Ship's Brain Interface sizing and use

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My Mandroid Friday
 
I currently have 6 active characters, most of the games i play are play by post or only once a month, half of them started with Steward. 1 is GURPS Traveller, but his skill set is such that he is trying to earn the TAS equivalent of a Michelin Star for his ship for his cooking, he specializes in Vilani cuisine but he's not a certified Shigulli, yet. 1 is the Chief Steward on the Venture Fortuna and was designed around the skill so maybe she doesn't count. :) The last one got it from his merchant career and he is the defacto purser for the ship because of it, which is fine with me. Also, my Cluster Truck character didn't start with it, he's only got 3 terms of careers and failed to survive 2 of them :0, is actively trying to learn steward because his dream is to own his own rig and he feels he needs to about every part of the business in order to do that, and customer service is a good way to increase business!

So 4 out of 6 characters me have it or are working on it. I does fall behind medic, most popular with 6 of the 6 having it from either background, my most chosen background skill, or first term basic training. Also mechanic is 6 of 6 but 1 of them picked it up later in their career rather than basic or background.

So, to me, steward is an important skill and it gets a lot of use. My guess is a lot of people do not see steward as relevant because they only think it's cooking and cleaning up after passengers, but it's really a customer service skill with a strong element of planning, organizing and managing. It includes cargo management and load balancing, dealing with service organizations and contractors and pretty much everything a ship needs that isn't dealing with contracts or bureaucracy.
It is easy to replace with a robot, and a lot of folks don't want to deal with logistics or passengers, but it can be really useful if you want to play with it, and who knows, it might be positive modifier for passengers when they find out it's a live person and not an unresponsive machine that can't sympathize with them. :)
 
I think the strength and weakness of the Traveller skill set is that you can use many skills for the same task. Players are quite inventive in crowbarring the skills they have into every situation possible.

I disagree that Steward skill implies "strong elements of organisation, planning and management". The skill description allows of "basic management" but that is not much of a bar. Every skill will include an element of management, organisation and planning. Engineers do it, as do Scientists and virtually anyone with a Profession. Tactics requires planning and organisation and even some aspects of Streetwise will require it.

If Steward covers everything a ship needs other than admin and contracts then it wouldn't be a primarily Merchant service skill, you would expect it to appear in Navy and Scout careers as well.

Planning and organisation should generally be something the players do, not a skill check. Where it needs to be abstracted Leadership would be the logical skill to tie it to.

The primary purpose of Steward is that bonus to finding passengers. Unless you decide to introduce an awkward passenger it is something that just happens off-screen. Just like the primary purpose of Astrogation is calculating your jump coordinates and unless the referee actually decides to throw in a space anomaly it has no general use. It is a "necessary" skill but a bit of a one trick pony.

If the Travellers were planning a raid and a player asked if they could use their Steward skill to improve the plan I would be extremely sceptical unless it was a raid on the fridge :)
 
I think the strength and weakness of the Traveller skill set is that you can use many skills for the same task. Players are quite inventive in crowbarring the skills they have into every situation possible.

I disagree that Steward skill implies "strong elements of organisation, planning and management". The skill description allows of "basic management" but that is not much of a bar. Every skill will include an element of management, organisation and planning. Engineers do it, as do Scientists and virtually anyone with a Profession. Tactics requires planning and organisation and even some aspects of Streetwise will require it.

If Steward covers everything a ship needs other than admin and contracts then it wouldn't be a primarily Merchant service skill, you would expect it to appear in Navy and Scout careers as well.

Planning and organisation should generally be something the players do, not a skill check. Where it needs to be abstracted Leadership would be the logical skill to tie it to.

The primary purpose of Steward is that bonus to finding passengers. Unless you decide to introduce an awkward passenger it is something that just happens off-screen. Just like the primary purpose of Astrogation is calculating your jump coordinates and unless the referee actually decides to throw in a space anomaly it has no general use. It is a "necessary" skill but a bit of a one trick pony.

If the Travellers were planning a raid and a player asked if they could use their Steward skill to improve the plan I would be extremely sceptical unless it was a raid on the fridge :)
“We need to leverage what we have,” said the player. “So, Dave is our Steward. He can get us in via a catering service. Minions gotta eat. And he can at least sneak us as far as the kitchen. Snacks, am I right?”
 
The primary purpose of Steward is that bonus to finding passengers. Unless you decide to introduce an awkward passenger it is something that just happens off-screen. Just like the primary purpose of Astrogation is calculating your jump coordinates and unless the referee actually decides to throw in a space anomaly it has no general use. It is a "necessary" skill but a bit of a one trick pony.

If the Travellers were planning a raid and a player asked if they could use their Steward skill to improve the plan I would be extremely sceptical unless it was a raid on the fridge :)
You can choose to make a skill useless if you want, but that is not the design intent.

Steward skill covers cooking, tailoring, managing demanding individuals, catering, and all the sundries involved in running a high end hotel/restaurant. So, yes, I would absolutely allow it to be used to plan a fancy soiree or to impress a wine snob with one's wine knowledge. Or to know which staff to impersonate to allow access to the area you actually want to go. And to tailor the stolen uniforms so they fit properly. Newkirk on Hogan's Heroes, the guy who made sure all the German uniforms they were using were correct and fit, was using Steward skill in Traveller terms.

Astrogation is something of a problem skill, since Traveller had (until Cluster Truck) very limited rules on real space travel, which Astrogation is also supposed to cover. Of course, the "only relevant if the GM introduces that kind of problem" also applies to Pilot, Engineer, and Gunner. :D But those are easier problems for the average GM and player to imagine.
 
Also bear in mind that Steward is the primary (though clearly not the only) skill of a butler. And before anyone starts to disparage the idea of a butler being important to a storyline, I want to bring up two points.

My Man Jeeves. (Plus all the rest of the P. G. Wodehouse stories in the series.)

And Alfred Pennyworth.
 
Way back when... a group of Travellers were not automatically assumed to be ship crew and have their own ship. if they wished to travel they had to pay for a ticket, be given free passage by some patron or plot device, or... the working passage.

Characters could sign up as temporary ship crew to get a trip to another world, and steward was a really good skill for that because the skill level requirement to be a steward is 0.
 
You want to be the Purser, not a steward.


Pursers received no pay but were entitled to profits earned through their business activities. In the 18th century, a purser would buy his warrant for £65 and was required to post sureties totalling £2,100 with the admiralty.[2] The pursers maintained and sailed the ships and were the standing officers of the navy, staying with the ships in port between voyages as caretakers supervising repairs and refitting.[3]

In charge of supplies such as food and drink, clothing, bedding and candles, the purser was originally known as "the clerk of burser."[3] The burser would usually charge the supplier a 5% commission for making a purchase and often charged a considerable markup when the purser resold the goods to the crew. The purser was not in charge of pay, but he had to track it closely, as the crew was required to pay for all of their supplies, and it was the purser's job to deduct those expenses from their wages. The purser bought everything (except food and drink) on credit, acting as an unofficial private merchant. In addition to his official responsibilities, it was customary for the purser to act as an official private merchant for luxuries such as tobacco and to serve as the crew's banker.

As a result, the purser could be at risk of losing money and being confined to debtor's prison. It was the common practice of pursers forging pay tickets to claim wages for nonexistent crew members that led to the navy's implementation of muster inspection to confirm the workers on a vessel.[2] The position, though unpaid, was very desirable because of the expectation of realizing a reasonable profit, and although there were wealthy pursers, their money originated from side businesses facilitated by their ships' travels.
 
Way back when... a group of Travellers were not automatically assumed to be ship crew and have their own ship. if they wished to travel they had to pay for a ticket, be given free passage by some patron or plot device, or... the working passage.

Characters could sign up as temporary ship crew to get a trip to another world, and steward was a really good skill for that because the skill level requirement to be a steward is 0.
Also, stewards were a good position to put temp hirelings because they didn't need access to engineering or the bridge and how many you needed varied depending on how many high passages you sold. So it was a pretty easy gig to get, relatively speaking.

Stewards in fiction are usually shown as sidekicks (Alfred), obstacles (that annoying maitre'd), or villains (The butler did it!), so it is not a skill set that one imagines when you think of starfaring adventurer, but it is surprisingly useful with or without a ship. That campaign I mentioned above, the players didn't have a ship for the first year of play and rarely took passengers when they did, but the steward skill was used regularly all throughout.

Obviously, if they didn't have an expert Steward they would have used different plans that didn't rely on that skill. But it is definitely a versatile skill.
 
Yeah, in the olden days, the purser was basically a shopkeeper on the ship. That's not really how it works in any modern context. Whether that is how you have it work in the future is, of course, up to you.

On merchant and cruise ships, they are a senior officer overall in charge of passengers, cargo, and payroll and have more demand for Admin and Broker skills on a day to day basis than steward.

In the USN, there are several supply related positions that, in Traveller terms, would be the Steward skill. But they aren't paid by commission any more. :D
 
You can choose to make a skill useless if you want, but that is not the design intent.

Steward skill covers cooking, tailoring, managing demanding individuals, catering, and all the sundries involved in running a high end hotel/restaurant. So, yes, I would absolutely allow it to be used to plan a fancy soiree or to impress a wine snob with one's wine knowledge. Or to know which staff to impersonate to allow access to the area you actually want to go. And to tailor the stolen uniforms so they fit properly. Newkirk on Hogan's Heroes, the guy who made sure all the German uniforms they were using were correct and fit, was using Steward skill in Traveller terms.

Astrogation is something of a problem skill, since Traveller had (until Cluster Truck) very limited rules on real space travel, which Astrogation is also supposed to cover. Of course, the "only relevant if the GM introduces that kind of problem" also applies to Pilot, Engineer, and Gunner. :D But those are easier problems for the average GM and player to imagine.
I am not suggesting you cannot find creative uses for the skill. Those you mention are all entirely in scope. You may not recall I used "The Night Manager" as an exemplar of the role so I am entirely alongside your definition and how it could be used creatively.

I was saying that it wasn't a replacement for skills like Leadership, etc. The main formal skill use is in finding passengers, not finding cargo etc. so it is not a ship' general manager (though a Steward could be a hotel general manager). They can of course perform the same functions for the crew as the would for passengers (and if you play with Morale rules that might improve morale). They could ensure the ship was always stocked with life support supplies, but they would not be able to ensure it was stocked with appropriate Engineering supplies. I do not mean simply checking things off against a list, (virtually anyone can do that), the manager is the one who makes the list based on predicting usage, replenishment levels etc. Engineering supplies requires an Engineer to manage.

Of course if your raid can be styled around sneaking in as caterers, then yes a Steward would likely be able to come up with a convincing cover story. That could be chained with a Persuade or Deception attempt, but it wouldn't replace those skills, in exactly the same way the Mechanic skill might provide an advantage if pretending to be a maintenance team.
 
Sure, because Leadership is about getting people under your command to do stuff they might otherwise not do. Stewardship is about manipulating the behavior of people who are not under your command and, in fact, might be socially superior to you. Steward is a social skill, but not the same one as leadership. It has some limited overlap with Persuasion, Leadership, etc but only situationally.

Traveller doesn't have a cargo master skill, though some of the Cepheus versions do. So, you have to assign that to Broker or Steward. Or just assume that stepping on a ship makes you good at managing loading and unloading of cargo in the cases where "How fast can we get this loaded?" or "Where in the hold is this stuff?" is worth a roll.

Traveller also doesn't have a Logistics skill. In the US Navy, the supply officers and enlisted are ordering all the ship's stores, including spare parts and all the rest. They are making the food. They are providing the uniforms. They are handling the grooming (aka barbershops). In Traveller, no one in the military does any logistics of any sort if you go by the Chargen. But if you were going to represent that in game, the Steward skill would be that skill.

Traveller has a very limited skill list and characters have only a small number of those skills. Those skills are massively broader than you'd expect from RL. Medic covers first aid, disease control, surgery, nursing all in one. If you have the Flyer skill, you can fly helicopters, ornithopters, grav vehicles, airships, jets, and little cessnas.

IRL, the chief steward would have Steward, Admin, Leadership, etc That's not how Traveller works. Steward is literally only available to Noble/Diplomat and Merchants. And Merchants can't get Leadership, because Traveller's Leadership skill is primarily conceived of as combat leadership. And Admin is only available to merchants in the Advanced Education table.

I wouldn't let people use Steward to lead in combat. But I would let them use it to direct staff and passengers in a crisis. I wouldn't let it be used to deal with government bureaucrats, but I'd probably let it be used to know the way around ship's stores (technically Admin, which references ship manifests and inventories).

I feel like plenty of people imagine "What's the Rank 0 job for this skill involve?" and not what is the full range of what this skill represents. We don't do that with other skills. We shouldn't do it with this one. Maybe you might add a difficulty level for this kind of thing, but I don't think that's particularly necessary.
 
Good post, V, but you missed Citizen and Entertainer. They're the other careers with Steward on their skill tables, both on Service Skills. Any Citizen (Corporate) can easily get Steward, Admin and Leadership (and in fact get the latter two as well as Advocate, Diplomat, Electronics and Broker in basic training).

Forget Merchants... recruit your Purser from Management... ;)
 
Oh? Huh. I looked them over but must have missed it. I'll blame it being on my lunch break and skimming too quickly. :D I was actually expecting to find it on those two careers. lol.
 
Yeah. So those do make it potentially a quite common skill (certainly there should be a lot more people in those careers than in the nobility and even the merchant marine...)

I think it may crop up a couple of places in the events, aside from "Any Skill" ones. And there's always Connections and the Skill Package*, I guess. It's not a skill that's hard to justify having learned somewhere.

Only Merchants get it as a basic training skill, though.

(*Oops. None of the Skill Packages has Steward, not even the Trader one!)

EDIT: FOR COMPLETENESS' SAKE...

Navy and Noble and Prisoner(!) can gain Steward as part of an Event. Citizen, Scholar and Marine have a "level 1 in any skill" event. Agent has an event that lets them roll on the Citizen events, and thus there is a very small chance that they can also get "level 1 in any skill". But of course, anyone can get it from Connections, so that generally acts as a catch all.
 
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Entertainers use the Services skills for Basic also, so they get it. Citizens and Drifters are the ones who get their basic from their sub-field.

It's actually easy to get any particular skill thanks to connections and the skill package rules. One of the better innovations in the Mongoose rules, IMHO. You can definitely have "My favorite skill-2" if you really want to. But you still don't end up with many skills overall, because they are designed to be interpreted broadly. And, in CT, they were just supposed to represent the things you were notably good at, not the whole list of everything you could do.
 
My bad. I had in my head that Entertainers were also service skill basics. Oh, they also have an actual Steward event, but for them it's just convenient if they haven't already gotten Steward 1.

It's also one of those skills a Referee might just award at Level 0 if it makes sense for the character, especially one with an unusual background (eg. grew up as the ship's brat whose parent was the cook). Background skills are often a good place to apply Rule Zero.
 
I mean, that was the core rule in Classic Traveller. You were never given Skill 0 from Chargen. Every skill on your sheet was something you were good at. Skill 0 was assigned as default based on background. Skills like Driver, Flyer, Vacc Suit, Steward, and weapons were specifically called out as appropriate for this treatment.
 
Sure, because Leadership is about getting people under your command to do stuff they might otherwise not do. Stewardship is about manipulating the behavior of people who are not under your command and, in fact, might be socially superior to you. Steward is a social skill, but not the same one as leadership. It has some limited overlap with Persuasion, Leadership, etc but only situationally.
This is where I take the other route by making Leadership applicable generally rather than as a combat only skill. In combat it has a particular nuance as most skills are not tied into combat rounds, but in any stressful situation having someone with a cool head and organisational ability will generally help.

I get your point, but it is a balance between allowing a player with Steward skill to have maximum opportunities to participate without shading out the player who actually has Persuade or Leadership. Those are the times I like to use skill chains.

Say you need to calm a passenger down after an argument with another passenger. That is in my opinion a pretty clear Persuade (SOC) skill check (as it has nothing to do with any service the ship is contracted to provide passengers - unlike the Sector Duke example in the CRB). I would however let you skill chain Steward to enhance the attempt by offering some extra services, offering a special meal, or by mediating the disagreement etc. Even if you had no Persuade skill the -3 for unskilled could be entirely offset by a competent Steward check without having to subsume Persuade in any way into the Steward skill.

If you have two characters, one with Persuade and the other with Steward it enables them to work together and both get to shine rather than one usurping the other.
Traveller doesn't have a cargo master skill, though some of the Cepheus versions do. So, you have to assign that to Broker or Steward. Or just assume that stepping on a ship makes you good at managing loading and unloading of cargo in the cases where "How fast can we get this loaded?" or "Where in the hold is this stuff?" is worth a roll.
This is a good reason for the existence of Profession(Spacer). If these are common sense or just matters of familiarity then they should not be tied to a Skill.
Traveller also doesn't have a Logistics skill. In the US Navy, the supply officers and enlisted are ordering all the ship's stores, including spare parts and all the rest. They are making the food. They are providing the uniforms. They are handling the grooming (aka barbershops). In Traveller, no one in the military does any logistics of any sort if you go by the Chargen. But if you were going to represent that in game, the Steward skill would be that skill.
Maybe this is a difference in perspective. In my experience (UK Army Logistics) each logistic role is a trade (Profession) and whilst they are now bundled into a single organisation each arose from its own forming corps. Mess orderlies (orig. Army Catering Corps) do not order engineering spares but cook, serve and manage food inventory and messing arrangements as well as conducting meal planning and at higher levels will manage nutritional aspects of rations. Supply Chain Operators (orig. Royal Army Ordnance Corps) manage inventory for the entire army from socks to tank spares many of them are IT specialists. Drivers (Orig. Royal Corps of Transport) do the actual moving many are trained in every class of vehicle the army uses and some are trained to drive trains.

In game terms each of those trades would have a number of Traveller Skills associated with it. Steward might be one of those skills, but Steward would not cover all of those trades. That doesn't mean that at Unit level some poor schlep won't have to cover all the logistics faff, but it might just mean he has lots of skills. They will probably be at a lower level as is not able to specialise and if manning is tight he may just be doing a lot of them at -3 for being unskilled. As the duties at unit level are however are likely to be Routine (demand extra rations for next months exercise, or drive the forklift to move stuff around) or Trivial (check the weekly fuel stock levels and re-demand if necessary) that might not matter.
Traveller has a very limited skill list and characters have only a small number of those skills. Those skills are massively broader than you'd expect from RL. Medic covers first aid, disease control, surgery, nursing all in one. If you have the Flyer skill, you can fly helicopters, ornithopters, grav vehicles, airships, jets, and little cessnas.
Which is why I am not keen that those skills that are defined are not usurped by other skills by function creep. Medic skill is all Medicine based skills (and will also cover basic Pharmacology and ordering drugs and managing stocks etc.) that doesn't mean they can substitute Medic for Broker if you are speculating in Pharma. Flyers can not only fly but can also conduct basic maintenance checks. It does not mean they can substitute Flyer for Mechanic checks if repairs are necessary or work needs doing.

Again in these circumstances a skill chain could be used by the Medic when the Broker skill is being used to speculate in Pharma (as they know what drugs are most useful and therefore valuable in a particular market). You might also chain it when planning a heist for medical supplies (Simon Tam I an looking at you!)
IRL, the chief steward would have Steward, Admin, Leadership, etc That's not how Traveller works. Steward is literally only available to Noble/Diplomat and Merchants. And Merchants can't get Leadership, because Traveller's Leadership skill is primarily conceived of as combat leadership. And Admin is only available to merchants in the Advanced Education table.
This points up the fact that Steward is a skill, not a job description. The Chief Steward role could require Advocacy, Carouse, Diplomacy, Persuade, Streetwise or any number of other skills. Much of it would depend on which ship the Chief Steward was on. The Chief Steward might not even need to use any Steward skill they had (or even have it) if they have staff to do that for them. Plenty of managers have little experience in the actual work their minions do but it doesn't seem to prevent them climbing the greasy pole (especially if their seniors are equally clueless). Persuade might be the only pertinent skill to preferment.

Admin is not the long pole in the tent as it is available to everyone as a background skill. Admin talks about bureaucracy (form filling) and low level logistics is mostly that (and then endless communications about why you can't have what you need). Many forms will however be trivial to complete and Admin-0 will do just fine and even a -3 will rarely cause more than minor inconvenience.

Leadership is also available from Civilian-Corporate basic training and a few non-military careers as events or rank bonus skills (and of course from the any-skill event, connections and the campaign skills divvy). Companion alternative careers give more routes to skills you actually want rather than ones you end up with.
I wouldn't let people use Steward to lead in combat. But I would let them use it to direct staff and passengers in a crisis. I wouldn't let it be used to deal with government bureaucrats, but I'd probably let it be used to know the way around ship's stores (technically Admin, which references ship manifests and inventories).
Being able to find a box of nails on a shelf when you are the one who put them there does not require Admin skill. I do not need to fill in a form to find anything in my garage and there is a lot of stuff in there. Admin skill is dealing with bureaucracy and officialdom not personal admin and not the day to day management of stuff.

You wouldn't even need it to order from a supplier if you were paying the book rate as they want your money and will make the transaction as easy as possible. If there is no skill check then there is no need for the skill. If you have to get things from a faceless government department on the other hand Admin is clearly the skill. Everyone knows that you are there to serve the government not the other way around. If they don't have a form in triplicate how can they prove that they provided an efficient service to the public :)
I feel like plenty of people imagine "What's the Rank 0 job for this skill involve?" and not what is the full range of what this skill represents. We don't do that with other skills. We shouldn't do it with this one. Maybe you might add a difficulty level for this kind of thing, but I don't think that's particularly necessary.
High levels in skills don't allow you to sub for other skills, if anything they become more specialised. Gun Combat-0 means you can fire any gun competently. Gun-Combat(Slug)-1 means you can fire any projectile based small arm with some proficiency - still only competent in every other type of gun, it doesn't expand the range of weapons you are competent in.

I don't think you need to add things to the Steward skill to make it more useful. It is looking after passengers. If that is necessary for your ship then you have it covered, if your ship is not carrying passengers then you can use it to make the crew more comfortable or maybe you should consider configuring your ship so you can take on a passenger or two (just put a curtain and some camp beds up in the airlock and take on some extra life support supplies, Voila! basic passenger accommodation and a few thousand extra creds per month).

The player needs to find ways to use the skills they obtain in character generation, it is not for the system (or the referee) to make them "more useful".
 
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