get 3,000 credits/month, while Medic-0 would get 2,000 credits/month and Medic-5 gets 6,000 credits/month.
Starship crew salaries are also treated as about double the salary for similar planetside salaries. These are high risk positions requiring the crew member to be away from home for months at a time, so they get paid more.
These are also corporate salaries, Free Traders etc. generally pay less, and are often family enterprises that don't pay actual salaries at all. Many of the small ships IMTU are cooperatives that pay out shares after deducting expenses and emergency funds (for unplanned expenses such as damage etc.).
So, all-in-all I don't have a problem with the salaries as presented in the core rules. The core rules are simplistic and just give general (very) guidelines. It's all in how you look at things.
I treat these salaries as being for a skill level of 2-3. I knock off 25% of the normal salary for each skill level below 2, and add 25% for each skill level over 3 (Maximum +50%).
Steward-0 would only get 1,000 credits/month and Steward-5 would get 3,000 credits/month, while Medic-0 would get 2,000 credits/month and Medic-5 gets 6,000 credits/month.
Starship crew salaries are also treated as about double the salary for similar planetside salaries. These are high risk positions requiring the crew member to be away from home for months at a time, so they get paid more.
These are also corporate salaries, Free Traders etc. generally pay less, and are often family enterprises that don't pay actual salaries at all. Many of the small ships IMTU are cooperatives that pay out shares after deducting expenses and emergency funds (for unplanned expenses such as damage etc.).
So, all-in-all I don't have a problem with the salaries as presented in the core rules. The core rules are simplistic and just give general (very) guidelines. It's all in how you look at things.
far-trader
Mongoose
Looking at it from the retirement pay benefit, great idea!
But my numbers don't seem to track with yours. Is the CSC cost of living table really that different?
By core rules:
A 5 term retiree would be able to afford a Poor (Soc 4) level of living with a few credits left over. Hope they don't need medicine.
And it would take 9 terms to make it to a comfortable Good (Soc 7) level of living, just.
I don't mind a game suggesting a methodology, I do dislike one that can't make up it's mind though. At the very least if the table in CSC is meant to supercede the one in core there should be some errata to that effect.
But my numbers don't seem to track with yours. Is the CSC cost of living table really that different?
By core rules:
A 5 term retiree would be able to afford a Poor (Soc 4) level of living with a few credits left over. Hope they don't need medicine.
And it would take 9 terms to make it to a comfortable Good (Soc 7) level of living, just.
I don't mind a game suggesting a methodology, I do dislike one that can't make up it's mind though. At the very least if the table in CSC is meant to supercede the one in core there should be some errata to that effect.
Nice thread, I enjoyed reading it!
Yeah, I only do things as complex as I need to, determined by what the idea or ideas are behind the campaign.
So if the idea is to be Merchants and work towards building a merchant fleet, that is what we do, tracking mortgage, costs, profits, and all.
If its a mercenary group, pretty much the same thing.
If the amounts don't make sense to me, I change them to make sense to me and my players.
Yeah, I only do things as complex as I need to, determined by what the idea or ideas are behind the campaign.
So if the idea is to be Merchants and work towards building a merchant fleet, that is what we do, tracking mortgage, costs, profits, and all.
If its a mercenary group, pretty much the same thing.
If the amounts don't make sense to me, I change them to make sense to me and my players.
far-trader said:
That all sounds about right. 9 terms is age 54. Currently in the real world, most countries have a retirement age of around 65, which is likely to increase to 70 over the next decade or so (many countries have already started this process. Social security systems vary enormously, but not that many end up providing high standards of living for the pensioners.
For example, here in Australia the maximum single rate of Age pension is AUD$701.10 per 2 weeks. Most of this is going to go on rent/mortgage/rates, food, power and transport. Assuming $5 per meal, that's $210, power of about $100, rent of about $300 (and that's NOT particularly fancy accommodation), leaving about $90 per fortnight for everything else. (note: THIS is my area of work, and I have yet to find a country where a pensioner relying solely on public welfare has a decent standard of living. Invariably those countries where the pension rate is high have high living costs as well.)
Now, I'd say the Credit is probably worth more than the Oz, but the figures quoted in the basic book look consistant to me for *all* expenses. The CSC table seems too cheap to me. I think it has been put together using only accommodation and food costs. Add in power, transport, clothing and entertainment and you'll come up with something like the table in the basic rules.
It would be much better to convert your 5 shares into 2 shares of another shiprust said:
Don't mix adventuring for life and survival with safari. Your friends just want new feelings, and I really doubt they would be happy if the safari would become really dangerous (i.e. getting into a civil war instead of a peaceful hunt). And most Traveller adventures ARE really dangerous. The PCs can be kidnapped, wounded, tortured or even killed. But there couldn't be a high gain without the high risk, right?
Firstly, his job is actually much more difficult, as justacaveman already posted. Secondly, Waiter is considered a very good job, and not everyone can get it.
I cannot disagree with you, as long as I'm currently designing my own version of starship building
But a Ref has to maintain the balance. Giving players a free ship just because they were whining about the mortgage is breaking the balance.The players could always settle for one of those 300 years old starships,Ector said:
which according to the core rules should be had for a smile (- 1d6 ship
shares per 10 years, average result of a 1d6 is 3.5, 30 x 3.5 is sufficient
for 100 % of the ship ...).
With 30 rolls on the Old Ships table most of these ships will be permanent-
ly grounded as severe dangers to interstellar traffic, but at least some of
them may turn out to be even better than most new ships.
And what are 300 years among friends in an Imperium that has hardly
improved its technology during this time ...
justacaveman
Mongoose
I agree that giving the characters a ship is breaking the balance. PCs do need to be more mobile than NPCs, and if I want the PCs to be immobile, that's usually easy to arrange (Breakdowns, lost paperwork etc..).
It's your game. If you want balance, go for balance. If you don't care about balance, that's just fine also.
Most PCs are better equipped, better trained, and have better stats than NPC's. I balance this out by usually having more NPCs than PCs, this will eventually wear the PC's down.
Life isn't fair, I just want it unfair in my favor! :lol:
It's your game. If you want balance, go for balance. If you don't care about balance, that's just fine also.
Most PCs are better equipped, better trained, and have better stats than NPC's. I balance this out by usually having more NPCs than PCs, this will eventually wear the PC's down.
Life isn't fair, I just want it unfair in my favor! :lol:
rust said:
Although it has of course never happened to me
, I have heard that automobiles can get into accidents and even a new vehicle can sustain sufficient damage that the cost to restore it to 'original condition' exceeds its current market value. In such a circumstance, the owner is paid the full price (in a perfect world) of the automobile and the insurance company now owns a vehicle that it has no use for and requires repairs to be functional. However, the cost of 'do it yourself' repairs with used parts could restore the automobile to 'useable' condition for far less than the cost of buying a new automobile.Could the same thing work for a starship and the 'shares' system? Buy a damaged ship for scrap value, finance minimum repair costs, operate a less than 100% tramp freighter for an affordable monthly payment.
The engineering rolls to maintain jury-rigged repairs would be priceless.
In my settings this works perfectly well, in fact it is probably the way mostatpollard said:
of the frontier traders aquired their first starships.
Starships which would require major costly repairs at a shipyard of the co-
re worlds are often sold to small yards along the frontier, where "junkyard
engineers" do not look too closely at all those annoying safety regulations
and just do what is necessary to bring the ships back into interstellar spa-
ce - and free traders willing to take a little more risk than usual buy these
ships in the hope that a couple of profitable trade runs will enable them to
improve the ships over time, spare part by spare part.
I introduced this mainly because I find it far more "adventurous" to travel
the trade routes with a ship that needs a lot of skill to keep it going than
to stare at that mortgage coming due once per month.
To tell the player that his character has five minutes to prevent the reac-
tor from overheating and toasting the crew creates a bit more tension than
to tell him that he has five days to get the money for the mortgage ... :twisted:
rust said:
This tension is why I tend to give my players ships. Oh, technically, they're on the hook for mortgages and such, but I typically make sure they've got enough coming in to cover their costs on that regard. Where I have fun is in the reliability of their ships. Think Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive failing as Star Destroyers are closing in or Serenity's power plant failing and the life support only giving them so long to fix it.
Of course, I come from a technician's background. I have a lot of experience in dealing with things breaking and trying to get them running again. So I play to my strengths, and it works for the type of campaigns I run.
Of course, Traveller was my first RPG, and I tended to be a little monty haul in those days. My friends and I were so excited when High Guard first came out that I just had run campaigns where they could use the 20k ton cruiser ships they designed using HG and drew deckplans for. And when Trillion Credit Squadron came out, those cruisers became fleets. After those experiences, a party with a Subsidized Merchant is far more rewarding, yet quite doable.
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
Somebody said:@atpollard
One might even hire a female engineer, lease a shuttle to a "lady of negotiabel affection" and name the ship "Gelassenheit" or something like that
Ho ho !
Let me summarize the different options for ship ownership, for Referee's reference. If you have something to add, please do!
Ship Ownership Methods:
---------------------
1). Bank Loan (the default). The PCs have some shares of the ship, and the rest of the cost is covered by the load. PCs are free to do everything they want with the ship, but have to pay a monthly mortgage. This is the default scheme since it motivates the PCs for adventuring and enables ALL sorts of adventures (excluding only non-profitable ones).
2). Joint Stock Company. The PCs must prove themselves worthy to attract some funds - a good reputation is crucial here. Joint Stock bears less responsibilities than a bank loan: nobody is going to grab your ship if you are temporarily out of money. On the other hand, if the party would amass a vast wealth, the majority of it wouldn't be theirs. This scheme is preferable if you want to give your players more freedom, and it's much better than just giving them a free ship. You can also combine both schemes - if your PCs failed to amass enough money for a ship, the rest can be covered by a loan.
3). Subsidized Ship. A government (or some other power) is interested in having more ships for some purpose, so it offers much better conditions than the bank loan (the interest rate is very low or even zero), but PCs are limited in ship usage. For instance, if a Duke wants to speed up the development of a new world, he may issue a subsidy for the traders willing to regularly deliver goods to that world. Lab ships are often subsidized, as they aren't meant to bring much profit.
4). Formally Not Owned Ship. The ship is formally owned by some power or individual who allows PCs to use it as they want, but can require a service sometimes. This is normal for non-profitable ships like Scouts and Lab Ships. Remember that a retired Scout can get a Scout ship for free, but it can be comissioned for service any time.
5). Actually Not Owned Ship. The PCs are just a crew, working for the ship owner. What's wrong with it?
Ways of Decreasing Ship Cost:
------------------------------------
1). Used/broken ship. This can require great engineering skills and spare parts, but the ship can be several times cheaper.
2). Low-TL ship. It can consume significantly more fuel and have other technical problems.
3). Unusual ship. This one is my favorite: imagine you've discovered an old Aslan ship that was cheap just because nobody could find the spare parts for it!
4). Stolen/missed ship. The ship has its legitimate owners, who will eventually appear, but for now PCs can use the ship - probably with fake documents.
Ship Ownership Methods:
---------------------
1). Bank Loan (the default). The PCs have some shares of the ship, and the rest of the cost is covered by the load. PCs are free to do everything they want with the ship, but have to pay a monthly mortgage. This is the default scheme since it motivates the PCs for adventuring and enables ALL sorts of adventures (excluding only non-profitable ones).
2). Joint Stock Company. The PCs must prove themselves worthy to attract some funds - a good reputation is crucial here. Joint Stock bears less responsibilities than a bank loan: nobody is going to grab your ship if you are temporarily out of money. On the other hand, if the party would amass a vast wealth, the majority of it wouldn't be theirs. This scheme is preferable if you want to give your players more freedom, and it's much better than just giving them a free ship. You can also combine both schemes - if your PCs failed to amass enough money for a ship, the rest can be covered by a loan.
3). Subsidized Ship. A government (or some other power) is interested in having more ships for some purpose, so it offers much better conditions than the bank loan (the interest rate is very low or even zero), but PCs are limited in ship usage. For instance, if a Duke wants to speed up the development of a new world, he may issue a subsidy for the traders willing to regularly deliver goods to that world. Lab ships are often subsidized, as they aren't meant to bring much profit.
4). Formally Not Owned Ship. The ship is formally owned by some power or individual who allows PCs to use it as they want, but can require a service sometimes. This is normal for non-profitable ships like Scouts and Lab Ships. Remember that a retired Scout can get a Scout ship for free, but it can be comissioned for service any time.
5). Actually Not Owned Ship. The PCs are just a crew, working for the ship owner. What's wrong with it?
Ways of Decreasing Ship Cost:
------------------------------------
1). Used/broken ship. This can require great engineering skills and spare parts, but the ship can be several times cheaper.
2). Low-TL ship. It can consume significantly more fuel and have other technical problems.
3). Unusual ship. This one is my favorite: imagine you've discovered an old Aslan ship that was cheap just because nobody could find the spare parts for it!
4). Stolen/missed ship. The ship has its legitimate owners, who will eventually appear, but for now PCs can use the ship - probably with fake documents.
Inheritance - especially likely with nobles; the captain/owner dies with a will leaving the ship to his crew.
Payment - patron 'pays' for services with a ship (probably one they 'acquired' themselves at little to no cost).
Indefinite loan - loan of the use of the ship, that is.
Lottery - hey, its your lucky day!
Payment - patron 'pays' for services with a ship (probably one they 'acquired' themselves at little to no cost).
Indefinite loan - loan of the use of the ship, that is.
Lottery - hey, its your lucky day!
