Ship cost reduction as TL increases?

[Sageryne]

Hi folks,

I have a question. I have not been able to find an answer in High Guard.

Let say you are building a brand new Jump-2 ship in a TL15 shipyard. Shouldn't there be a discount for really old, very well established technology?

Jump-2 drives are available at TL11. Given that the shipyard is building it at TL15, shouldn't the cost be reduced? Or the size be reduced?

To give a real world example, Earth is currently about TL7. "Modern" cartridge based firearms started to dominate the battlefields at TL3 (starting about the US Civil War, more or less). A modern TL7 (four TL later) automated factory could crank out thousands of high quality, very dependable firearms and exceptionally high quality controlled ammunition much more quickly, efficiently, and cheaply that a TL3 factory. Shouldn't there be some sort of cost reduction or quality bonus?

Am I missing a rule for cost reduction?

TTYL

- Kerry

 

[Arkathan]

HG22 pg 35 gives a TL reduction in volume and cost for up to three TLs, but only for Spinal Mounts.
pg 70 has budget items where you give them a disadvantage to make them cheaper.
Other than that there is no official mechanism to reduce cost of a ship by TL. Just the 10% standard design bonus.

I house ruled the Spinal Mount TL cost reduction into my ship designer, because to me it makes sense.
With my designer, use of the cost reduction blocks the advantages possible starting on page 70.
Using rule Zero for your table, you can do the same - or something entirely different.

 

[Vormaerin]

There is no such rule. Not only would that add complication to little value, but there's no obvious values to assign to that. Are cars today cheaper than cars in the past, adjusting for inflation? Or just made better, faster, and with more features?

 

[Arkathan]

Now do computers and radios. Don't forget that supercomputer that you make calls on that fits in your pocket.
But the only current rule is Spinals and budget models that suck in some way.

We assume that ships are not subject to the kind of planned obsolescence that plagues the auto industry (as a feature).

 

[Sageryne]

Hi Arkathan,

The table you referenced:



Is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of.

I like your suggestion to use them similar to the Customizing Ships (High Guard, page 70) methodology. That would address Voraerin's concern about adding complication, since it would simply be adding options to an existing rule.

Jump drives, manoeuvre drives, power plants, weapons and screens already have a "Size Reduction" advantage. It would be a matter of adding a "cost reduction" option.

- Kerry

 

[Arkathan]

Yes. I only implemented it on the systems that allow advantages, and I do not allow mixing the cost reduction with advantages or disadvantages.
Normal Cost of a Type S scout: 41.045 MCr/36.945 MCr
vs one built at TL 15

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, you subcontract it to a lower teched system shipyard, and pay with technological level fifteen currency.

 

[agentwigggles]

The lower TL thing being cheaper is already baked in. You can add advantages if the ship TL is higher then the drive tl. Which makes it more expensive. If you opt out, its cheaper. And you can make it cheaper still with disads.

 

[Condottiere]

One disadvantage.

 

[Arkathan]

One disadvantage.

Never Mind. I had a GCE.
Deleted thinking you could use budget more than once. You can't.

 

[ottarrus]

Hi folks,

I have a question. I have not been able to find an answer in High Guard.

Let say you are building a brand new Jump-2 ship in a TL15 shipyard. Shouldn't there be a discount for really old, very well established technology?

Jump-2 drives are available at TL11. Given that the shipyard is building it at TL15, shouldn't the cost be reduced? Or the size be reduced?

To give a real world example, Earth is currently about TL7. "Modern" cartridge based firearms started to dominate the battlefields at TL3 (starting about the US Civil War, more or less). A modern TL7 (four TL later) automated factory could crank out thousands of high quality, very dependable firearms and exceptionally high quality controlled ammunition much more quickly, efficiently, and cheaply that a TL3 factory. Shouldn't there be some sort of cost reduction or quality bonus?

Am I missing a rule for cost reduction?

TTYL

- Kerry

Simple answer: Nope. That discount is already taken into account in the pricing.
And to debunk your logic with your firearm example, I'm a Civil War reenactor and our muzzle loading black powder muskets range from US-$1200-1500 brand new... about triple the cost of an average modern bolt-action deer rifle and equal to the cost of a NICE bolt action deer rifle.
Just puttin' that out for consideration.

 

[Condottiere]

Originally, the wording was somewhat ambiguous.

In the last revision, it was deliberately nerfed.

 

[Arkathan]

Electronics reductions are not factored in. Yet.
Consider that obsolete tech weapon printed in a TL12 fabricator.

The replica guns are niche products. The current price has more to do with that than an ability to make a firearm.
Adjusted for inflation, $1500 now would be $48 then.
Standard issue rifles were under $15 then ($480 adjusted)
The Spencer's and Henry's were between $38 and $65

 

[Condottiere]

Lock, stock, and barrel, were state of the art.

I used to watch Westerns, and wondered why the Winchesters that they were selling to the Indians, were so carefully crated.

 

[Sageryne]

The lower TL thing being cheaper is already baked in. You can add advantages if the ship TL is higher then the drive tl. Which makes it more expensive. If you opt out, its cheaper. And you can make it cheaper still with disads.

I don't buy that. How is it "baked in?"

If you buy an unmodified jump-2 drive for a 100-ton starship at a TL11 shipyard, it weighs 10-tons (5% + 5 tons), and costs MCr15.

If you buy an unmodified jump-2 drive for a 100-ton starship at a TL15 shipyard, it weighs 10-tons (5% + 5 tons), and costs MCr15.

There is no "baked in" difference. The prices for two jump drives at two different TL shipyards are identical.

Saying that you can buy advantages and pay more does not make the unmodified jump drive cheaper. That is not an apple to apple comparison.

If you take disadvantages to make the jump drive worse is buying a less capable jump drive. Again, that is not an apple to apple comparison.

- Kerry

 

[Arkathan]

Those of you telling the OP that he cannot make cost reductions are referred to HG'22 page 71

Advantages and Disadvantages are then selected from
a suitable category in this chapter or the Referee and
Travellers can create their own.

 

[Sageryne]

Simple answer: Nope. That discount is already taken into account in the pricing.
And to debunk your logic with your firearm example, I'm a Civil War reenactor and our muzzle loading black powder muskets range from US-$1200-1500 brand new... about triple the cost of an average modern bolt-action deer rifle and equal to the cost of a NICE bolt action deer rifle.
Just puttin' that out for consideration.

I am not suggesting a replica black powder rifle. I am talking about taking a regular, budget, off the shelf bolt action rifle from any big box store and delivering that and modern ammunition to a soldier in the US Civil War, and they would be the best equipped soldier there.

My point being, that modern factories can make things from three tech levels earlier quicker, better, and cheaper.

 

[Sageryne]

Those of you telling the OP that he cannot make cost reductions are referred to HG'22 page 71

That's the spirit!

Thanks

 

[Sageryne]

Electronics reductions are not factored in. Yet.
Consider that obsolete tech weapon printed in a TL12 fabricator.

The replica guns are niche products. The current price has more to do with that than an ability to make a firearm.
Adjusted for inflation, $1500 now would be $48 then.
Standard issue rifles were under $15 then ($480 adjusted)
The Spencer's and Henry's were between $38 and $65

I agree 100%, at TL12 fabricator would be a game changer.

Just for fun, I went to the Cabelas US website.

The cheapest bolt action available was was a Savage Arms Axis in .308 Winchester at $379.99 USD. Converted to 1861 dollars, that is $10.60 USD. Well below the standard issue price you quoted at $15. While the Axis is not the best rifle available today, it would certainly be very much better than the rifles available from 1861 - 1865.

I also checked the price of a modern lever action, the Henry Big Boy Steel Side Gate Lever-Action Rifle with Large Loop Lever in .45 Long Colt. They are $899.99 USD on Cabelas website. Converted to 1861 dollars, that is $25.10 USD. A lot cheaper than the Henry of the day.

I dare say that a modern produced Henry rifle would be a lot better quality than one built in 1861.

All that being said, I will be the first to say, it is very hard to do any sort of apples-to-apples comparison between two different tech levels hundred or thousands of years in our future (I hope). So, YMMV.

Cheers

- Kerry

 

[ottarrus]

I am not suggesting a replica black powder rifle. I am talking about taking a regular, budget, off the shelf bolt action rifle from any big box store and delivering that and modern ammunition to a soldier in the US Civil War, and they would be the best equipped soldier there.

My point being, that modern factories can make things from three tech levels earlier quicker, better, and cheaper.

Well, I was using your +/- TL as part of the equation. A black powder musket is about 2 TL down from a TL 7 AR-15.