Ship Design Philosophy

[-Daniel-]

I feel so lost. I thought a Drive of zero means it has no thrust. How does it have thrust then?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Look at the drive in the space station section, that is the Thrust 0 drive. "Thrust 0" drive ≠ no drive.

It allows you orbital corrections to stay in orbit, but no real manoeuvring.

You can see as very low thrust, rounded to 0.

 

[Condottiere]

Thrust zero is a quarter impulse power.

Since seven point eight kilometres per second is about four fifths of a factor one acceleration, it resolves the issue as to whether you can lift off from an Earth like planet with one gee.

 

[-Daniel-]

Look at the drive in the space station section, that is the Thrust 0 drive. "Thrust 0" drive ≠ no drive.

It allows you orbital corrections to stay in orbit, but no real manoeuvring.

You can see as very low thrust, rounded to 0.

Please note, I never, nor anyone else that I know of said a Zero Thrust drive means no drive. I understood the word thrust to be used in game to describe the maneuvering ability. Thus a Zero Drive can't maneuver per the game terms. Now I read people discussing using zero drives to land on planets etc. That is what has confused me. I have read the entry under space stations and do not understand where this is coming from.

But that is fine, I guess anything people want to do in their games is fair and fun for them.

Thrust zero is a quarter impulse power.

And it is this thinking that I am trying to follow. Where does it say how much power the Zero Drive has? Or are you just making stuff up for the fun of thinking about it?

Side note, I have no issue with people creating their own stuff, I just want to understand that is what we are doing. :mrgreen:

 

[Jeraa]

]Please note, I never, nor anyone else that I know of said a Zero Thrust drive means no drive. I understood the word thrust to be used in game to describe the maneuvering ability. Thus a Zero Drive can't maneuver per the game terms. Now I read people discussing using zero drives to land on planets etc. That is what has confused me. I have read the entry under space stations and do not understand where this is coming from.

But that is fine, I guess anything people want to do in their games is fair and fun for them.

The landing on planets thing comes from the detachable bridge on High Guard page 38.

As for the 1/4 thrust for a rating 0 drive, I believe that is coming from the power requirements:

Manoeuvre Drive: In order to use the manoeuvre drive, the ship requires a number of Power points equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum Thrust the drive is capable of (multiply by 0.25 if the ship is capable only of Thrust 0). Note that reaction drives do not require Power points.

Since with every other drive you multiply by the Thrust rating, and you multiply by 0.25 for a Rating 0 drive, they may have jumped to the conclusion that a Rating 0 drive produces 1/4 Thrust.

 

[-Daniel-]

On a different subject, is there any downside to having a second computer on a ship?

I was thinking of investing in a second computer to allow the main one to be the jump computer and a second, slightly weaker one to be the fire control computer. This would give me enough band width for what I want to do at the TL the ship is at.

Thoughts? Downsides?

 

[Condottiere]

I'm extrapolating from High Guard.

I suspect in playtesting no one really thought through the implications of making detachable bridges capable of soft landing on planets, and stating they do it with manoeuvre zero; that also implies the detachable bridges can fly to the next planet on manoeuvre zero drives, which means any hull equipped with it can do so.

I have my doubts that a space station configured as a dispersed structure can survive re-entry into an atmosphere.

And nine point eight kilometres per second, divided by four, is still two point four five kilometres per second.

I'm not an engineer, but that seems faster than the Blackbird to me.

 

[-Daniel-]

The landing on planets thing comes from the detachable bridge on High Guard page 38.

As for the 14 thrust for a rating 0 drive, I believe that is coming from the power requirements:

Manoeuvre Drive: In order to use the manoeuvre drive, the ship requires a number of Power points equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum Thrust the drive is capable of (multiply by 0.25 if the ship is capable only of Thrust 0). Note that reaction drives do not require Power points.

Since with every other drive you multiply by the Thrust rating, and you multiply by 0.25 for a Rating 0 drive, they may have jumped to the conclusion that a Rating 0 drive produces 1/4 Thrust.

Thank You Jeraa. I think I am following the thinking now.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I suspect in playtesting no one really thought through the implications of making detachable bridges capable of soft landing on planets, and stating they do it with manoeuvre zero; that also implies the detachable bridges can fly to the next planet on manoeuvre zero drives, which means any hull equipped with it can do so.

A Re-entry Pod can soft land without Thrust 0, so I guess it's questionable that Thrust 0 gives the bridge the ability to soft land. A bit of heat shielding and a parachute might suffice.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And nine point eight kilometres per second, divided by four, is still two point four five kilometres per second.

I'm not an engineer, but that seems faster than the Blackbird to me.

No, slower. At approximately 70 tonnes and 300 kN thrust it would have a rating of 0,4 G. If we are talking about the SR-71.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

On a different subject, is there any downside to having a second computer on a ship?

I can't think of any downsides, apart from cost.

At a guess the backup computer is supposed to be a hot standby, not an additional processing node. In other words you can't use both at once. My guess is based on the original High Guard.

 

[-Daniel-]

On a different subject, is there any downside to having a second computer on a ship?

I can't think of any downsides, apart from cost.

At a guess the backup computer is supposed to be a hot standby, not an additional processing node. In other words you can't use both at once. My guess is based on the original High Guard.

So the only way to increase bandwidth is to go up in TL? Interesting.

Thank You.

 

[Condottiere]

Since we're on rules, for computers they're now inherently part of the bridge or cockpit, and it's understood that only one is online.

I'd give each ship subsytem it's own, but there's little room for misunderstanding the intent.

And I believe you have to use a lower rated computer for the back up, whereas I would have chosen something like RAID SIX.

 

[-Daniel-]

Since we're on rules, for computers they're now inherently part of the bridge or cockpit, and it's understood that only one is online.

Just to be clear, the computer is part of the ship, not the bridge, but the ship. The "Computer" takes no tonnage because it is spread through the ship.

But yes, it would have been nice to be able to add some additional processing power without the need to also raise the TL of the computer. :|

 

[wbnc]

I'm extrapolating from High Guard.

I suspect in playtesting no one really thought through the implications of making detachable bridges capable of soft landing on planets, and stating they do it with manoeuvre zero; that also implies the detachable bridges can fly to the next planet on manoeuvre zero drives, which means any hull equipped with it can do so.

I have my doubts that a space station configured as a dispersed structure can survive re-entry into an atmosphere.

And nine point eight kilometres per second, divided by four, is still two point four five kilometres per second.

I'm not an engineer, but that seems faster than the Blackbird to me.

this is sort of where the concept of thrust breaks down. a ship with thrust one shaped like a brick will have a maximum top speed of a few hundred miles an hour at best, while one shaped like say the SR-71 will be nearly hypersonic.
the Harrier has a better thrust to weight ratio than the F-15 which means a higher thrust number..but due to design and aerodynamics if can't go nearly as fast as the F-15.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

this is sort of where the concept of thrust breaks down.

Not really. Thrust is just a force, i.e. how hard you are pushing the craft.

In ideal space it gives you an acceleration as described by Newton's Second: Force = mass × acceleration.

In an atmosphere acceleration stops, and max speed is achieved, when the pushing force equals the slowing force of the drag.


Technically "thrust" is a force generated by a reaction drive, so by definition M-drives do not generate thrust, but the maths is the same. (Unless I'm mistaken about the English definition of thrust?)

 

[wbnc]

this is sort of where the concept of thrust breaks down.

Not really. Thrust is just a force, i.e. how hard you are pushing the craft.

In ideal space it gives you an acceleration as described by Newton's Second: Force = mass × acceleration.

In an atmosphere acceleration stops, and max speed is achieved, when the pushing force equals the slowing force of the drag.


Technically "thrust" is a force generated by a reaction drive, so by definition M-drives do not generate thrust, but the maths is the same. (Unless I'm mistaken about the English definition of thrust?)

I was referring to the game term Thrust...in atmo it gets more complicated for the reasons you stated. a ship that is streamlined like a blimp, or a sphere is not going to be able to achieve the same max speed as a ship designed like an aircraft or ver low drag wedge.

thevarious stges of streamlining could be a bit more details to give max speeds in an atmosphere. if a fat trader tried to go hypersonic it would be heated to melting point by friction,and slam int the transonic barrier like it wa a brick wall no matter how much thrust you put behind it. Where an s-type, or serpent class would slip through to supersonic speeds with far less heating. around mach three even a shape as slick as the Sr-71 is hot enough to reshape itself as metal expands due to heating.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I was referring to the game term Thrust...

Quite. I assume they just use the word Thrust a bit sloppily. It is used reasonably well in CT Striker and MT. "Thrust" is shorter than "Rated Acceleration".

 

[Condottiere]

Trusted thrust is constant acceleration.

 

[Condottiere]

One difference is that on a tank of fuel, a spaceship can keep flying around in the atmosphere, for weeks; then add solar panelling.

Speaking of Fat Traders.

Hercules cargo capacity:
C-130J-30 cargo hold: length, 55 feet (16.76 m); width, 119 inches (3.02 m); height, 9 feet (2.74 m). Rear ramp: length, 123 inches (3.12 m); width, 119 inches (3.02 m)
92 passengers or
64 airborne troops or
74 litter patients with 5 medical crew or
6 pallets or
2–3 Humvees or
2 M113 armored personnel carriers

Basically twelve squares, by two squares.