Ship Combat

[J. L. Brown]

yes, that is the point I am making. The 1000 to 6000 tons example being presented as my position what I object to. I do in fact think that DMs based on log of tonnage is the way to go and I do not support the position that there should be DMs from 1000 tonnes to 6000 tonnes and not thereafter.

I see the argument you are making, and of course the size of space dwarfs the size of the ships targeted regardless of how big they are at the ranges we are talking about. I still think you are wrong that size does not affect hit probability. Of course, it is a question of how much, and whether it is worth giving DMs; that is always the question traveller.

But if we assume that it is possible to hit a target at that range (i.e. the shooting is not entirely random), but also possible to miss (i.e. the location of the target cannot be predicted with perfect accuracy, and/or the shoot weapon/fire control is not perfectly accurate - so there is some randomness) , the chance of hitting or not is going to be affected by the size of the target, because there will be some error and if there is, whether or not this becomes a hit or a miss depends on how big the target is. The is the case regardless of whether we consider a the volume of fire - some of it is hitting and some missing and the amount hitting increases if the target is bigger because near misses become hits if the target is bigger.

Alrighty; I will moderate my position somewhat -- using a modifier based on the log of the volume of the target will be acceptable.

But it should not be nearly as large of a determining factor in to-hit rolls as range, maneuverability, and relative EW capability; and the current importance of 'ship size' in the way combat works right now is far too large.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

From the perspective of an (arthritic ex-)archer, my hit ratio was surprisingly unaffected by the size of the centre dot I'm aiming at. If I miss, I tend to be no where near the bullseye. It comes from the way you actually aim, i.e.you're aiming at the smallest possible thing you can see...not the button, the hole in the button.
It's a common refrain with bow shooters, aim big, miss big. If I paint a tiny white dot in the middle of a bullseye, and I can actually see the dot, my accuracy is going to increase a ton.
All that said, I have no idea how a targeting computer shooting at something 10000KM away 'aims'. They ain't using eyeballs at that range.

 

[Condottiere]

Triangulation.

And do it over an observable period.

 

[rinku]

Archery is actually quite relevant here, since the issue with shooting at space ranges - even with lasers - is that there's an appreciable delay between when you see where the target was and when the shot arrives. It may only be a fraction of a second, but M-Drives shunt around ships fast enough that the centre of target may have significantly moved between when the tracking data arrives, the weapon is aimed and fired, and when the shot arrives.

For lasers in particular, a limit is imposed by the laws of optics. At space ranges you're not getting a neat little focus spot, but something measured in metres.

If the shot is significantly off centre, the shot may not be delivering enough juice. Getting accurate range is also important; if the laser is not focussed on the target the beam is likewise going to be weaker. The target being 100 km closer or further away than you expected will make a difference. That's the main point of EW and stealth in space - not being undetectable, but to degrade the other guy's tracking data.

 

[Condottiere]

With a beam laser, you could lead the target, and adjust in real time.

 

[rinku]

Yes. That is indeed how shooting works.

But too far away and a beam laser is just a big spotlight.

 

[MarcusIII]

I have no idea how a targeting computer shooting at something 10000KM away 'aims'.

At that range the outgoing radar takes ~3/100's of a second to reach the target and the same amount of time to return to the targeting ship. Once more gives you speed. So the computer has the range and movement vector. So aiming a laser to hit is trivial for the targeting computer. That's if the ship is small and not frantically maneuvering at high G

 

[rinku]

The radar is sending continually and the return signals are arriving continually, so you don't need to worry much about the outgoing signal time, even at longer distances. What matters is the time the bounce takes to return (or the passive EM signal to reach the attacker), the time it takes to process the signal, adjust the weapon and fire it, then how long it takes for the shot to arrive.

A continually firing beam obviously has an advantage, which is shown in the rules, but for a given power input a pulsed beam can have a higher peak delivery energy. Which is also shown in the rules. Pulse lasers add their capacitor cycle to the time the target has to adjust it's position, although that just means a little more tracking.

Further thought... sand may do most of its work by degrading the tracking rather than blocking the lasers.

Additional thought... if gravitics are able to use gravitational lensing to improve laser focus such that they're actually useful as weapons at space ranges... why not a gravitic screen using gravitational lensing to interfere with that? Gravitics comes in at the end of TL8 - it's the foundation of most of the rest of the Traveller high tech stuff. Large repulsor bays come in at TL13; by that point the tech has advanced enough to be able to project gravity fields at a distance... it would not take much of a step to go from there to a device designed to bend light just enough to spoof the tracking data and the incoming EM beams a bit.

NOT an energy shield, mind you, and absolutely not a stealth effect (using one would light the ship's general location up on gravitic sensors as much as releasing flares does on thermal ones). The effect would be on the to direct fire to hit numbers, and possibly on laser damage. Although just reducing the to hit bonus reduces Effect, which should be enough.

TL13 is a threshold tech, so I could see the basic gravitic screen starting then. Maybe use the Repulsor bay stats, with a successful Angle Screens roll vs a target's incoming fire reducing their to hit by its effect (or some fraction thereof). It would also be MORE effective at longer ranges, and essentially useless at closer ranges, since it's only powerful enough to nudge EM, not block or absorb it. Although that could be done as a fixed benefit, with the usual range mods essentially making it only useful while far away.

Or, you might consider this more of a TL16+ thing. If it only becomes viable around the time better screens are developed it does neatly explain why the idea wasn't seen before. But I kind of like the idea, and it fits in with real physics and what Traveller gravitics already does.

 

[Condottiere]

Tractor beams, to bend local spacetime.

 

[rinku]

That is literally how they have to work.

Potentially you could just have it as a stunt ability of Repulsor bays.

 

[Sigtrygg]

A 6g ship can not accelerate enough to displace its centro of mass from the future position circle of a laser with a range of 50,000km, at shorter ranges it is even worse.
I can show the trivial calculations for this or you can search for the previous discussion only a few months back. get the range down to 5,000km and there is no way the laser should ever miss.

The question is not the travel time of the sensor return or the outbound laser shot, it is how fast the firing ship can process the data and then configure its laser aiming array, unless that is measured in tenths of seconds which is very unlikely at TL9+, a more likely timescale is microseconds for the calculations and hundredths to configure the laser aiming array, in which case at 50,000km you have 0.34 seconds of acceleration to change where you will be outside of the predicted position circle, which you can't at 6g.

As to beam divergence, Traveller has magical grav focusing, otherwise the lasers wouldn't work at 50,000km as anything more than a hot spotlight - still useful for blinding sensors and in a universe without magic heat sinks heating the enemy ship.

 

[MarcusIII]

A 6g ship can not accelerate enough to displace its centro of mass from the future position circle of a laser with a range of 50,000km, at shorter ranges it is even worse.

Yes, I did the same calcs about 20 years ago. If you are at close the laser will hit. At 6G a ship can only displace 5.9 meters in 1/10th of a second. Perhaps good enough for a small small craft.