mavikfelna
Emperor Mongoose
Lots of talk about ship combat lately and since I'm having to do some larger capitol ship designs right now I thought I'd start a thread to get design ideas and philosophies for space combat in MgT2e. Note, this is not about older editions, I know alot of design parameters have changed from the older editions to now and I want to focus on current rules for current ship designs.
I will admit, I've never been involved in a ship combat that involved more than 2 or 3 armed ships on a side and all of them under 400 tons each. I know nothing about fleet combat rules at all, and judging from other posts here I'm not missing much but I suppose that does affect designs.
One of my primary assumptions up til now was that 6 armor was sufficient for smaller ships and even a couple of points was useful, particularly if the ship would be likely to encounter environmental effects that cause damage. I still stand by the idea that any ship likely to face environmental damage should have 4 armor, since most such damage is a single D6 and 4 armor will defeat the average. But if you're going to be in actual combat, a small ship needs at least 10 to 12 armor and a large combatant needs to max out for a militarized hull, usually around 30 or go for a minimum of 12 to stop damage from turret weapons and nothing higher since it won't stop the real damage from Med and Large bays and spinals.
Armored bulkheads are nice, but the space may be better used elsewhere. On smaller ships where effects and damage are likely to be low enough that stopping 1 crit might actually be important and possible, armoring your maneuver drive, power plant and bridge seem like good ideas. On a larger combatant facing bay and spinal weapons, it's not going to make a difference, you'll die by accumulated damage before the bulkheads make a difference.
Anyone out there good with statistics, what is the average effect for a typical gunner with total DM +2 with the different weapons? I think most combat is going to start at Long or Very Long range and will get to Medium or Short before someone is crippled so a range of -4 to +1. You have pilot actions of Aid Gunner, task chain so -3 to +3, and Evade call it -2 for the average pilot DM +2. Target Size, to a max of +6 and effected by the weapon mount as a negative vs smaller hulls, Torpedoes, -2 (under 2000), Bay -2 (ships under 2000 tons) to -4 (small craft) and Spinal -4 (under 10K), -8 (under 5K) or cannot attack under 2K. Weapon bonuses for Beam, +4, and Pulse +2, if it's Accurate +1, or Smart, +1 to +6. And Sensor Lock, +2. And I think finally, +1 per surviving missile in an attacking salvo and -2 if they were fired at distant range. If you're trying to call a shot -2.
For Point Defense, Beam laser turrets are the default choice, since they are +4 to hit and the low damage has no effect, since it's only the to hit effect that matters. For the missiles, -2 for Decoy or Multi-Warhead missiles and Multi-Warhead torpedos. On larger ships, Laser Point Defense batteries are the choice, since they will usually remove larger salvos than Beam turrets and they don't need to roll to hit, just for the amount of missiles destroyed. Gauss Point Defense batteries are only really good against Torpedoes and suffer big penalties for high thrust missiles.
Sandcasters are defense against lasers, or missile if using chaff canisters, and add their effect to the armor of the ship against the lasers or if using chaff they give a flat -1 to hit to missiles and torpedos. For small ships facing laser turrets this may be more effective than regular armor but it takes away from defense. And while I have traditionally mixed sandcasters with other types of weapons in turrets, you really should only mix them missile launcher because of the restriction of only being able to use one weapon type on a turret per round.
Screens, Meson screens are really only useful against turret and small bay meson guns unless you have an excessive number of them, but they do remove the radiation effect from all meson attacks so even a single one can be useful on a military vessel.
Nuclear dampers sort of the same as Meson screens but for nuclear and fusion warhead weapons. They should be employed in banks of 5 if you have them. And same as with meson screens, they remove the radiation effect from the attack so even a single screen can be useful if you're going to be facing those types of weapons.
Black Globe Generators, I have no idea. I don't think they are worth the cost but I could be wrong, someone help me out here.
Damage, for the attacker, more dice from bigger mounts is better because it will quickly overcome armor. Effect of the attack adds to damage, but this is only important for lower damage weapons against low armored targets, but my impression is that effect added damage is not multiplied by the mount type. If that is incorrect then effect is much more important. The sooner you are applying damage, the better, so longer ranged weapons are more important than shorter range ones. Sacrificing damage for range is a valid trade so long as it's not a really steep drop in damage. If your ship has a speed advantage or at least parity, you should be able to control the range.
So looking at all of this, here is my impression on certain weapons and defenses.
Merchants and small ships should mount armor 4 if they are going to be using wilderness refueling or vising planets they have to land on without sheltered downports.
Defense boats and small military ships and craft should aim for 12 or better armor
Larger military craft should really aim for 30 armor, or 12 at a minimum.
For non-combatant ships, the regular beam laser, with a accurate trait, is a good multi role choice of weapon but pulse lasers with accurate are a better multi-role weapon if you're going to be fighting back.
Missiles are pointless on small hulls, civilian or military, unless your opponents have no defenses at all. They are only really terror weapon on small hulls and expensive to operate if you're actually firing them. On a large hull where you can mount bays and can hope to operate at medium range, large salvos of missiles are very effective, especially if they are nuclear or fusion. I don't see Torpedoes as very useful, as they have a third of the salvo size and only 2x the penetration power. Really large salvos can be effective, but it's cheaper to use missiles and there fewer specific counters to the missiles.
Particle beam weapons seem to be the default choice for military hulls. They have effective damage, scale up very well, and have the radiation trait along with being the longest range weapon available. Fusion beams have better damage but much shorter range and nothing else is really close. On a military ship, you'll have some pulse laser turrets for point defense and precise shooting at small targets and defense against small craft but the particle beams are going to be where it's at on attacking the enemy. Barbettes are better than turrets for particle beams but for space constrained hulls the triple particle beam turret is deadly enough. Particle beams in bays are very effective but only if your targets are large ships.
Ion Barbettes are an interesting weapon. They are great for pirates and raider who want intact targets. The defense against them, EM shielding is very expensive and not generally worth adding on to most things. Because of the ways Ion damage works, you want to use Very High Yield weapons to get as much power loss as you can generate. Against a large ship, you will need alot of Ion weapons to make any real dent in their power production so this is only useful against smaller ships.
Warships and defensive ships/installations should have a mix of turrets and bays for fighting small ships/craft and large ships respectively. Particle backed up with pulse lasers turrets or missile bays with pulse turrets
Spinal weapons don't really seem like they are worth it. For ships 75k tons and larger they should probably have one since it can kills similar sized ships better than any other combo of weapon systems, but smaller than that it's iffy. Particle seems to be the best.
Ok, those are my thoughs. What do you all think?
I will admit, I've never been involved in a ship combat that involved more than 2 or 3 armed ships on a side and all of them under 400 tons each. I know nothing about fleet combat rules at all, and judging from other posts here I'm not missing much but I suppose that does affect designs.
One of my primary assumptions up til now was that 6 armor was sufficient for smaller ships and even a couple of points was useful, particularly if the ship would be likely to encounter environmental effects that cause damage. I still stand by the idea that any ship likely to face environmental damage should have 4 armor, since most such damage is a single D6 and 4 armor will defeat the average. But if you're going to be in actual combat, a small ship needs at least 10 to 12 armor and a large combatant needs to max out for a militarized hull, usually around 30 or go for a minimum of 12 to stop damage from turret weapons and nothing higher since it won't stop the real damage from Med and Large bays and spinals.
Armored bulkheads are nice, but the space may be better used elsewhere. On smaller ships where effects and damage are likely to be low enough that stopping 1 crit might actually be important and possible, armoring your maneuver drive, power plant and bridge seem like good ideas. On a larger combatant facing bay and spinal weapons, it's not going to make a difference, you'll die by accumulated damage before the bulkheads make a difference.
Anyone out there good with statistics, what is the average effect for a typical gunner with total DM +2 with the different weapons? I think most combat is going to start at Long or Very Long range and will get to Medium or Short before someone is crippled so a range of -4 to +1. You have pilot actions of Aid Gunner, task chain so -3 to +3, and Evade call it -2 for the average pilot DM +2. Target Size, to a max of +6 and effected by the weapon mount as a negative vs smaller hulls, Torpedoes, -2 (under 2000), Bay -2 (ships under 2000 tons) to -4 (small craft) and Spinal -4 (under 10K), -8 (under 5K) or cannot attack under 2K. Weapon bonuses for Beam, +4, and Pulse +2, if it's Accurate +1, or Smart, +1 to +6. And Sensor Lock, +2. And I think finally, +1 per surviving missile in an attacking salvo and -2 if they were fired at distant range. If you're trying to call a shot -2.
For Point Defense, Beam laser turrets are the default choice, since they are +4 to hit and the low damage has no effect, since it's only the to hit effect that matters. For the missiles, -2 for Decoy or Multi-Warhead missiles and Multi-Warhead torpedos. On larger ships, Laser Point Defense batteries are the choice, since they will usually remove larger salvos than Beam turrets and they don't need to roll to hit, just for the amount of missiles destroyed. Gauss Point Defense batteries are only really good against Torpedoes and suffer big penalties for high thrust missiles.
Sandcasters are defense against lasers, or missile if using chaff canisters, and add their effect to the armor of the ship against the lasers or if using chaff they give a flat -1 to hit to missiles and torpedos. For small ships facing laser turrets this may be more effective than regular armor but it takes away from defense. And while I have traditionally mixed sandcasters with other types of weapons in turrets, you really should only mix them missile launcher because of the restriction of only being able to use one weapon type on a turret per round.
Screens, Meson screens are really only useful against turret and small bay meson guns unless you have an excessive number of them, but they do remove the radiation effect from all meson attacks so even a single one can be useful on a military vessel.
Nuclear dampers sort of the same as Meson screens but for nuclear and fusion warhead weapons. They should be employed in banks of 5 if you have them. And same as with meson screens, they remove the radiation effect from the attack so even a single screen can be useful if you're going to be facing those types of weapons.
Black Globe Generators, I have no idea. I don't think they are worth the cost but I could be wrong, someone help me out here.
Damage, for the attacker, more dice from bigger mounts is better because it will quickly overcome armor. Effect of the attack adds to damage, but this is only important for lower damage weapons against low armored targets, but my impression is that effect added damage is not multiplied by the mount type. If that is incorrect then effect is much more important. The sooner you are applying damage, the better, so longer ranged weapons are more important than shorter range ones. Sacrificing damage for range is a valid trade so long as it's not a really steep drop in damage. If your ship has a speed advantage or at least parity, you should be able to control the range.
So looking at all of this, here is my impression on certain weapons and defenses.
Merchants and small ships should mount armor 4 if they are going to be using wilderness refueling or vising planets they have to land on without sheltered downports.
Defense boats and small military ships and craft should aim for 12 or better armor
Larger military craft should really aim for 30 armor, or 12 at a minimum.
For non-combatant ships, the regular beam laser, with a accurate trait, is a good multi role choice of weapon but pulse lasers with accurate are a better multi-role weapon if you're going to be fighting back.
Missiles are pointless on small hulls, civilian or military, unless your opponents have no defenses at all. They are only really terror weapon on small hulls and expensive to operate if you're actually firing them. On a large hull where you can mount bays and can hope to operate at medium range, large salvos of missiles are very effective, especially if they are nuclear or fusion. I don't see Torpedoes as very useful, as they have a third of the salvo size and only 2x the penetration power. Really large salvos can be effective, but it's cheaper to use missiles and there fewer specific counters to the missiles.
Particle beam weapons seem to be the default choice for military hulls. They have effective damage, scale up very well, and have the radiation trait along with being the longest range weapon available. Fusion beams have better damage but much shorter range and nothing else is really close. On a military ship, you'll have some pulse laser turrets for point defense and precise shooting at small targets and defense against small craft but the particle beams are going to be where it's at on attacking the enemy. Barbettes are better than turrets for particle beams but for space constrained hulls the triple particle beam turret is deadly enough. Particle beams in bays are very effective but only if your targets are large ships.
Ion Barbettes are an interesting weapon. They are great for pirates and raider who want intact targets. The defense against them, EM shielding is very expensive and not generally worth adding on to most things. Because of the ways Ion damage works, you want to use Very High Yield weapons to get as much power loss as you can generate. Against a large ship, you will need alot of Ion weapons to make any real dent in their power production so this is only useful against smaller ships.
Warships and defensive ships/installations should have a mix of turrets and bays for fighting small ships/craft and large ships respectively. Particle backed up with pulse lasers turrets or missile bays with pulse turrets
Spinal weapons don't really seem like they are worth it. For ships 75k tons and larger they should probably have one since it can kills similar sized ships better than any other combo of weapon systems, but smaller than that it's iffy. Particle seems to be the best.
Ok, those are my thoughs. What do you all think?
