Ship cost reduction as TL increases?

[swordtart]

Same capabilities, not same technology. 88 Power Points is 88 Power Points regardless of TL. If the TL-11 ship calls for 88 Power Points, you put a TL-15 Power Plant in it that puts out 88 Power Points. Easy. TL-11 capabilities using TL-15 technology. Don't over complicate it guys.

But not the same capabilities.
88 Power needs:
8.8 Tons of TL8 Fusion Plant at MCr4.4.
5.87 tons of TL12 Fusion Plant at MCr5.7
4.4 tons of TL15 Fusion Plant at MCr8.8.

The plants get smaller but more expensive for the same output.

You only way to reduce cost within the rules is to apply the Budget option and save 25% and pay for it with a 25% increase in tonnage.

 

[swordtart]

One way to look at it is that the prices in the books are already adjusted for TL15 worlds. A Jump-2 TL12 drive built at a TL12 shipyard is actually very different from a TL12 Jump-2 drive built at a TL15 shipyard, but the price is the same because the performance is the same.

Or that a TL15 shipyard simply imports the TL12 Jump-2 Drive from a TL12 world, freeing up their time and facilities to build more profitable stuff.

 

[Condottiere]

If you install the power plant on a spacecraft, you have to add in the cost of the volume occupied, as well as the fuel consumed.

 

[Arkathan]

But not the same capabilities.
88 Power needs:
8.8 Tons of TL8 Fusion Plant at MCr4.4.
5.87 tons of TL12 Fusion Plant at MCr5.7
4.4 tons of TL15 Fusion Plant at MCr8.8.

The plants get smaller but more expensive for the same output.

You only way to reduce cost within the rules is to apply the Budget option and save 25% and pay for it with a 25% increase in tonnage.

You keep ignoring the fact that the rules on mods explicitly allow the GM and players to make their own to add to the HG list.
So it isn't the only way. It is the only currently official way listed in HG - but HG ALLOWS GM/Player Mods. Rule Zero applies.

HG'22 page 71

Advantages and Disadvantages are then selected from
a suitable category in this chapter or the Referee and
Travellers can create their own.

 

[swordtart]

You keep ignoring the fact that the rules on mods explicitly allow the GM and players to make their own to add to the HG list.
So it isn't the only way. It is the only currently official way listed in HG - but HG ALLOWS GM/Player Mods. Rule Zero applies.

HG'22 page 71

I don't keep ignoring it. I don't refer to it because that meta rule is referee FIAT, doesn't provide any guidance and makes it entirely an individual referee's ruling.

I have been trying to explore what would be consistent with the rest of the game rules and logical economic drivers so that it doesn't break the game elsewhere.

"Hey, do what you want, it's your game." doesn't add much to the discussion.

 

[swordtart]

Fabricators have been mentioned as making a big difference (and in other threads we have discussed the impact on economics that has).

At what TL does a fabricator actually need to be to impact the cost of ship building. We can make mechanical components at TL8, we can make simple electronics at TL 10 (up to Computer/1 so not that "simple"). Beyond that it is just making better computers and some other stuff that isn't necessarily part of a ship (bio stuff).

More critical is the TL-2 aspect of them. So for example you need a TL17 Fabricator to make TL15 parts. This makes a TL14 fabricator more useful than a TL13 fabricator despite their descriptive capabilities being the same. The only other difference is that the TL17 can build things twice as fast, though as the material cost doesn't change the price doesn't necessarily go down, it just means they can increase their output.

Starship construction is probably carried out by robots and they don't need to be that sophisticated for construction tasks, TL12 seems to be the level for the Ship's Mechanic, Standard Engineering Droid and the Starship Repair Boss (supplemented by numerous TL10 labourers and drones).

I can see these being well within the scope of any Spaceport that has a shipyard (Class A). Spaceports are under the control of the SPA and as such are not limited to the TL of the planet (though having a Class A spaceport gives a massive boost to planetary TL anyway).

The thing that has been giving me pause is the TL9 Antique Trader (p32 Adventure Class Ships). The only reason it is TL9 is because its most advanced component is the TL9 jump drive. That doesn't mean the whole thing wasn't built with the use of TL12 robots and TL11 fabricators bought in for that purpose since they are no less beneficial to a TL9 planet compared to a TL11 planet.

 

[swordtart]

Electronics drop in price and or size at each tech level.
There is no reason to believe that the electronics on a ship would be any different.
So while not everything on a ship could benefit from TL efficiencies, many systems could.
At this point it is each individual GM doing the decision making on that.
Fabricators change the game.

To be clear, the Retrotech rule does not apply to any device that has an electronic component. CSC and other source books explicitly state when the Retrotech rule applies.

The Proto / Retro Tech on P10 of the CSC explains that other supplements (Vehicle Guide, High Guard etc.) have their own rules regarding TL advances.

The Electronics section on CSC p73 explicitly states that Proto and Retrotech rules applies to items in that section of the book (there is a similar paragraph in the Computers and Communications section). The Robot Handbook allows the Retrotech rule to apply to Robot Brains From Very Advanced onward, prior to that they follow the table in the book. The Core Rulebook permits it for computers (but not for what are evidently electronic devices listed in other sections - you have to wait for CSC for that).

Neither the Vehicle Guide nor High Guard reference the Retrotech rule at all.

It is clear to me that the Retrotech rule is designed to represent the rapid reduction in cost of consumer electronics that the vigorous competition in that sector traditionally drives.

You are of course free to ignore this under Rule Zero but if you do you are running without safeties and should not be surprised when your players just travel to the nearest TL15 system and load up on everything they can afford and overpower the character abilities with electronic gizmos.

 

[Condottiere]

The problem with adding untested advantages and disadvantages for technology is both unbalancing the game mechanism(s), inappropriate for the setting, and disingenuity.

​

 

[MasterGwydion]

But not the same capabilities.
88 Power needs:
8.8 Tons of TL8 Fusion Plant at MCr4.4.
5.87 tons of TL12 Fusion Plant at MCr5.7
4.4 tons of TL15 Fusion Plant at MCr8.8.

The plants get smaller but more expensive for the same output.

You only way to reduce cost within the rules is to apply the Budget option and save 25% and pay for it with a 25% increase in tonnage.

Looks like the same capabilities to Me.

When you buy a power plant, do you say, "I need an 88 Power Point Power Plant." Or do you say, "Give Me a 8.8MCr Power plant."?

When you buy an M-Drive, do you say, "I want an M-2 Drive." or do you say, "Please give Me 4MCr worth of M-Drive."?

Same capabilities.

If I buy a new water tank for My house, I say, "Give Me a new 500-gallon tank." I don't say, "Give Me $200 worth of water tank."

The capability is its total performance numbers.

 

[Arkathan]

I have been trying to explore what would be consistent with the rest of the game rules and logical economic drivers so that it doesn't break the game elsewhere.

Then there is nothing to explore and nothing to discuss, because the book tells you what to do.

The OP was wanting to discuss options not in the book.

 

[swordtart]

Looks like the same capabilities to Me.

When you buy a power plant, do you say, "I need an 88 Power Point Power Plant." Or do you say, "Give Me a 8.8MCr Power plant."?

When you buy an M-Drive, do you say, "I want an M-2 Drive." or do you say, "Please give Me 4MCr worth of M-Drive."?

Same capabilities.

If I buy a new water tank for My house, I say, "Give Me a new 500-gallon tank." I don't say, "Give Me $200 worth of water tank."

The capability is its total performance numbers.

It's not the cost so much, it is the size change.

I was assuming performance included the volume to power ratio. When specifying missile engines systems we generally had a dimensional requirement as well as a thrust requirement. We also had a cost criteria but you generally have to trade that (and it is the cost reduction we were talking about).

 

[swordtart]

Then there is nothing to explore and nothing to discuss, because the book tells you what to do.

The OP was wanting to discuss options not in the book.

Am I missing a rule for cost reduction?

Sounded to me like they were looking for something in the rules.

YMMV.

 

[Arkathan]

Now read his next couple of posts, once told he wasn't missing much from the rules
You can't adds nothing.
Try this or what-about IS the conversation.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, acceleration factor/ten rockets take up twenty percent of volume.

Fuel for an hour would be another twenty five percent.

Default.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, acceleration factor/ten rockets take up twenty percent of volume.

Fuel for an hour would be another twenty five percent.

Default.

That's 5'714.285714285714 starbux for a single standard missile rocket motor.

Assuming the shell is ungravitated streamlined, that's twenty four hundred starbux.

Fuel at 20.8333333333333 kilogrammes, or 291.6666666666667 litres.

Presumably refined, retails at 10.41666666666667 starbux.

 

[Sageryne]

Except as of the SOM, you no longer need shipyards to perform maintenance, you just have to carry sufficient Supply Units and/or Spare Parts.

Is there any table or formula that tells you how many tons of spare parts you need to carry for “field maintenance”?

 

[Arkathan]

Is there any table or formula that tells you how many tons of spare parts you need to carry for “field maintenance”?

The tonnage required is on HG22 pg 53. The tonnage you use informs you as to how often you need to resupply
The cost is calculated as the ship's maintenance plus life support.

Using those supplies to make repairs requires new resupply quickly unless you also carry tons of repair parts for the purpose of repairing combat damage.

 

[swordtart]

Except as of the SOM, you no longer need shipyards to perform maintenance, you just have to carry sufficient Supply Units and/or Spare Parts.

How does this work? I can see the SUs required per day as tonnage in High Guard, but I couldn't find any cost for an SU or how they actually work in principle. What is the SOM?

 

[Arkathan]

Starship Operator's Manual.

The Supply Units are parts and life support/food consumables, so the monthly sum of maintenance and life support would be the cost of the SU's for a month, which can then be projected/prorated for the length of a mission/100 days.

 

[swordtart]

Starship Operator's Manual.

The Supply Units are parts and life support/food consumables, so the monthly sum of maintenance and life support would be the cost of the SU's for a month, which can then be projected/prorated for the length of a mission/100 days.

OK. So you can just reverse engineer the cost. That makes sense.
Thanks.